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Info AMD confirms Windows 11 slow down its CPUs up to 15%

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Schmide

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2002
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It's AMD's software at fault because it wasn't updated to work correctly with Windows 11. ALL vendors have to check their drivers for a new OS launch. Blaming MS for AMD not fixing this or announcing it after the launch is silly.
AMD's fault

Maybe if you actually followed the conversation and read everything wrote and not just one of the post, you would have noticed I've said multiple times ""No one really knows how things transpired."

But people want to keep only blaming MS and even AMD has acknowledge their driver needs to be updated. That's all, nothing more, nothing less. The blind loyalty is just weird around here. It is a lot like P&N in that way.

I've also said the same thing about the fix. This will be fixed in no time and I bet no one would have noticed if it weren't for benchmark tools. For most software, it's a 3-5% loss for the scheduler issue. That's nothing. I'm not sure what the loss is for UEFI. Don't think I've seen anyone tell that.
but "no one really knows" is kind of moving the goalposts considering how quickly the first statement above put the blame solely on AMD as if they were some outsider that refused to work on the issue. Almost a Red Herring.

This is Microsoft's release. It is solely on them to do the groundwork and allow the appropriate amount of time to get fixes out. If parties are unable to make that fix in a given amount of time and they decide to release anyways, that's on them. Furthermore if they worked hand and hand with intel to put in a critical feature for their product and that feature breaks the standard model that has existed for some time, that's on them.

Since we're in no one really knows land: This feature looks like it was made to allow Big/Little to work more efficiently. It also looks like the feature was pushed in at the last moment forcing rushed fixes into the pipeline.

As someone who has worked on rushed releases, I can tell you a small performance hit that will be fixed later is not a deal breaker when it comes to getting the release out. A crash on the other hand is.
 
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TheELF

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2012
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I use windows because of legacy support. If microsoft is going to start changing software so much that it breaks hardware support and ruins the stabilty/consistency I've come to expect then why should I continue to use windows over forcing linux to run the games I play? In my eyes windows 8 and windows 10 are already steps away from the core reasons I actually use the OS. If the developer of the OS is gonna start breaking parts of the code so much that it causes random hardware problems, it is very concerning to me what the future of windows stability will look like. What other drivers and hardware functions will also be crippled, especially in more obscure instances? we don't know until people find out and report bugs. Microsoft either didn't test w11 on AMD hardware, didn't notice the bugs, or just didn't care. This really doesn't sell me on upgrading from w10 tbh.

I do believe this issue is more in M$'s court than AMDs. I think the implicit writing on the wall especially with the seeming intel favoritism doesn't bode well when their excuse is supposedly incompetence.
Windows never had legacy support for hardware, if the hardware makers didn't supply new drivers you where always out of luck.
Linux only has driver support if the companies decide to do so and they could decide at any time that it's not worth it anymore.

Also we had the same issue already with windows 7 back in 2012 where it took a while for MS to implement FX into the scheduler.
 
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Vattila

Senior member
Oct 22, 2004
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I won't speculate about the detailed causes and remedies of this issue, but it is evident that AMD has been sidelined in the Windows 11 project.

As a tech enthusiast and an AMD investor, I follow the build up to the "Alder Lake" launch with interest. "Alder Lake" is the first major product launch since new Intel CEO Pat Gelsinger took the reins earlier this year. I suspect he has invested heavily in making a big splash. He likes to say "Intel is back", and this will be the first chance to really show that, as "Alder Lake" purportedly has strong enough performance to claim leadership. Albeit having a three decades long history as a hardware man at Intel, he has spent a "vacation" (as he puts it) in the software world as the former CEO at VMware. That has given him an ardent focus on the importance of software. In his own words: "Delivering silicon that isn’t supported by software is a bug". He brought his pal and former CTO at VMware, Greg Lavender, over to Intel to lead the software effort. Here is a quote from a recent article at CRN (well worth reading):

"As an example, Lavender pointed to the new efficiency cores and performance cores that will be introduced later this year in Intel’s next generation of CPUs for client devices, code-named Alder Lake. To help users get the most out of systems with Alder Lake, Intel is incorporating a new silicon-based feature called Intel Thread Director that will tell Microsoft’s new Windows 11 operating system how to balance workloads on the two core types to optimize performance and efficiency."


Remember, Microsoft reportedly ended big releases with Windows 10, and since then has followed an incremental update model:

"In 2015, as Microsoft was preparing to release its Windows 10 operating system, a developer evangelist speaking at a technical session during a company event dropped an eyebrow-raising statement. “Windows 10 is the last version of Windows,” he said."


I wouldn't be surprised if Intel has had a big input in Microsoft's change of heart. My intuition is that Windows 11 is at the core an Intel initiative, backed by substantial manpower and funding. I suspect Gelsinger wants to recreate something akin to the good old Wintel days, with a big upgrade cycle and marketing around a new operating system release, accompanied by a new generation of Intel processors, new technology standards (DDR5 and PCI Express 5) and co-marketed OEM systems sold with a prominent Intel logo and jingle.

Progress is good. But I wouldn't want to see Wintel return to industry dominance of past. That era is better left in the past, I think.

Hopefully this issue is an anomaly and we'll see AMD products well supported going forward.
 
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Hans de Vries

Senior member
May 2, 2008
274
668
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www.chip-architect.com
Fixes arriving next week as quoted here:

- The CPPC issue has been resolved. The AMD driver power profile is in the release process and targeted for GA release on 10/21. If it is needed before GA, AMD can share the driver directly with customers upon request.
‒ The L3 cache latency issue has been resolved by Microsoft. Microsoft plans to release the fix in their 10C Windows Update which is targeted for 10/19.
 

igor_kavinski

Senior member
Jul 27, 2020
318
149
76
Fixes arriving next week as quoted here:

- The CPPC issue has been resolved. The AMD driver power profile is in the release process and targeted for GA release on 10/21. If it is needed before GA, AMD can share the driver directly with customers upon request.
‒ The L3 cache latency issue has been resolved by Microsoft. Microsoft plans to release the fix in their 10C Windows Update which is targeted for 10/19.
FINALLY! The bickering can stop now :D
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
17,843
6,819
136
Maybe if you actually followed the conversation and read everything wrote and not just one of the post, you would have noticed I've said multiple times ""No one really knows how things transpired."


Can't take both sides of the argument.

- The CPPC issue has been resolved.
That reflects my findings in the Win11 dev channel. The fix is probably already on my system, as well as everyone else running the latest dev channel build.
 

Borealis7

Platinum Member
Oct 19, 2006
2,816
148
106
Claiming that Win10 will be the last windows released is just plain stupidity. can he predict every shift in technology that will occur even 3-5 years from now? what if suddenly everyone ditches x86 and moves to ARM, will there be no new OS for the new chips? (i know there is windows on arm but you get the point).
the move by intel to "BIG.Little" architecture is another example. existing OSes cannot take advantage of the new technology, and should be rebuilt from the core.

poor AMD got left out and now they need to jump back on the wagon.
 

leoneazzurro

Senior member
Jul 26, 2016
480
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LikeLinus

Lifer
Jul 25, 2001
11,288
539
126
Can't take both sides of the argument.

That reflects my findings in the Win11 dev channel. The fix is probably already on my system, as well as everyone else running the latest dev channel build.
Because it's a long conversation and you didn't participate in it. Let me make it simple. My comment is we don't know who did what as far as testing and if AMD brought this to the attention of MS or if MS told AMD. So, for that whole debacle of scheduler, we don't know what transpired. I was agreeing with you that I/you/we don't know why the ball was dropped on this. I do know that who's responsibility is for each issue. They both equally are because it's different issues.

UEFI driver - What my issue is, AMD is completely responsible for THEIR drivers. RTM was released over a month before the Win 11 launch and AMD is responsible. Again, we don't know if they didn't notice the performance degradation or issues with the driver. BUT, it is STILL AMDs responsibility to either:

1. Fix the driver and provide it at launch.
2. COMMUNICATE the issue BEFORE launch that they are working on it. Do NOT wait until the product is released. Total lack of communication is a fault.

MS DOES NOT DEVELOP THE UEFI DRIVER FROM AMD. How hard is that to understand for people here? Seriously, blind loyalty is insane for any company.

Both are responsible for two different things. MS is for the scheduler and AMD for the UEFI driver. We do not know who told who what or what transpired. But that doesn't mean the responsibility isn't on someone.

Anyways, it's good they will have a fix soon and it's still really a non-issue. Glad it is working for you. I've only got the one laptop updated to Win 11 and haven't had any issues (knock of on wood), but all my other PCs w/ Ryzen are all still on Win 10. I use them daily so I won't update those until the fixes are released. OS launches always have these issues.
 

Kedas

Senior member
Dec 6, 2018
287
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106
I just want to add that 'Update' to Win11 is kind of a marketing deception.
'Changing' to Win11 would be a much more accurate expression, but people would then start asking why change? nobody wants that, because the balance is bad for now. (AMD and MS haven't been able to match their puzzle pieces yet, same for intel with network speed issues)
If they called this Win11 piece of software Win09 would you still think you need to change your OS, it's only a name, don't be a sheep based on '11 or '10', maybe in a year or so you can compare again to see which one is better for you.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
17,843
6,819
136
My comment is we don't know who did what as far as testing
Then you never would have said what you did. And you assume I didn't read it all. Say whatever you want, at this point it's argument for the sake of argument, since this topic is mostly dead anyway.

AMD and MS fixed both problems, problems solved.
 
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Joe NYC

Senior member
Jun 26, 2021
372
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Some people may remember this one, and will not be surprised by the current MSFT-INTC Windows 11 shenanigans

Xbox creator apologizes to AMD over last-minute switch to Intel CPUs 20 years ago
 
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igor_kavinski

Senior member
Jul 27, 2020
318
149
76
Some people may remember this one, and will not be surprised by the current MSFT-INTC shenanigans

Xbox creator apologizes to AMD over last-minute switch to Intel CPUs 20 years ago
WOW. Just WOW. Really cruel and painful lesson for AMD that must have been, to be used by Microsoft like that. It most likely happened because they were too eager to get in on the action and in their excitement, forgot to loop in their lawyers...

EDIT: Or AMD was naive enough to take Microsoft's word
 
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StinkyPinky

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2002
6,596
523
126
oh i like this game! (first 4 are my own opinions)

Win95: BSOD
Win NT 4: 👍
Win98: 👎
Win98 SE: 👍👍
2kSP4: 👍👍👍
Millennium: 👎👎👎
XP (RTM): 👎
XP (SP2): 👍
XP (SP3): 👍👍
Vista (RTM):👎
Vista (SP2): 👍
7: 👍
8: 👎
8.1: 👍
10: 👍
11: 👎👎
I've used them all from 3.1 onwards

3.1 - B
95 - C
98 - C
98 SE - C+
Millennium - F
2K - B+
XP - A
Vista - C-
7 - A-
8 - C
8.1 - B
10 - B+
11 - So far a C+ but it should improve
 

MadRat

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
11,665
46
91
I've used them all from 3.1 onwards

3.1 - B
95 - C
98 - C
98 SE - C+
Millennium - F
2K - B+
XP - A
Vista - C-
7 - A-
8 - C
8.1 - B
10 - B+
11 - So far a C+ but it should improve
You missed 3.5x and the many 4.0 flavors.

People would probably still use Win NT 4.0 SP6A Workstation edition if they could get modern hardware support. CLI mode was easy compared to Powershell. While Powershell had many more features and geee-whiz, the MMC modules sucked for administration compared to the old CLI options for the CPL structures. I won't argue that WMI rocked, but it wasn't like it wasn't an option on most of MS's products at the time. I kick myself for not nabbing the SP7 beta that literally never was officially released. You just do not need GUI's for everything.

Quite frankly the constant GUI changes is just rubbish. Everything they do to make life easier makes it more difficult to relearn. Very few of the macro changes seem to help anyone except hackers. Win11's GUI looks like a garbage knockoff of something Apple would release.
 

coercitiv

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2014
4,546
6,262
136
Originally I wanted to write something about MS needing to deliver a polished product with W11 if they truly aimed at the benefit of rebranding their OS, while also highlighting that we don't really know how much AMD could have done to to prevent this.

But then something else caught my eye, and I think this time I'll indulge in a moderate dose of off-topic with a sprinkle of whataboutism:
Xbox creator apologizes to AMD over last-minute switch to Intel CPUs 20 years ago
The designer of the console revealed on Twitter that the change was a result of a phone call between Microsoft's CEO at the time, Bill Gates, and then-Intel CEO Andy Grove. The decision to switch from AMD to an Intel Pentium III processor surprised Blackley and everyone else. AMD engineers were even sitting in the front row, waiting to see the unveiling of the final product they worked on together.
"I was standing there on the stage for the announcement, with BillG, and there they were right there, front row, looking so sad. I'll never forget it. They had helped so much with the prototypes. Prototypes that were literally running the launch announcement demos ON AMD HARDWARE," said Blackley adding, "I felt like such an ass."
How does this relate to the topic at hand? It warns us to exercise caution when applying common sense and common business knowledge to the presumed interaction between MS and AMD. IF WE DON'T KNOW what AMD knew or did before the W11 launch with respect to performance bugs on their silicon, we should not venture into assigning responsibilities and blame in their hands. Maybe they moved too slow, or maybe they got another front row seat to a public display of (internal MS) political priorities.

Windows is a Microsoft product. Their turf, their decisions, their responsibility first and foremost.
 

DisEnchantment

Senior member
Mar 3, 2017
908
2,377
136
I am sure Microsoft will fix the issue. The risk of collborating only with Intel (as alluded to by many rumors) are too big. They are working with Qualcomm and AMD as well.
Besides Intel, Microsoft needs AMD and to a small extent Qualcomm (among CPU manufacturers) to ensure the health of the PC ecosystem otherwise Mac/ChromeOS will be more than happy to fill the gap.
On top of this, AMD will be the first CPU manufacturer to deliver a chip with MS architected HSP.

In my opinion this was rushed to meet the demands of OEMs. They basically need to release Win11 this month to ensure OEMs can generate interests for the holiday buying season
I don't see any conspiracy until proven

To deliver a thin and light powerful notebook experience on the PC ecosystem which is on par with current Apple devices they are going to need something better than what Intel can deliver at the moment

By next year when AMD launches new CPUs things will be fine.
 

Hans de Vries

Senior member
May 2, 2008
274
668
136
www.chip-architect.com
It is getting even worse now before it (hopefully) gets better:


The latest Windows 11 update from last Tuesday the 12th of October makes things even worse:
(See the black lines in the latency diagrams)

W11_5800X.jpg

W11_5900X.jpg

Windows 11 seems to slightly improve the Latency curve for previous generation Intel devices:

W11_11700K.JPG

Note that this latency test is not from AIDA 64 but another from (well known) Chips and Cheese.
It's a command line tool with source and .exe here: https://github.com/ChipsandCheese/MemoryLatencyTest/releases/

W11_MemoryLatency.JPG
 

JoeRambo

Golden Member
Jun 13, 2013
1,246
1,183
136
Note that this latency test is not from AIDA 64 but another from (well known) Chips and Cheese.
It's a command line tool with source and .exe here: https://github.com/ChipsandCheese/MemoryLatencyTest/releases/
I don't even understand how it can be possible to screw up CPU in latency tests like that. It is single threaded test walking random lists of increasing size, of minimum sophistication. Basically not looking into "exact" sizes of TLB etc, as simple as memory tests can get.

I can imagine two reasons for memory performance degradation like that:

1) Scheduler is throwing the busy thread around CPU like MAD, and i mean mad, it takes ton of context switches to degrade task like that, maybe a thousand every second.
2) There is some horrible problem with some security feature or security virtualization and there happens something like TLB flush every timer interrupt or something like that.

I am leaning towards (2).
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
14,849
5,040
136
You missed 3.5x and the many 4.0 flavors.

People would probably still use Win NT 4.0 SP6A Workstation edition if they could get modern hardware support. CLI mode was easy compared to Powershell. While Powershell had many more features and geee-whiz, the MMC modules sucked for administration compared to the old CLI options for the CPL structures. I won't argue that WMI rocked, but it wasn't like it wasn't an option on most of MS's products at the time. I kick myself for not nabbing the SP7 beta that literally never was officially released. You just do not need GUI's for everything.

Quite frankly the constant GUI changes is just rubbish. Everything they do to make life easier makes it more difficult to relearn. Very few of the macro changes seem to help anyone except hackers. Win11's GUI looks like a garbage knockoff of something Apple would release.
Are you sure you're not mistaking NT4 for Windows 2000? MMC apparently was introduced in the NT4 option pack, but Win2k really used MMC quite a lot. In NT4, stuff like event viewer were just standalone programs.

As much as I liked NT4, its driver support wasn't great and if you didn't have an IDE driver from the chipset manufacturer, you had to manually enable it with a program off the install CD.

I agree with you about UI changes though.
 

Hans de Vries

Senior member
May 2, 2008
274
668
136
www.chip-architect.com
So the bizarre L3 latency (for AMD only) is still getting worse with each new Windows 11
release/update from the Intel/Microsoft scheduler team.

blue___: Windows 10
red____: Windows 11 release (5 October)
black:_: Windows 11 update (12 October)

So what will happen October 19th when the "bug" fix patch is supposed to come ???



W11_5800X.jpg




Some Cranky Paranoid Stuff from Twitter:

Just before the Windows 11 release:


Day before the Windows 11 update:


Intel GOD Pat is promising lots of goodies in return for love?

- A dirt cheap Intel XBOX replacement for Microsoft?
- Lots of dirt cheap Sapphire Rapids for the Microsoft Cloud?
- Some "offshore goodies" which no one will see, hear or know about?

Or is sabotaging AMD's revolutionary V 3D cache concept just to risky?
 
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