Jesus you keep doing the ignoring the rest of the sentence crap don't you and taking a single part out of context.
Here, let me see if I can help you see the entire sentence in context.
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Jesus you keep doing the ignoring the rest of the sentence crap don't you and taking a single part out of context.
Here, let me see if I can help you see the entire sentence in context.
The rest of the sentence?
You mean the issues AMD has with Fraps which make Fraps "simply not an accurate representation of what the user is seeing"?
But okay. I think it's not new that we have people here who have an agenda to protect AMD. Even when AMD is blaming failures on the head of others people who give us normal people great tools to play with.
You mean the issues AMD has with Fraps which make Fraps "simply not an accurate representation of what the user is seeing"?
But okay. I think it's not new that we have people here who have an agenda to protect AMD. Even when AMD is blaming failures on the head of others people who give us normal people great tools to play with.
...you calling me out?
I don't recall AMD telling anyone to use v-sync to fix it. I recall a lot of forum posters saying it helps, and now an article that is baffled by the results that it actually helps. Caveats aside about input lag of course.
Something tells me the "huge advantage" you are referring to is very rare in terms of frequency. In the situation of both users using a 60hz display, unless nvidia's guy frame refresh catches a twitch response, their both off by a few ms in terms of response time.
But, I've heard people can dodge bullets, so then perhaps the response time issue is a valid argument.
No, of course not. Plus there are going to be people who do, it was a general statement, not meant as a whole encompassing generalization.
I don't recall saying AMD did
Which one? All we've seen with is it evens the front end with fraps from users, I haven't seen anywhere it fixes the output end of CF.Few ms is the difference between a bullet in the head or one whizzing past your ear. You don't see it as fast, you can't react as fast, and it takes longer for your reaction to register. :thumbsup:
Of course a casual gamer wouldn't care, they'd see 120ms on their end, and another 70 on the net and think, whats a few more?
I use vsync, in games where it doesn't matter, but in BF3 or any other competitive online shooter... No way.
Someone who spends $1 on gpu(s), has a 1600p screen, a $100 high precision mouse and a top end mech keyboard should, and in most cases probably does care. As well as the competitive people who can't afford such things ()
hyrule4927
Senior member
- Feb 9, 2012
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Someone who spends $1 on gpu(s), has a 1600p screen, a $100 high precision mouse and a top end mech keyboard should, and in most cases probably does care. As well as the competitive people who can't afford such things ()
A whole dollar? Too rich for my blood!
Even your beloved diety - Nvidia has similar concerns regarding fraps, are they saying fraps is useless?
I find it funny that someone who has an obvious agenda to portray Nvidia in nothing but a positive light would level such accusations without a hint of irony. Lets play your silly game where we take single words, or parts of sentences to deliberately put them out of context. We can take the following as facts because all of these statements came direct from Nvidia using your (il)logical reasoning.
Nvidia dislikes FRAPS.
Nvidia thinks it muddles the picture.
Nvidia thinks FRAPS is a bad tool.
Nvidia thinks FRAPS is wrong.
Now here is the entire quote taken in full and in context.
The truth is that Nvidia and AMD simply think FRAPS is not always accurate and not always the correct tool to use. I commend Nvidia for developing the new method that give us more tools to measure even more performance metrics. I also commend the fact that AMD have finally (after over a year) admitted that Crossfire causes serious stutter/FPS problems out of the box.
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I'll play too!
"In our talks with NVIDIA and in past statements made to the press, NVIDIA dislikes FRAPS being used in this manner for roughly the same reason. The fact that it’s measuring Present calls instead of the time a frame is actually shown to the user impacts them just as well, and muddles the picture when it comes to trying to differentiate themselves from AMD. Again, not to say that NVIDIA thinks FRAPS is a bad tool, but there seems to be a general agreement with AMD’s stance that beyond a certain point it’s the wrong tool for measuring stuttering."
nVidia roughly muddles the picture.
nVidia is a bad tool.
AMD is wrong for stuttering.
I'm glad that something is being done to fix any issues, but seriously, at least in single GPUs, how many people notice stuttering? I certainly have never noticed it since I started gaming with a Geforce MX2 400, but then I'm no competitive gamer either. Multi GPU is probably another matter though, and I don't really have any experience with it.
"In our talks with NVIDIA and in past statements made to the press, NVIDIA dislikes FRAPS being used in this manner for roughly the same reason. The fact that it’s measuring Present calls instead of the time a frame is actually shown to the user impacts them just as well, and muddles the picture when it comes to trying to differentiate themselves from AMD. Again, not to say that NVIDIA thinks FRAPS is a bad tool, but there seems to be a general agreement with AMD’s stance that beyond a certain point it’s the wrong tool for measuring stuttering."
nVidia roughly muddles the picture.
nVidia is a bad tool.
AMD is wrong for stuttering.
I'm glad that something is being done to fix any issues, but seriously, at least in single GPUs, how many people notice stuttering? I certainly have never noticed it since I started gaming with a Geforce MX2 400, but then I'm no competitive gamer either. Multi GPU is probably another matter though, and I don't really have any experience with it.
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railven
Diamond Member
- Mar 25, 2010
- 6,604
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It's an act, now ignore him, don't let this thread devolve because eventually we'll be talking about PhysX.
Just walk away!
railven
Diamond Member
- Mar 25, 2010
- 6,604
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Some people got eyes bigger than their mouths. But they keep these companies oiled, so kudos to them!
I don't recall saying AMD did
That PCPer review went live, it seems to support what the CFX crowd has been saying. Even that author, Ryan, was surprised. At least that's what I inferred from his article.
I'm not declaring it is a solution, and clearly AMD got work to do, but there is an option for those willing to use it.
How few? Quantify that for us.
I use vsync, in games where it doesn't matter, but in BF3 or any other competitive online shooter... No way.
Someone who spends $1 on gpu(s), has a 1600p screen, a $100 high precision mouse and a top end mech keyboard should, and in most cases probably does care. As well as the competitive people who can't afford such things ()
I wish I spent $1
I'm sure even then it wouldn't give me an edge haha.
BrightCandle
Diamond Member
- Mar 15, 2007
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Anandtech has said Fraps isn't very useful but pcper in their conclusion are quite clear (as they are about using it right the way through their review):
Useless/even not accurate are all wrong interpretations, pcper is very explicitly saying fraps is a useful tool that shows similar results to FCAT. Pcper have tested it and confirmed that what fraps sees is what the user pretty sees. Its not 100% right but its highly indicative for single GPUs.
Anandtech in their article said the exact opposite, but their last performance tests included single FPS numbers, they are 24 months behind everyone else and have the worst GPU testing standards of any site out there today. Their word doesn't exactly mean much at this point. Pcperspecitive and techreport and alienbench etc are not wrong, fraps is a useful tool for measuring what it measures. It doesn't tell you everything that is happening, that is clear from the pcper report that shows AMD having runt frames, but otherwise its a decent reflection of the game simulation stuttering caused by the GPU and of the GPU stuttering on its frame output.
On multiple GPUs its a different story, clearly its no good for crossfire but on SLI its reasonable except for the fact that NVidia frame meters and that usually means the output is smoother than represented. But the game engine stutter (as tested abt) is still going to be impacted exactly as fraps shows. Its less representative here but again highly indicative.
Fraps is far from useless, its actually a key part of testing. I have said before it specifically tests the smoothness of the input to the GPU pipeline as the pipeline itself feeds back to the threads feeding the frames and this is vital. FCAT does the output well (good results today, well worth knowing) and we now need just end to end latency added to complete the picture.
Useless/even not accurate are all wrong interpretations, pcper is very explicitly saying fraps is a useful tool that shows similar results to FCAT. Pcper have tested it and confirmed that what fraps sees is what the user pretty sees. Its not 100% right but its highly indicative for single GPUs.
Anandtech in their article said the exact opposite, but their last performance tests included single FPS numbers, they are 24 months behind everyone else and have the worst GPU testing standards of any site out there today. Their word doesn't exactly mean much at this point. Pcperspecitive and techreport and alienbench etc are not wrong, fraps is a useful tool for measuring what it measures. It doesn't tell you everything that is happening, that is clear from the pcper report that shows AMD having runt frames, but otherwise its a decent reflection of the game simulation stuttering caused by the GPU and of the GPU stuttering on its frame output.
On multiple GPUs its a different story, clearly its no good for crossfire but on SLI its reasonable except for the fact that NVidia frame meters and that usually means the output is smoother than represented. But the game engine stutter (as tested abt) is still going to be impacted exactly as fraps shows. Its less representative here but again highly indicative.
Fraps is far from useless, its actually a key part of testing. I have said before it specifically tests the smoothness of the input to the GPU pipeline as the pipeline itself feeds back to the threads feeding the frames and this is vital. FCAT does the output well (good results today, well worth knowing) and we now need just end to end latency added to complete the picture.
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Don't bother. Apparently, you didn't get the memo. Nvidia drivers are perfect in every way. They'll even make you breakfast. These guys just like to jump on the AMD driver hate wagon; doesn't matter if it's crossfire or single, same guys will pop into the thread just to piss all over AMD. Same guys don't even own AMD, and some just pretend to. I've had more issues with Nvidia than AMD. Granted, they both have given me problems, but, I don't pretend to live in fairy tale land.
BrightCandle
Diamond Member
- Mar 15, 2007
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Unlike you guys I am not partisan, I own both and talk about the problems that are present on both solutions. My interest is in the technology and making it better, from both manufacturers. I think that is true of the grand majority of people here, while others scream fanboi the rest just roll their eyes and realise its just a poor attempt at trolling. We don't need this level of name calling, it doesn't get us anyway and its time to raise the level of the conversation we have here. The link is interesting for the legacy results, it didn't need the attitude that went with it.
Imouto
Golden Member
- Jul 6, 2011
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That stupid claim you've made for all these months has been busted already by PCPer findings. GTX 680 and HD 7970Ghz deliver the very same frame times and variances. In fact if you check the review you'll see the HD 7970Ghz ahead in quite a few benches while the GTX 680 can only pull ahead in Far Cry 3 where none of the cards did well.
I guess you're just waiting till everyone forgets it cuz you won't ever never admit that you were awfully and totally wrong.
You're just another Nvidia screaming fangirl.
SolMiester
Diamond Member
- Dec 19, 2004
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Imouto
Golden Member
- Jul 6, 2011
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Busted too. You can easily fix it enabling V-Sync. It's a shame that PCPer didn't test frame limiters and Lucid Virtu like they did with Nvidia's Dynamic V-Sync.
SolMiester
Diamond Member
- Dec 19, 2004
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Its already been pointed out at least a dozen times, using v-sync causes other issues, and is a bandage, not a fix!
Imouto
Golden Member
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BrightCandle
Diamond Member
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AMD thankfully has fixed most of the issues we saw in December. That problem with single cards seems to have been resolved for those games. I am keen to see less well beaten track non triple A titles because AMD put out particular fixes for particular games and there may very well still be a problem in some games, but in the games tested by pcper and tech report it seems fixed. But 4 months ago there was a severe game breaking problem on single cards that had been there for a year. I haven't changed my tune, there was a problem and now after a lot of effort and driver releases over 4 months the problem is finally resolved as far as we can currently tell.
It still existed regardless of how much you try to deny it and deflect. That one existing in no way invalidates the clear problem with crossfire.
Vsync is worth at least 16ms latency and jumps from 60 to 30 fps whereas triple buffering in addition adds another 16ms of latency. The human eye can detect 20ms, thus 32ms minimum for triple buffering and sync is unfortunately very noticeable, especially when its tagged onto 16ms of game sim followed by 16ms of render time, 16ms of scan out time and 10ms to get onto the pixels. Dropping 32ms makes a big difference.
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Imouto
Golden Member
- Jul 6, 2011
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Those games where new releases and TWIMTBP titles. It's like blaming Nvidia for its poor performance in Tomb Raider right after launch. Far Cry 3 is still broken and nor AMD or Nvidia are to blame there.
Nvidia fangirls just took that single review and made a huge fuss out of it. It doesn't matter that TR made a lot of reviews previously not showing much more issues than Nvidia. Those differences were negligible and only a numbskull would pick on differences that human eye can't catch... unless it's you and your supervision, ofc.
You're blowing this out of proportion. Fermi had these and worse issues and no one complained. Even I think Fermi were a great generation of cards.
But this new trend of making mountains of molehills is going to stay for a while. We just have to bear with it.
Vesku
Diamond Member
- Aug 25, 2005
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It's good that another aspect of gaming is getting more attention but really the single card stuff was way overblown by a small yet vocal chorus.* Will this be like the color comparison and image quality years ago and last just for a generation or so? It would be great if there was some game site that routinely tested all these aspects on a rolling basis and didn't retire them just because both brands happen to reach rough parity during a generation. But that's a huge amount of work for not very much if any remuneration. At least AA types get the occasional checkup by a smattering of review sites.
*Unless you happen to play fps games competitively for prize money, i.e. ~0.05% or less of the PC gaming population. Have any of the current crop of latency testing review sites included Quake 4, Quake Live, and Counter-Strike in their testing regimen?
*Unless you happen to play fps games competitively for prize money, i.e. ~0.05% or less of the PC gaming population. Have any of the current crop of latency testing review sites included Quake 4, Quake Live, and Counter-Strike in their testing regimen?
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Lonbjerg
Diamond Member
- Dec 6, 2009
- 4,419
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Please explain it for me?
FRAPS showed AMD has some serious issues.
More advanced tools confirms this.
Now why the foucs on FRAPS...and not AMD's stuttering issues?
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