AMD Bristol/Stoney Ridge Thread

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Aug 25, 2001
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Do you think that it would undercut AMD's AM4 / Zen efforts, if one of the major mobo vendors, were to release a new, up-to-date, UEFI-capable FM2+ mobo, with an M.2 (PCI-E, preferably) slot on the board?

Would there be enough volume to justify the effort?

Or were there existing FM2/FM2+ boards, with UEFI and NVMe support?
 

Abwx

Diamond Member
Apr 2, 2011
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Dont think that anything new features wise will be released for what is a legacy plateform, set apart said Carrizo/BR APUs of course...

There s about no reasonably priced Kaveri left (and its UVD is old gen) wich is an indication that they are no more manufactured while AMD is required to provide some legacy support, hence the recyclage wich is nice, surely that the plateform wasnt due for such lengthy lifecycle based only on the APU capabilities...
 

Insert_Nickname

Diamond Member
May 6, 2012
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Or were there existing FM2/FM2+ boards, with UEFI and NVMe support?
Yup. F.x.:

https://www.asrock.com/mb/AMD/A88M-G3.1/

Have one in a friends system, it's a pretty decent board all round for the price back then. Coupled with an 845, a GT1030 and a (newer) 256GB NVMe drive, it's quite competent for a basic cheapish system.

Asrock is quite good at making these slightly oddball boards. We should of course support them a bit, so they continue doing it...
 

NTMBK

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2011
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Oh the trolling...

You dont get it, read the posts above, this APU is also for FM2+, at 33€ it replace advantageously a 2C Kaveri for whom use his PC for basic needs but want an updated UVD, if one wants more CPU grunt there s a 4C sibling at 50€...

https://www.mindfactory.de/product_info.php/AMD-A6-7480-2x-3-8GHz-So-FM2--BOX_1289834.html

For whom goes AM4 that s a good start in the waiting of lower priced Ryzens..

https://www.mindfactory.de/product_info.php/AMD-A6-9400-3-7GHZ-65W-2C_1296399.html
I missed the part where it was coming to FM2+, that does indeed make it a bit more appealing.
 

amd6502

Senior member
Apr 21, 2017
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I missed the part where it was coming to FM2+, that does indeed make it a bit more appealing.
Not really, there's already abundant low end (dual core or old gen A8's) APUs that dual core APUs on fm2+ are close to pointless. Concentrating on expanding the price range on AM4 is much more important. However, they may only have a guess as to which die salvage is a likely to be dual vs quad core, and they cannot perfectly sort prior to creating the package.

It is a good thing for DDR3 DIY consumers, to have the option of throwing together a perfectly capable www browsing machine (though personally I'd spend a few extra $ for doubled up cores and more future proofing).


Would there be enough volume to justify the effort?
For new fm2+ boards with new fancy features? That's quite a niche in an already pretty low volume market. There is a demand for new fm2+ boards still, but since it's budget platform the consumers tend not to be picky. (For me personally, M.2 wouldn't add much worth.)

Surprisingly there seems to be a wave of a cheap no-name chinese A88 boards. (somebody must have gotten near free chipsets?) Designed in Shenzen and maybe meant for the domestic market, but now exported. I wouldn't quite totally trust these to last, and it looks like these may not be standard fm2/am3 cooler mount spacing.

 
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Aug 25, 2001
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That A88X board is curious. The A85X/A88X support 8 SATA6G ports, but that board only shows four. Also, no NVMe, I wonder if it supports UEFI? Is that a USB3.0 header I spy on the bottom? Does the A88X support USB3.0 natively? That could be a real bonus for cheap pre-builts. Most people expect some USB3.0 ports these days on a PC.

For the right price, assuming that they're reliable (and have a source of driver and BIOS updates?), I might consider them.
 

Abwx

Diamond Member
Apr 2, 2011
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For the right price, assuming that they're reliable (and have a source of driver and BIOS updates?), I might consider them.
A88X does not officialy support Carrizo based APUs, if you have some DDR3 left and want to use it best is to go the A68H route with Asrock, the MB below is less than 40€ in Europe, should be 40$ in the US.

https://www.asrock.com/mb/AMD/FM2A68M-DG3+/

FM2+ A6-7480(AD7480ACI23AB)65WCarrizo3.5GHz2MBA1P5.10
FM2+ A8-7680(AD7680ACI43AB)65WCarrizo3.5GHz2MBA1P5.10
 

NostaSeronx

Platinum Member
Sep 18, 2011
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Meanwhile... not sure if this is accurate.

12FDX has been moved from a staggered release;
Malta-2H19, Dresden-1H20, Chengdu-2H20
To a synchronized release;
M/D/C 2H19~1H20

///
Meanwhile, 22FDX is getting extra design win stuff;
https://www.rambus.com/rambus-and-g...22fdx-for-communications-and-5g-applications/
https://www.rambus.com/memory-and-interfaces/serdes/32g-phy/
^-- this is important if taken in context with an upgrade to PIPE 5; https://blogs.synopsys.com/vip-cent...5-0-dp-1-4-usb-3-2-sata-and-future-protocols/
32G would allow for PCIe 5.0.

https://www.globalfoundries.com/new...hin-integration-deliver-differentiated-fd-soi
^-- Another ABB turnkey ready in Q2 2019.

///
Now, the shortcut;
22FDX -> Stoney-esque successor
12FDX -> Bristol-esque successor

22FDX => 50-80% faster than 28nm // 28nm cost at 12~16nm FinFET performance/power.
12FDX => >80% faster than 28nm // 20nm cost at 5~7nm FinFET performance/power.

12FDX 84CPP is for the ULP/ULL std lib, comparable to the 22FDX 116CPP ULP/ULL std lib; We have yet to see dense/performance std lib for the 12FDX node.

Carrizo 2015 / Bristol 2016 & Stoney 2016 and still being used in new products. Well, 22FDX/12FDX products might support a longer lifespan.
// 1st Gen NC (2019/2020) on 22FDX and 2nd Gen NC (2020-2024) on 12FDX.
22FDX will mostly be condensed to Stoney-esque design; 2 'x86-64' cores + 3 'GCN' compute units.
12FDX will take the above IP and expand on it to; I/O dies, CPU dies, GPU dies, and extended APU family.
 
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Abwx

Diamond Member
Apr 2, 2011
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Carrizo 2015 / Bristol 2016 & Stoney 2016 and still being used in new products. Well, 22FDX/12FDX products might support a longer lifespan.
// 1st Gen NC (2019/2020) on 22FDX and 2nd Gen NC (2020-2024) on 12FDX.
22FDX will mostly be condensed to Stoney-esque design; 2 'x86-64' cores + 3 'GCN' compute units.
12FDX will take the above IP and expand on it to; I/O dies, CPU dies, GPU dies, and extended APU family.
What i quoted is what your added on your edit after noticing that there wasnt a single reference to Carrizo/Bristol Ridge in your first text, dunno why you re keeping using an APU related thread as some kind of FDSOI mouthpiece, not the first thread that was Seronxed and FDSOIded.....
 

amd6502

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Apr 21, 2017
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What i quoted is what your added on your edit after noticing that there wasnt a single reference to Carrizo/Bristol Ridge in your first text, dunno why you re keeping using an APU related thread as some kind of FDSOI mouthpiece, not the first thread that was Seronxed and FDSOIded.....
Well the topic of a SR/BR successor has been going on here for a while. And if it is to be dozer based FDSOI (particularly the low cost 22FDX) would be the natural choice. It's not out of the norm to post drafts and iterate it into a piece coherent to another reader.

Is that a USB3.0 header I spy on the bottom? Does the A88X support USB3.0 natively? That could be a real bonus for cheap pre-builts. Most people expect some USB3.0 ports these days on a PC.

For the right price, assuming that they're reliable (and have a source of driver and BIOS updates?), I might consider them.
All a68 boards I've ever come across have had some usb 3 ports. Is a88 much older? Even modern or more recent AM3+ boards have usb 3; it is added even though a chipset like the 760g didn't have usb3 support built in.

Right now those boards seem to have no bios updates, documentation, or support. They'll have to add that if they expect buyers outside of China.
 

amd6502

Senior member
Apr 21, 2017
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Carrizo 2015 / Bristol 2016 & Stoney 2016 and still being used in new products. Well, 22FDX/12FDX products might support a longer lifespan.
// 1st Gen NC (2019/2020) on 22FDX and 2nd Gen NC (2020-2024) on 12FDX.
22FDX will mostly be condensed to Stoney-esque design; 2 'x86-64' cores + 3 'GCN' compute units.
12FDX will take the above IP and expand on it to; I/O dies, CPU dies, GPU dies, and extended APU family.
I think (at least hope) SR was the last native dual thread APU. The amount of area added by a module is pretty small----under 31mm^2 on 32nm with 2MB L2 (probably ~21mm2 not counting L2). BR as it is can be run via software in a big.little like configuration by setting limits on the frequencies on one core per module and tasksetting nice low priority tasks to the low frequency cores. No hardware changes. The idle power is maybe slightly higher but it's not too significant. If the whole APU is run in reverse body bias idle power shouldn't be an issue anyway. If you expect it to be a longer lived product, it's going to need 4+ threads. So either add primitive coarse grain multithreading, or better just spend the extra 20-25mm^2 on a second module.
 
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NostaSeronx

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Sep 18, 2011
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28SHP SR => 114CPP/6x 90Mx/13-track
28A XV => 114CPP/8x 90Mx/9-track
20LPM XV => 86CPP/3x 64Mx/9-track
12FDX NC => 84CPP/3x 56Mx/7.5-track <-- 28nm Bobcat-esque. <== Speed to launch of product.
12FDX NC2 => __CPP/3x 56Mx/__-track <-- 28nm Jaguar-esque. <== Improvement of product.

Not sure what happened to 22FDX, but apparently engineering samples are in evaluation for 12FDX.

My opinion of the lineup;
Return of FX/Opteron on AM4. Opteron is a budget server part, continuation of Zurich/Delhi. The budget FX would be continuing from Zambezi/Vishera/Centurion.
A-series/Sempron on FP6. Potential continuation of Bristol, and definite continuation of Stoney.
A small GPU product as a dGPU. Continuation of Polaris 24. <-- Move from GDDR5 BGA to DDR5 BGA.

The only important and confirmed part is the Stoney continuation.

Also, they have dropped 12T in the SOI Consortium slides for 22FDX if you go to the previous post;

I breezed over that before when reading through it.

With the pivot and focus on 12nm FDSOI/12FDX, there will be a 7nm FDSOI/7FDX node. So, AMD relative to everyone else will be bleeding edge on FDX nodes.

Apparently, there is a Phase 3 of Chengdu.
Phase 1 was 180nm/130nm, it is now 22FDX.
Phase 2 was 22FDX, it is now 22FDX&12FDX.
Phase 3 is new, it will be 7FDX. <-- Its existence is related to Asia. It has a (political?) chair and dedicated team built to ensure it gets done.
// The CAS Lithography? rather than EUV, so its production is a long while away.

7nm is a post-2021 node and is not covered in 7th WSA. So, it might be under the WSA that is set up to be discussed for in late 2021.
 
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amd6502

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The whole cost advantages of 22FDX, low cost and low risk, are not really there for 12FDX so I don't think the prospect is so good.
 

jpiniero

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Oct 1, 2010
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I wonder if they would use 22FDX for the active interposer, once they get to that.
 

NostaSeronx

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Sep 18, 2011
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So it's going to be useful for (relatively niche) embedded stuff, not mass market consumer stuff? As expected.
AMD Embedded G-Series J Family SoCs are designed to meet the processing requirements of a wide range of embedded applications, including:
- Thin Client
- Digital Signage
- Digital Gaming
- Retail Point of Sale
- Industrial/Automation
- Military/Aerospace
- Media & Collaboration
- Smart Camera and more

//AMD recently refreshed its AMD Embedded G-Series J Family of processors, formerly codenamed “Prairie Falcon,” ... https://community.amd.com/community...sionGUID=a5516c33-847a-a83d-e1d9-890483779d7e
^-- Last modified on Jun 12, 2018 9:02 AM
^-- 2018 refresh
http://linuxgizmos.com/files/amd_3rdgengseries_j_chart.jpg
^-- 2016 numbers

The whole cost advantages of 22FDX, low cost and low risk, are not really there for 12FDX so I don't think the prospect is so good.
So, 22FDX is either done at AMD or since the pivot moved all tasks to 12FDX.

The extra cost of 12FDX is buffered by the shrink.
22FDX => 125 mm2 * <0.78 => <97.5 mm squared
12FDX => 125 mm2 * ~0.43 => ~53.75 mm squared
For a Stoney Replacement, the 12FDX node builds upon 20LPM/14XM/14LPP nodes.

-> First 12FDX SoC => Cost reduction, power reduction, complexity reduction, and sub-cm2 fast HVM.
XV Watt Range per module is 2W to 18W.
22nm-FD & 20nm-BLK => <1W - <9W for same performance.
12nm-FD => <0.5W - <4.5W for same performance.

The main reason the actual watts would be less than is because of Vt re-selection and track height reduction. 22FD is 8-track and has lower power Vts, 12FD is 7.5-track and has even lower power Vts. There might also be IP redesigns, and new units to add, but ~25W performance should be converged into ~6W power.

Edit: 18W is 3.5 GHz to 3.7 GHz
12FDX at 9W would have the whole 50%(22FDX) + 26%(12FDX) frequency boost at same power. There is also 12FDX superior body-biasing, allowing for dual-BB(FBB+RBB). At idle all the transistors can reverse body bias, at active all the transistors can forward body bias. Whereas, in 22FDX it is optimized for RVT/HVT for reverse, and LVT/SLVT for forward.

12FDX allows for a more simplified AVFBS; Adaptive voltage-frequency-bias scaling, than 22FDX. Body-biasing would allow for a superior embedded with reliability-focused body bias, and a superior consumer with performance-focused body bias.
;End edit

The two entry-products for 2020;
N7+ => 2x Zen3 + 3x GPU @ $60 price; sustained ASP and premium.
12FDX => 2x NCx + 3x GPU @ $10 price; reduced ASP and budget.

Going up;
N7+ => >4x Zen3 + <16x GPU
12FDX => ~4x NCx + <8x GPU
N7+ => >16 Zen3
12FDX => ~8x NCx
N7+ => 24 CUs
12FDX => ~6 CUs
I wonder if they would use 22FDX for the active interposer, once they get to that.
The FDX platform is aimed at 3DVLSI.
https://www.semanticscholar.org/pap...madi/8d52a706230a6056844b663a1d4cb1dfb97eb7fa
https://ai2-s2-public.s3.amazonaws....a6056844b663a1d4cb1dfb97eb7fa/2-Figure1-1.png
Bottom two dies would be 12FDX, four top dies would be 22FDX. If it was a GloblFoundries slide.

The only 2.5D currently available for the FDX platform is Organic and MCM. While only the FinFET platform has Interposers, TSVs, Si Photonics.
 
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amd6502

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Apr 21, 2017
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The extra cost of 12FDX is buffered by the shrink.
I don't just mean manufacturing cost, but more importantly the project cost. That's the portion of the cost that affect risk, and for lower volume products it could also contribute more to the cost than the manufacturing cost. Whether a project makes it or not is primarily affected by its risk.
 

NostaSeronx

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Sep 18, 2011
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I don't just mean manufacturing cost, but more importantly the project cost. That's the portion of the cost that affect risk, and for lower volume products it could also contribute more to the cost than the manufacturing cost. Whether a project makes it or not is primarily affected by its risk.
How it is aimed from GlobalFoundries is that it is an extension of 12LP 7.5T.

14LPP 9T -> 12LP 7.5T => 16% lower power at same power.
12LP 7.5T -> 12FDX 7.5T => 50% lower power w/o body bias to 17% faster w/o body bias. With body-bias to get 7nm performance and power, at lower cost than 14nm FinFETs.

Only 5% of design set of 14LPP/12LP needs to be re-learned to develop for 12FDX. Simpler process means lower development/projects costs. The re-use of FEOL pitch and BEOL pitches M4 and up probably help too. IP re-use wise, the 20LPM Excavator could be migrated quickly to 12FDX. Then, migrate the 14nm GCN, VCN, Infinity Fabric, etc from Raven/Raven2 to 12FDX quickly. However, there is the 7.5-track which would require some extra optimization. Not Excavator, but still Steamroller/XV-derived and with not Vega, but still Vega-derived(GFX9).

Lowest ASP to highest ASP on APU track.
Stoney-successor(12FDX) -> Raven2-successor(7nm) -> Renoir(7nm)

All of it being 7nm-performance/7-nm power most of the time.

If GlobalFoundries can speed up 12FDX; (From Dream Chips Technologies from their ADAS roadmap)

Any time after December 2019 is when we will see a 12FDX chip.

Example;
A6-9220C (28BLK) Jan/Feb 2019 -> A6-10220C (12FDX) Jan 2020, beyond
A4-9120C (28BLK) Jan/Feb 2019 -> A4-10120C (12FDX) Jan 2020, beyond

Extra:
Earliest to 12FDX is Malta and last to 12FDX is Chengdu.

MSRP wise Athlon with Zen is on-par with Kabini Athlon; $59 being the zone w/ Athlon 5350.
MSRP wise Stoney Ridge is below the Kabini Sempron which was $39 MSRP. Without BGA to FP4, those versions are selling <30 USD @ 1K. I don't know the official price.

No EPYC on AM4 leaves room for an Opteron on AM4.
No Sempron Zen leaves room for a 15h/15h-successor in its place.
 
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krumme

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amd6502

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Now even the Atari box is ditching Bristol Ridge: https://medium.com/@atarivcs/more-power-is-coming-to-the-atari-vcs-20c02f3aefc2 Looks like the Chromebook craptops are the last hurrah for the construction cores...
I would have thought they'd wait for the 2nd gen VCS for a drop in upgrade. Unless they get 5CU or better I think this will be a downgrade or sidegrade.

They well might have enough RR salvage with half the CU (5 or 6) still working at decent freq and voltage. If it is RR then I really hope they get a custom binning like that (wouldn't be a significant extra cost to AMD).

Another worry about VCS (not sure about this) is the RAM; I think they were waffling back and forth between 4 and 8gb. Now 4gb is going to be a total disaster, esp'ly for APU setup. They'd at the very least solder on 2GB and have a single 4GB in a slot.

Yes. What's been called Raven 2 recently.
If the cost of 14nm projects has fallen significantly, RR2/RR-L would be a sensible successor to BR and alternative to BR-L.

Oh well NTMBK, sad for the construction cores. At least they had a decent run 2011~12 through about 2018~19. Or 7+ years.
 
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NostaSeronx

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Sep 18, 2011
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In regards, to the Atari VCS:
It is in bad taste to make an upgrade to Zen. Especially, when AMD is only a year away from the Zen3/VCN2/Navi Athlon. I'm expecting another delay till the end of 2020!

Stoney Ridge Chrome;
- https://store.hp.com/us/en/pdp/hp-chromebook-14-db0020nr
- https://store.hp.com/us/en/pdp/hp-chromebook-14-db0030nr
- HP Chromebook 11A G6 6KJ20UT#ABA
- https://www.acer.com/ac/en/US/content/professional-model/NX.H8SAA.001
^-- 1366x768 and A4-9120C(equiv A6-9220e)

- HP Chromebook 14A G5
- https://www.acer.com/ac/en/US/content/professional-model/NX.H8SAA.002
^- 1920x1080(HP it is an option) and A6-9220C(equiv A9-9420e)

On to 12FDX, it is at the equivalent stage of 4Q 2016 ~ 1Q 2017 for 22FDX. The first product will be AMD64/x86, but the second product might be AArch64 w/ zero-emulation AMD64 support. Basically, Windows on ARM w/o need of emulation for Win32(x86)/Win64(x86-64). Both products will be derived from Excavator, first one is a fast port and the second is a new product.
 
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