Amanda Knox Double Jeopardy

[Fern]

From an NBC article.

This is the reasoning behind why the Italian courts do not look at this as double jeopardy.

Interesting, thanks.

My question is what is the next step in Italy?

If they're going back to 'square one' I think it may be found to be double jeopardy. I think it's important to note that here the lower court is the finder of fact. Here, once that has been done it can't be revisited without some exceptional finding (if at all). We, like Italy, have three levels, but if I understand correctly, the appeals and SCOTUS do not find fact, but rule on question of law.

If the next step in Italy goes back to square one where the facts are retried I suspect that would be seen as double jeopardy here. I don't care what Italy thinks, that would be a whole 'nother bite at the apple.

Fern

 

[juiio]

Any links to this stuff? There was no murder weapon found, so I don't know where you are getting your info.

It is all in the Massei Report, which is the report produced by Giancarlo Massei, who presided over stage one.

Discussion of the knife begins on page 264.

 

[juiio]

Interesting, thanks.

My question is what is the next step in Italy?

A re-do of stage two. It probably won't begin until next year, I'd guess.

 

[monovillage]

Did she waive her right to a speedy trial? Would it matter?

 

[Tango]

Did she waive her right to a speedy trial? Would it matter?

Knox and Sollecito did not ask for it.

 

[juiio]

Did she waive her right to a speedy trial? Would it matter?

That question is backwards. They are offered a fast track trial, which if accepted, is giving up some of their rights. If they accept the fast track trial, their sentence is reduced by 1/3 in the event of a conviction. Rudy chose the fast track trial, hence his sentence being less than what Amanda and Sollecito were given.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Code_of_Criminal_Procedure#Fast-track_trial

 

[StinkyPinky]

Her rights as an American citizen do not extend to foreign countries

Some of the comments here remind me of those old movies where people scream out "But I'm American!!" when arrested overseas.

By the way, read up about this girl. She's far from an angel. She's highly suspect imo.

 

[RaistlinZ]

Who has final say in this, Dept. of State or the President?

At any rate I doubt they would extradite her. The public outrage would be immense.

 

[Paratus]

I was practicing hyperbole to make a political point.

Pretty much sums up your posting style doesn't it

http://mobile.slate.com/blogs/crime/2013/03/26/meredith_kercher_murder_case_amanda_knox_will_never_be_extradited_to_italy.html

I predict that, even if she is convicted in absentia, there’s no way that Knox will be extradited back to Italy to serve her sentence. Knox is a cause célèbre in the U.S., and her partisans will exert significant pressure on the government to deny any extradition request. Article X of the current U.S.-Italy extradition treaty states that the requesting nation must present a case summary that provides “a reasonable basis to believe that the person sought committed the offense for which extradition is requested.” The United States will probably use this as grounds for blocking Knox’s extradition. They might cite double jeopardy, too, but that’s a trickier argument to win under the current treaty.

I too don't think the US will extradite.

 

[Doppel]

Her rights as an American citizen do not extend to foreign countries

Some of the comments here remind me of those old movies where people scream out "But I'm American!!" when arrested overseas.

Great point.

Except she isn't overseas anymore. That is the entire point people are making any not a single damn person has said that US law overrules another country's laws for a person arrested and on trial in that other country.

Italy lost the game when they allowed her to leave.

Knox will never spend another day in an Italian prison.

She is now under US jurisdiction and the US will never extradite her unless some damning new piece of evidence comes out.

 

[Carfax83]

By the way, read up about this girl. She's far from an angel. She's highly suspect imo.

I think you're the one that needs to read up. :hmm:

What has she done that's suspect? Smoke large amounts of marijuana and sleep around?

The only incriminating thing she's done, is falsely accuse another man of being the killer, and admitted to being in the vicinity when the murder took place and both of those were deemed inadmissible by the Court because they were said under extreme duress and ILLEGAL circumstances with no lawyer or translator available, and no verbal confirmation or recording from the suspect.

 

[RampantAndroid]

I think you're the one that needs to read up. :hmm:

What has she done that's suspect? Smoke large amounts of marijuana and sleep around?

The only incriminating thing she's done, is falsely accuse another man of being the killer, and admitted to being in the vicinity when the murder took place and both of those were deemed inadmissible by the Court because they were said under extreme duress and ILLEGAL circumstances with no lawyer or translator available, and no verbal confirmation or recording from the suspect.

Yeah - her demeanor in court is the only suspect thing I see. Beyond that, I see a corrupt legal system. She'll probably be convicted and then not extradited.

 

[Tango]

[...] because they were said under extreme duress and ILLEGAL circumstances with no lawyer or translator available, and no verbal confirmation or recording from the suspect.

Initially she did not have a lawyer because she was being heard as a witness, not a suspect. Nobody lawyers-up when heard as a witness because that alone would (obviously) make you immediately a suspect. Later she was actually offered a lawyer and just claimed she did not have one. No proof of duress was ever given. In fact the opposite is true, with multiple witnesses disqualifying her claims on this.

Notice also that Sollecito (who does not need a translator and never claimed to have been under duress) too contradicted himself and her, changing multiple times his version on their whereabouts the night of the murder.

Finally: inventing an elaborate story to frame an innocent man, something for which Knox has already been proven guilty.

If she is smart enough to never ever leave the US soil in her life she won't serve any more time. But it's pretty obvious they did it.

 

[Carfax83]

Initially she did not have a lawyer because she was being heard as a witness, not a suspect. Nobody lawyers-up when heard as a witness because that alone would (obviously) make you immediately a suspect. Later she was actually offered a lawyer and just claimed she did not have one. No proof of duress was ever given. In fact the opposite is true, with multiple witnesses disqualifying her claims on this.

That's not really true. She was a witness in the beginning, but the police eventually started casing her as a possible suspect and the interrogation became much more aggressive.

What "witness" would be treated to such a lengthy interrogation as she was, where she was lied to several times by the police to make her believe they had evidence against her?

Notice also that Sollecito (who does not need a translator and never claimed to have been under duress) too contradicted himself and her, changing multiple times his version on their whereabouts the night of the murder.

Hmm, are you sure about this?

Sollecito claims he was physically abused police interrogators

Quote from article:

Sollecito told Van Sant about his interrogation and the pressure he received from both the police and his family, to turn on Amanda Knox

Sollecito was stripped and abused by police

Amanda Knox’s boyfriend was stripped naked and physically abused by police before being placed in solitary confinement after the pair was accused of the murder of Meredith Kercher, he claims in a book published on Tuesday.

Finally: inventing an elaborate story to frame an innocent man, something for which Knox has already been proven guilty.

She didn't invent it. It was suggested to her by the corrupt police interrogators..

If she is smart enough to never ever leave the US soil in her life she won't serve any more time. But it's pretty obvious they did it

If she is convicted "again," it will basically further solidify Italy's reputation for having a corrupt, incompetent justice system..

 

[Zorba]

Initially she did not have a lawyer because she was being heard as a witness, not a suspect. Nobody lawyers-up when heard as a witness because that alone would (obviously) make you immediately a suspect.

And this is why you never talk to the police. "Am I under arrest? Am I free to leave? See ya."

As to the "She'll be a prisoner in the United States" The US is a pretty big place, I would much rather be completely free to roam in the entirety of the US than be in an real prison anywhere.

 

[juiio]

That's not really true. She was a witness in the beginning, but the police eventually started casing her as a possible suspect and the interrogation became much more aggressive.

What "witness" would be treated to such a lengthy interrogation as she was, where she was lied to several times by the police to make her believe they had evidence against her?

Everything she said prior to 1:45 AM (including the original admission) was not admissible as evidence, because she was still a witness at that time.

At 1:45 AM, she was informed that she was no longer being treated as a witness, but instead was being treated as a suspect. She was then informed that she would not be asked any more questions until she got a lawyer, but that she could choose to make a spontaneous statement if she wished. She declined, and she was taken to a cell, where she was given dinner. At 5:45 AM, she chose to make a spontaneous statement, and she repeated her same confession. This was the confession that was used as evidence. It was not the result of interrogation, as she was not being interrogated at the time. She chose to give it out of her own free will.

 

[juiio]

Their original alibi:

Knox and Sollecito claim to have been at Sollecito's house all night. Sollecito's computer was on all night, but there was no human interaction after 6:27 PM, when they started a movie. A witness said she saw Knox leave Sollecito's home at 8:40 PM.

A second witness says that he saw Knox and Sollecito in the public square above Knox's cottage after 9:30 PM. He saw them again at 11:00 PM, and testified that they would walk to the edge of the square and look down on the cottage.

Knox and Sollecito claim they slept until 10:00 or 10:30 AM, but Sollecito's phone was turned on (it had been off all evening) at 6:02 AM. The defense claimed that his cat turned it on. A third witness, the owner of a store near Sollecito's home, testified that he saw Knox at 7:45 AM.

Four days later, Sollecito, when confronted on the holes in his story, changed his story to say that Amanda asked him to lie. His story was now that he was home all night, but that Amanda had left to go to a club with friends. He said that she was possibly wearing different clothes when she returned to his house at 1:00 AM.

When confronted with the news that Sollecito changed his story, Knox changed her story, and gave the aforementioned confession. In the morning, she changed her story to the false accusation of Patrick Lumumba.

 

[Carfax83]

Julio, if you're going to post information, we need a source.

At any rate, the admission stuff you posted contradicts what Knox and Sollecito both said; which is that the admissions were made under duress and were coerced.

Also, even if they were true, these are mere technicalities. Where is the meat of the evidence against Knox and Sollecito?

I want to know, what is the MOTIVE for them to murder Kercher?

If the Italian Prosecutor is to believed, it was Satanic rituals, drug fueled sex orgies and other bombastic foolishness.

 

[juiio]

Suspicious stuff from the day the body was found:

At 12:07 PM, Amanda calls Meredith's phone. At 12:08 PM, Amanda calls Filomena and tells her about the blood. She does not tell Filomena about that locked door, or the supposed burglary. Filomena asks her to call Meredith. Amanda does not tell her about the call that she made one minute earlier.

At 12:11, Amanda makes a call to Meredith's Italian phone and a call to her english phone. The calls last three seconds and four seconds, respectively. Long enough to for the phone company to note that a call was made, but way too short to go to voice mail or wait for Meredith to answer. Amanda later said in an email that she called Meredith's Italian phone but that it just rang and rang. Given that the call was only three seconds, this was not true.

Postal police arrive at 12:30 PM. At 12:51 PM and 12:54 PM, Sollecito makes calls to 112 (the Italian version of 9-1-1). That's right. 20 minutes after the police were already there, he called the Italian version of 911 to report that someone had broken into the house and that there was blood.

Amanda would later tell people that Meredith died by the closet. She did die by the closet, right, so no big deal? The problem is that while Meredith died by the closet, the body was moved away from the closet. Amanda knew that Meredith died by the closet before the police even knew.

Amanda also knew that Meredith's throat was cut. She claims to have heard it from "someone" who was at the cottage when Meredith's door was kicked open, but none of the people who were present when the door was kicked open knew that. All they saw of Meredith was a foot. Amanda never gave a name for who told her about the throat, because that person would have been able to refute her claim.

 

[juiio]

Julio, if you're going to post information, we need a source.

It is all in the Massei report, which is the report put out by the presiding judge for stage one. The report summarizes the entire case and the reasoning for the verdict in stage one.

 

[juiio]

The staged break-in:

Filomena's window is at the top of the picture, 13 feet off the ground. Filomena testified that the shutters were swollen and required a lot of force to open. She also testified that she closed the shutters.

To break in through Filomena's window, a burglar would have to scale a 13-foot wall, hope the shutters weren't latched, somehow maintain a hold while he forced the shutters open, continue the acrobatics while he broke the window, opened the window, and climbed into the room. All of this without leaving any trace of himself on the building, window, shutters, or in Filomena's room.

Oh yes, there was also a staged rape. If there really was a burglar, why would he stage a rape? That makes absolutely no sense.

 

[juiio]

Problems with the timeline and story, if Rudy was acting alone:

Yet another witness testified that Rudy was running away from the scene shortly after the scream. However, we know that the bathroom was thoroughly cleaned, footprints were cleaned, and that the body was moved. Rudy didn't have time to do that prior to running away from the scene.

It would have taken him roughly 15 minutes to get to the spot where Meredith's phones were dumped, plus another 15 if he theoretically were to come back to the scene. Would he really risk coming back to the scene? The benefits of cleaning far outweigh the risk of getting caught. Also, don't forgot that we have a witness who saw Sollecito and Knox coming in and out of the the square above the cottage at the time that Rudy would have to have been doing the cleanup. Rudy was seen by witness in a club a short while later, so the window for him to be doing the cleaning is right when Sollecito and Knox were there.

Another problem with the Rudy-acting-alone theory: after hearing the scream, the same witness who saw Rudy running also heard other people in a different direction.

Yet another problem with the Rudy-acting-alone story: Meredith's wounds were consistent with multiple attackers. She had 47 cuts and bruises. She was punched from both the right and left side. She had bruises on her arm consistent with her arms being held behind her back (which is why there were no knife defense wounds). Medical examiners testified that more than two hands were involved in the attack.

 

[juiio]

The footprints:

I mentioned these earlier, but a little more detail:

A bloody footprint was found on the bathmat. Size-wise, it was a dead-on match to Sollecito's foot.

A second bloody footprint was found on a pillow that was found near Meredith's body. The footprint was a woman's size 37 or 38 (roughly a size 7 in the US). That is the size shoe that Amanda wears.

 

[juiio]

The knife:

A knife was found at Sollecito's. Amanda's DNA was found on the handle. That could be reasonable, of course, however Meredith's DNA was found on the business end of the knife. The defense argued that the sample was too small to properly determine if it was Meredith's.

 

[juiio]

The bra clasp:

It was, of course, collected long after the original crime scene investigation. However, it had Sollecito's DNA on it. This was not a contamination issue, because there was no source of Sollecito's DNA present, so there was nothing else that could have been the source of the DNA.