Am I the only one who despises talent trees?

[shortylickens]

I'm a huge fan of customization, but really dont like going about it using the popular implementations of skill trees. Theres generally too many constraints and limitations injecting skills into a level gated game that way (IMO).

A well done skill based character development system where gains come through usage beats any skill point distribution across a tree system no matter how the points come (exp, quest reward, story line) but its more difficult for the player to manage and the dev shop to "balance" so I'm not surprised the majority of games go with the skill tree option.

Thats kind of why AD&D was better than 3rd edition. Your class is set and you dont pick much in the way of powers and skills after class selection.

 

[thespyder]

I have to say that "If they are done right" and to a purpose, I like them. By "Right" I mean that they actually lead to different architypes to play. KoA:R did this part right in that the skill tree required concentration towards a given type of class in order to reach the higher reaches of the tree. Where it could have done better is that gameplay wasn't that diverse regardless.

Where I mean "To a purpose" I mean that it adds value to the game play experience. If it is just thrown in for "Lite" variations that end up having no real impact, it is a waste.

I think the "Original intent" was so that they could say "RPG-light" content on the box for other types of games. And the original intent in that was to differentiate shooters and platformers so that there was re-playability.

I do not agree that all games are no "RPGized". If anything, actual RPGs have more genericized than anything else. And the whole thing is less RPG fun. But that may be a separate issue.

 

[Arsinek]

I prefer games that have customization. Hand holding linear PVE games are a snooze-fest.

 

[HardcoreRobot]

Path of Exile does it well.

In general my opinion is that skills and abilities should not be limited by class or tree, but only by practice (if I use a wand all the time, I should kick ass with a wand, same for spell X, or swinging a sword etc.). Even for passives, auras and other buffs. Have slots for these things and the more they are used, the stronger they get. Fixed trees are just a path to regret.

 

[BoberFett]

I love skill trees. It makes balance and testing harder, but the more diverse the better. I like the way Amalur did it, where there is no class, and you're defined entirely by your skills and equipment.

 

[zinfamous]

It becomes pointless though. If you can change spec easily and freely then spec is no longer meaningful as you can simply optimize your spec for every task at hand.

While not a great game overall, Shadowbane had the most amazing character building and "talent" system. I feel like newer games could learn a lot from the system used by Shadowbane. You could build multiple characters of the same class completely different, and because it wasn't a simple 1g respec you didn't just have everyone shift over to the popular build of the week instantly (although people would roll new characters to copy a highly popular build). The game did have a respec function, but it was something where respecing 1 skill or atribute point was cheap but the cost doubled each time, and the cost reset after 1 real life day. This is a game with 300+ skill points, so fully respeccing a character for any reasonable cost would take months, but you did have the option to tweak a few points occasionally without spending too much.

depends on the game. For a huge MMO that requires a massive amount of time put into a character, the inability to respec means yet another massive time sync to create essentially the same class with a different talent tree. That is ridiculous, imo.

I don't mind them being locked down in single player, though I'd still prefer ability to respec all the time.

So, my argument is that I don't mind talent trees, so long as the option to respec is there. You might really like your character and long as there is enough content to explore and keep exploring late in the game, you should be able to respec and play a different build and style of play rather than sink another 1000 hours into creating a task-oriented, but otherwise identical class.

For an MMO--inability to respec in a game with multiple classes (especially classes that can do well at either DPS or Tank, for example, depending on your spec) is a non-starter. Random teams will often require a quick change to fill in missing roles.

 

[thespyder]

I love skill trees. It makes balance and testing harder, but the more diverse the better. I like the way Amalur did it, where there is no class, and you're defined entirely by your skills and equipment.

I liked the way Amalur did things. Could have been better, but yeah.

The one thing I think is absolutely necessary for skill trees is that they make a difference in the game play. Far to many games think that 'Balance' = 'Same'. it doesn't, and it shouldn't.

Take a game like GalCiv2. Ok, not an RPG, but still with Tech Trees. And different and diverse tech trees for each race. Playing each race gives you different options. And even within the tech trees, there are vast different paths to take so that you never end up with the same ending tech (unless you try to do so).

 

[nyker96]

ok my personal take on RPG is this, in the past talent tree seems to be the way every rpg is made using. But ... I think the future will be something like exp based talent distributions. Meaning, all talents will be open to a player, of course some will need a few prereq, however, the strength for each talent don't come from leveling but how much they are used. If they are used a lot they become strong over time. This may also eliminate the need to level or even choose a class to specialize in since the generic you can be any class depending on what talents you choose to use.

I see this happening little bit w/ borderlands which the more you use a type of gun, the better bonus you get w/ that gun. etc. I think this is the future of rpg.

 

[Chiropteran]

depends on the game. For a huge MMO that requires a massive amount of time put into a character

Well, that in itself is a problem too IMO I like shadowbanes system in the context of shadowbane, where leveling to "high enough to be useful" only took a single evening, and while it might take a few more to completely max out the game had a diminishing returns type leveling system where the difference between a level 20 and a 25 was pretty significant, but the difference between level 70 and 75 was only a couple skill points, and as long as you were 50+ you could mostly compete based on skill despite being lower than max level.



WoW's broken system where it takes months and months of game time to max out a character is a disease. An easy respec system simply deals with one symptom of that disease, it doesn't cure it. The real cure is a shorter time investment to reach playable levels in a game.


The problem with cheap respecs or multiple specs as a cure for a long and tedious leveling process is that you have zero differentiation.

 

[reallyscrued]

I despise the RPG-ization of games in general. Why should first person shooters need to have an "open world", where you have to "accept" quests from NPCs, run back and forth to "turn in" and level up?

Maybe I'm over-generalizing, but RAGE really disappointed me this way. ID somehow felt obligated to make their game into a semi-RPG...

Seriously. If RAGE was a traditional, linear, monster-romp like Doom 3, I would've been perfectly content. Oh well. At least we have other games to fill the gap.

[/bitter]

This is hilarious.

When Doom3 came out, people complained it was too linear.

Now when Rage is released, people wonder why it's so RPG-like.

The ironing is delicious.

 

[Iron Wolf]

As far as I am concerned, no one has done skill trees right. There should be relatively few points given, with an abundance of meaningful choices, to allow players to truly play their characters the way they want to and also to avoid cookie-cutter sameness.

I think Heroes 6 has come the closest to a good system, but even they fell into the trap of making some skills worthless, and some OP.

 

[darkewaffle]

Well, that in itself is a problem too IMO I like shadowbanes system in the context of shadowbane, where leveling to "high enough to be useful" only took a single evening, and while it might take a few more to completely max out the game had a diminishing returns type leveling system where the difference between a level 20 and a 25 was pretty significant, but the difference between level 70 and 75 was only a couple skill points, and as long as you were 50+ you could mostly compete based on skill despite being lower than max level.



WoW's broken system where it takes months and months of game time to max out a character is a disease. An easy respec system simply deals with one symptom of that disease, it doesn't cure it. The real cure is a shorter time investment to reach playable levels in a game.


The problem with cheap respecs or multiple specs as a cure for a long and tedious leveling process is that you have zero differentiation.

Except SWTOR did that essentially (at least for one tier so far) and then everyone complains about not having anything to do

 

[zinfamous]

ok my personal take on RPG is this, in the past talent tree seems to be the way every rpg is made using. But ... I think the future will be something like exp based talent distributions. Meaning, all talents will be open to a player, of course some will need a few prereq, however, the strength for each talent don't come from leveling but how much they are used. If they are used a lot they become strong over time. This may also eliminate the need to level or even choose a class to specialize in since the generic you can be any class depending on what talents you choose to use.

I see this happening little bit w/ borderlands which the more you use a type of gun, the better bonus you get w/ that gun. etc. I think this is the future of rpg.

Guild Wars 2 does something like that with their skill system. As skills are tied to weapon sets, you have a consistent set of available skills that you will always have, but they level individually dependent on use.

There are plenty of skills, I believe, that you still must purchase (using the karma point system) or acquire through questing, like elite skills--but then maybe all skills are acquired this way. I'm not completely sure. But I do think you will have 5 primary skills for each weapon set upon first use, and then all skills will ahve their own leveling system.

Suffice it to say, I can't wait to give it a whirl, as GW 2 appears to be a breath of fresh air in nearly every aspect of genre.

 

[thespyder]

ok my personal take on RPG is this, in the past talent tree seems to be the way every rpg is made using. But ... I think the future will be something like exp based talent distributions. Meaning, all talents will be open to a player, of course some will need a few prereq, however, the strength for each talent don't come from leveling but how much they are used. If they are used a lot they become strong over time. This may also eliminate the need to level or even choose a class to specialize in since the generic you can be any class depending on what talents you choose to use.

I see this happening little bit w/ borderlands which the more you use a type of gun, the better bonus you get w/ that gun. etc. I think this is the future of rpg.

Oblivion did this. And Skyrim to a certain degree. Problem was that they tried to keep the world balanced against the Player and it horribly failed in Oblivion. And was easy to 'Play', provided you knew what you were doing.

Personally, I would not like to see the whole "Everyone can get to any feat or talent". This cheapens magic casters (IMHO), in that any thug can learn powerful spells. And genericizes RPG type games. Again, the only good valid reasons for any type of "Skill tree" (and even this type is a 'Type' of skill tree), it needs to differentiate the game play. if it doesn't you might as well limit it to what color the clothing is. What is on the inside doesn't change.

 

[abaez]

As far as I am concerned, no one has done skill trees right. There should be relatively few points given, with an abundance of meaningful choices, to allow players to truly play their characters the way they want to and also to avoid cookie-cutter sameness.

I think Heroes 6 has come the closest to a good system, but even they fell into the trap of making some skills worthless, and some OP.

You would like the Path of Exile talent tree. It's outrageous but fun.

OP would absolutely hate it.

 

[imaheadcase]

They need a game you can steal skills from other players you kill. Like have a pool 5000+ different unique skills random or whatever in a MMO.
You gain Lifedrain!
You gain Mana regen!
You gain free prostitute's at inn! Hey its a skill for some.

 

[thespyder]

They need a game you can steal skills from other players you kill. Like have a pool 5000+ different unique skills random or whatever in a MMO.
You gain Lifedrain!
You gain Mana regen!
You gain free prostitute's at inn! Hey its a skill for some.

This might work as a concept, but you would absolutely have to get the right type of genre. Something where it makes sense that your abilities change with each attack. maybe like some kind of psychic vampire? Or .... dono. but it is an interesting concept.

 

[M0oG0oGaiPan]

I like them when you can respec them. I don't like them as much when you pretty much have to use a specific build otherwise your character is nerfed. It just feels like there's no point in that case. Might as well not have a tree system.

 

[thespyder]

I like them when you can respec them. I don't like them as much when you pretty much have to use a specific build otherwise your character is nerfed. It just feels like there's no point in that case. Might as well not have a tree system.

Honestly, I have never used the re-specing abilities of any game that had it. In KoA:R, you could do that regularly. and in fact it was highly recommended that you do it when crafting. Which is where I think it falls down. If you can completely ignore a skill set/branch until you have a need for it. And then can dip into it deeply and then switch back, I think that cheapens the uniqueness of it all. IMHO.

 

[BoberFett]

As far as I am concerned, no one has done skill trees right. There should be relatively few points given, with an abundance of meaningful choices, to allow players to truly play their characters the way they want to and also to avoid cookie-cutter sameness.

I think Heroes 6 has come the closest to a good system, but even they fell into the trap of making some skills worthless, and some OP.

KOTOR? A very shallow skill system that wasn't even a tree.

 

[DaveSimmons]

It becomes pointless though. If you can change spec easily and freely then spec is no longer meaningful as you can simply optimize your spec for every task at hand.

While not a great game overall, Shadowbane had the most amazing character building and "talent" system. I feel like newer games could learn a lot from the system used by Shadowbane. You could build multiple characters of the same class completely different, and because it wasn't a simple 1g respec you didn't just have everyone shift over to the popular build of the week instantly (although people would roll new characters to copy a highly popular build). The game did have a respec function, but it was something where respecing 1 skill or atribute point was cheap but the cost doubled each time, and the cost reset after 1 real life day. This is a game with 300+ skill points, so fully respeccing a character for any reasonable cost would take months, but you did have the option to tweak a few points occasionally without spending too much.

If respecs are painful or impossible, then either:
a) You're forced to read a bunch of spoilers ahead of time so you don't use your points incorrectly
-or-
b) It may be easy to end up with a build that won't let you finish the game (or compete if it's PVP)

If respecs are cheap you can try new approaches without starting back at level 1 with a new character.

In Borderlands the skill trees do change how you play the game, and it's nice to be able to try things to see if you like them, then change your points again to try a new approach.

 

[thespyder]

If respecs are painful or impossible, then either:
a) You're forced to read a bunch of spoilers ahead of time so you don't use your points incorrectly
-or-
b) It may be easy to end up with a build that won't let you finish the game (or compete if it's PVP)

If respecs are cheap you can try new approaches without starting back at level 1 with a new character.

In Borderlands the skill trees do change how you play the game, and it's nice to be able to try things to see if you like them, then change your points again to try a new approach.

both scenarios involve not very well thought out skill trees. And you will always have gamers who want to read spoilers to make the "Ultimate" build.

Way back in Baldur's gate, the D&D answer to that was to create 'Classes' (ok even before CRPG, but that is a time period most of us can identify with). While not perfect, you could have a party of diverse classes and thus you weren't borked even if you Avatar was (or if you were borked it was because you didn't play properly or didn't maximize your companions).

I am not saying I would want to go back to that style (necessarily). Just saying that a skill system can be built and balanced such that it provides variety and yet doesn't require foreknowledge of the end game in order to be played.

 

[irishScott]

I wish more had the ability to take back points. Even in well-done versions like Diablo II, I'd sometimes invest in a skill I'd never used before and immediately regret doing so after the skill failed to impress.

 

[Dankk]

This is hilarious.

When Doom3 came out, people complained it was too linear.

Now when Rage is released, people wonder why it's so RPG-like.

The ironing is delicious.

Or you could stop grouping "people" into one giant, collective hivemind.

I quite enjoyed Doom 3 when it came out. Different strokes for different folks.