Am I the only one who despises talent trees?

[GWestphal]

It seems like every game has taken on the talent tree system. The first few times it was used ok, but now every damn game from RPG to FPS have it. WTH!

 

[Matthiasa]

I prefer it in some situations. It gets boring everyone always being the same.
However due to balance reasons everyone ends up the same in the end rendering it a huge waist of players time.
If balance is done right though the variety is nice.

 

[AznAnarchy99]

I'd say 95% people have to use cookie cutter specs anyways.

 

[shortylickens]

Original ideas seem to be bled from computer gaming lately.

 

[Craig234]

The type I don't like are the ones that you can't reasonbly do 'right' and have to get assistance - from Diablo II specs to World of Warcraft specs (they're fixing that).

The basic idea is fun.

Makes plenty of sense and is basic customization.

It's not easy finding varieties for the designers.

 

[Dankk]

I despise the RPG-ization of games in general. Why should first person shooters need to have an "open world", where you have to "accept" quests from NPCs, run back and forth to "turn in" and level up?

Maybe I'm over-generalizing, but RAGE really disappointed me this way. ID somehow felt obligated to make their game into a semi-RPG, where before doing anything, you have to accept the quest first, and then drive around back and forth to get anything done. Don't get me wrong... the gunplay by itself is fantastic. But it's the other stuff on top that I don't like. (Including the driving and racing, bitch please.) If they would've just expanded on the shooty bits and nothing else, it could've been a great game, and they could've even kept the beautiful canyon environment (look at Serious Sam).

But no, they had to pull a Borderlands and make a shooter with a big, soulless, open world, and nothing in it. Because the the cool thing to do now is to make games "open world" with "quests".

Seriously. If RAGE was a traditional, linear, monster-romp like Doom 3, I would've been perfectly content. Oh well. At least we have other games to fill the gap.

[/bitter]

 

[shortylickens]

Titan Quest is better cuz you can get your points back and redistribute them.

 

[coloumb]

It seems like every game has taken on the talent tree system. The first few times it was used ok, but now every damn game from RPG to FPS have it. WTH!

Which games are you referring too?

 

[Via]

I don't like talent trees either. I can't exactly put my finger on why, but I don't.

When I heard Gothic 4 was going to have talent trees I knew the series (as I knew it and loved it) was over for me.

I guess gamers expect them now?

 

[darkswordsman17]

I despise the RPG-ization of games in general. Why should first person shooters need to have an "open world", where you have to "accept" quests from NPCs, run back and forth to "turn in" and level up?

Maybe I'm over-generalizing, but RAGE really disappointed me this way. ID somehow felt obligated to make their game into a semi-RPG, where before doing anything, you have to accept the quest first, and then drive around back and forth to get anything done. Don't get me wrong... the gunplay by itself is fantastic. But it's the other stuff on top that I don't like. (Including the driving and racing, bitch please.) If they would've just expanded on the shooty bits and nothing else, it could've been a great game, and they could've even kept the beautiful canyon environment (look at Serious Sam).

But no, they had to pull a Borderlands and make a shooter with a big, soulless, open world, and nothing in it. Because the the cool thing to do now is to make games "open world" with "quests".

Seriously. If RAGE was a traditional, linear, monster-romp like Doom 3, I would've been perfectly content. Oh well. At least we have other games to fill the gap.

[/bitter]

I actually liked it at first, but the problem is they're using it to cover up for otherwise mediocre gameplay (and by cover up, I mean its highlighting it if anything). Even RPG stylings needs something to actually make you interested in it, and its like they're just ignoring that. Its possible to make a game have RPG elements but still be very action oriented or have gameplay that isn't just dependent on stats.

Rage took possibly the most annoying aspect of RPGs (fetch quests) and left a lot of the other aspects (namely rewards like leveling, etc) behind.

I think Rage could have been stellar if they'd have implemented a gun-crafting system where instead of leveling stats you're gathering material, parts, etc, to make new weapons. This way you get rewarded for the fetch quests, some customization, plus its not full on RPG stats and would still play like a good old action FPS.

I think that's why Borderlands worked, as the RPG elements in it were pretty tame, but they did loot pretty well, at least well enough that it carried the game for me when I wasn't too interested in the story. I really like Borderlands although it was far from perfect, but I think they made sure to get some of the better aspects of RPG style without going overboard, it still felt like an action game with some skill involved (although you could trump it with stats, you could also do the opposite and get in places you had no business being in which upped the challenge).

 

[Borealis7]

i like them, it lets you plan ahead and make the most out of your character.
i'm playing Deus Ex: HR right now and they did it a bit differently, there are many small "branches" rather than few long ones.

 

[epidemis]

The type I don't like are the ones that you can't reasonbly do 'right' and have to get assistance - from Diablo II specs to World of Warcraft specs (they're fixing that).

Assistance? God forbid you are forced to think and experiment. Fail.

 

[Whirlwind]

I despise the RPG-ization of games in general. Why should first person shooters need to have an "open world", where you have to "accept" quests from NPCs, run back and forth to "turn in" and level up?

Maybe I'm over-generalizing, but RAGE really disappointed me this way. ID somehow felt obligated to make their game into a semi-RPG, where before doing anything, you have to accept the quest first, and then drive around back and forth to get anything done. Don't get me wrong... the gunplay by itself is fantastic. But it's the other stuff on top that I don't like. (Including the driving and racing, bitch please.) If they would've just expanded on the shooty bits and nothing else, it could've been a great game, and they could've even kept the beautiful canyon environment (look at Serious Sam).

But no, they had to pull a Borderlands and make a shooter with a big, soulless, open world, and nothing in it. Because the the cool thing to do now is to make games "open world" with "quests".

Seriously. If RAGE was a traditional, linear, monster-romp like Doom 3, I would've been perfectly content. Oh well. At least we have other games to fill the gap.

[/bitter]

I understand what you are saying. There are not as many old skool shooters coming out because of this new hybrid style RPG/Shooter.

Serious Sam 3 is a perfect example of shooting mechanics.....the mouse is so smooth in this game that it is totally sick....Thanks Croteam.

I actually do like the new style hybrid, Fallout 3...Borderlands....Rage.....Loved everyone of them.

I just hope that developers will still realease a great corridor shooter once in awhile also.......I absolutely love and still play Doom 3.

It seemed alot of people were screaming to get away from corridor shooters....I personally love both.

Come on shooter fans......love all style of shooters and maybe they will make more

 

[brandonb]

I don't like talent trees either... Especially in MMO's. Games like Rift which have souls (multiple talent trees) you get all these raid guilding telling you how to spec your character for max DPS, optimal min/maxing, and when it comes down to it, everybody has the same character in the end.

And regards to open world. You have to realize that in the past the corridor shooters were a product of limited computing power. In order to get decent FPS, they had to make the game corridor (binary trees!) and we no longer have that issue. Which is why games are now more open.

 

[zokudu]

I don't get it. You get a few rail shooters like CoD and everyone screams bloody murder. You not don't like open world games without RPG elements and you don't like RPG elements. They just can't please you guys can they?

 

[darkewaffle]

It gives people an easy way to feel rewarded while levelling (new talent point to spend) as well as still letting them feel like they're actually building a character rather than just 'obtaining' it. Personally I love wide open or in depth character building (a la NWN) but that much freedom/variability does also create a ton of balancing issues.

 

[PrincessFrosty]

I despise the RPG-ization of games in general. Why should first person shooters need to have an "open world", where you have to "accept" quests from NPCs, run back and forth to "turn in" and level up?

It's because it has a strong accomplishment feeling for players, instead of just stumbling upon new weapons and gadgets, you can expect players to do an arbitrary amount of grinding, that pads out the game and suddenly you don't need to worry about having a story or even making the game fun, it can be completely repetitive and as long as the loot is shiny enough a lot of players will go for it.

 

[pontifex]

I don't like talent trees either... Especially in MMO's. Games like Rift which have souls (multiple talent trees) you get all these raid guilding telling you how to spec your character for max DPS, optimal min/maxing, and when it comes down to it, everybody has the same character in the end.

And regards to open world. You have to realize that in the past the corridor shooters were a product of limited computing power. In order to get decent FPS, they had to make the game corridor (binary trees!) and we no longer have that issue. Which is why games are now more open.

I don't see it as the guilds require min/maxing, its really the game. to do well in those raids, you need to have optimal character specs and stuff. if they didn't make it so difficult, then you could go in with any spec you wanted.

 

[Whirlwind]

I don't get it. You get a few rail shooters like CoD and everyone screams bloody murder. You not don't like open world games without RPG elements and you don't like RPG elements. They just can't please you guys can they?

I am pleased...I like all style of shooters , as long as the shooting mechanics are done right.....I dont want to have to jump thru hoops to get my input controls the way they should be.

The one thing about open ended RPG/Shooter hybrids is that you can still pretty much go thru them as more of just a shooter.

Only do the tasks needed to advance the story line .

If anyone has not played Call Of Pripyat like this, it is a must experience.

Use the Wish Granter in the console to get any weapons and armour and ammo at any time ....With that kind of fire power it is time to hit the zone in the dark and take care of business :biggrin:
Oh, and i also suggest the complete mod to make the experience even better yet!

 

[Veliko]

Assistance? God forbid you are forced to think and experiment. Fail.

Fail what, exactly?

It just ends up being number-crunching on Excel spreadsheets.

 

[brandonb]

I don't see it as the guilds require min/maxing, its really the game. to do well in those raids, you need to have optimal character specs and stuff. if they didn't make it so difficult, then you could go in with any spec you wanted.

I somewhat agree with you. Specs don't matter unless you are attempting to meet a challenge with x number of characters.

Older games like EQ, you had raids in which you could bring as many people as you wanted, be it 20 or 100... So, if you had to meet a challenge, you just brought in more players to make it easier, and "spec" or person didn't really matter, if it was a low DPS character, who cares, there is no artificial max or limit to the number you had in a raid. So anybody could help contribute.

With newer games, they cater the raids to x number of players, so if you had 20 max players, and you need dps, you would never bring in a cleric to fill that spot, and if you only had a cleric to bring in, they had to be high dps and had to min/max. That is just a dumb mechanic in my opinion.

/wants old school games again

 

[Chiropteran]

Assistance? God forbid you are forced to think and experiment. Fail.

But that isn't what you are forced to do. You are forced to do a really complex math problem comparing all possibilities to figure out which set of talents gives 3.14% more damage than any other combination.

 

[DaveSimmons]

I like them if the cost for respecs are reasonable, preferably free for the first one.

Some games like Star Wars TOR need dual-spec though, so you can shift roles between healing and DPS, or tank and DPS, or PVP vs. PVE.

Apparently Star Trek Online makes you pay real-world cash to respec as one of the free to play gotchas.

 

[Coltaine]

I'm a huge fan of customization, but really dont like going about it using the popular implementations of skill trees. Theres generally too many constraints and limitations injecting skills into a level gated game that way (IMO).

A well done skill based character development system where gains come through usage beats any skill point distribution across a tree system no matter how the points come (exp, quest reward, story line) but its more difficult for the player to manage and the dev shop to "balance" so I'm not surprised the majority of games go with the skill tree option.

 

[Chiropteran]

I like them if the cost for respecs are reasonable, preferably free for the first one.

It becomes pointless though. If you can change spec easily and freely then spec is no longer meaningful as you can simply optimize your spec for every task at hand.

While not a great game overall, Shadowbane had the most amazing character building and "talent" system. I feel like newer games could learn a lot from the system used by Shadowbane. You could build multiple characters of the same class completely different, and because it wasn't a simple 1g respec you didn't just have everyone shift over to the popular build of the week instantly (although people would roll new characters to copy a highly popular build). The game did have a respec function, but it was something where respecing 1 skill or atribute point was cheap but the cost doubled each time, and the cost reset after 1 real life day. This is a game with 300+ skill points, so fully respeccing a character for any reasonable cost would take months, but you did have the option to tweak a few points occasionally without spending too much.