Always been curious about this: I've never bothered to downshift and why should I start?

[Pacfanweb]

Originally posted by: AgaBooga

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb

Originally posted by: guapo337
Yes you're missing something. Going in neutral isn't always good.

Engine breaking is, in fact, good for the engine.

Says who? I say it's not. Not that it's necessarily bad for the engine, but I see no benefit.

Don't bother to downshift. Brakes=cheap. Clutch and synchros=not cheap.

Honestly, transmissions are built to take quite a bit of abuse, but there's really no reason to downshift constantly just to slow down.
Dropping back from 5th to 4th, or 4th to 3rd for a long, gradual slowdown doesn't hurt the trans much, but going back into 2nd or 1st is where you'll work the synchros the hardest.

So on my turns would it be better to downshift to third? My dad has me slow down enough to get into second when I take turns.

If you're going slow enough when you turn, going to 2nd is okay. If 3rd will get you back up to speed okay, then it's the better option. Basically, if you take a turn, and the engine is bogging in 3rd gear, it's pretty much alright to go to 2nd.
Also keep in mind that my saying it's better to just use the brakes has to do with getting the absolute most mileage from your clutch/tranny. The trans is built to stand up to some downshifting, but it you want to put the absolute least wear on it, the way to do that is not downshift.
You really don't need engine braking.....today's automatic cars don't use it to any real extent, and if they don't need it, a stick car doesn't need it.
For those who would argue with me about autos not using engine braking, don't bother.....the only time they do is if you let one coast for a pretty long time, then it might unlock the converter and let the engine help slow the car, but this would only be of much use coasting down from highway speeds. The only way to get any real engine braking from an auto is to manually downshift it. Drop one into 2nd at 55 mph and you'll see what I mean. 😉

 

[Pacfanweb]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: Murphyrulez
The less you hit your brakes, the longer they will last, meaning more $$ in your pocket.

you are trading brake pad wear for clutch wear. what's the diff??

Lots of money. Brakes are cheap, clutches are not.

 

[amdskip]

If you have power steering, etc., it will take a hit with the motor at a lower rpm. Its hard on a motor idling too.

 

[SWScorch]

I know around here it's illegal to have the car in neutral for an extended period of time. You should downshift as you brake, so in case of an emergency and you need to suddenly accelerate, the car is already in gear so you don't waste any time.

As for going down a steep hill, if you downshift, then the engine and transmission slow you down, instead of the brakes, and in a lower gear you stay at a slower speed instead of gaining speed again as you would in a higher gear.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb
On ice, your best bet is to go very, very slow. If you're going fast enough on ice to even be in a high enough gear to be able to downshift[/b], you are a Darwinization candidate.

*knock knock*

When driving on ice, 1st gear usually exerts too much engine torque on the wheels in order to acquire usuable traction, and sudden but very slight variations in throttle can cause a loss of control. This is why experienced manual drivers upshift in such conditions even when travelling at relatively low speeds.

yup, it seems to me that when on ice you are better off in neutral as your are less likely to break traction. downshifting on ice is probably just as stupid as braking hard on ice.

 

[Pacfanweb]

Originally posted by: amdskip
If you have power steering, etc., it will take a hit with the motor at a lower rpm. Its hard on a motor idling too.

Today's power steering systems are variable, so that's not a problem.

Also, it doesn't hurt a engine to idle at all. I don't know why people think this. You can let one idle all day, and it won't hurt a thing.
What do you think cop cars and taxis do? And their engines are usually in good shape after lots of miles, if maintained properly.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: Murphyrulez
The less you hit your brakes, the longer they will last, meaning more $$ in your pocket.

you are trading brake pad wear for clutch wear. what's the diff??

Lots of money. Brakes are cheap, clutches are not.

i agree with you, i was just pointing out to murphyrulez that just because you don't use the brakes and have less wear on brake pads DOES not mean you save money. he completely forgot that what you save on brake pad wear you will lose out on clutch wear.

 

[merlocka]

Always been curious about this: I've never bothered to downshift and why should I start?

If I need to slow down, I depress the clutch to gear into neutral then brake to any desired speed.

Ok, so what do you do when you reach the desired speed? Put the car in a lower gear, engage the clutch, and drive?

Isn't that pretty much a downshift?

Are you asking when/why you should immediatly shift to a lower gear?

Perhaps you are slowing for a turn, brake & disengage clutch, RPM drop, choose lower gear, match RPM, engage clutch and drive away?

Not sure what this thread is about, other than a bunch of ATOT driving experts explaining about how everyone should drive stick.

 

[Pacfanweb]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb
On ice, your best bet is to go very, very slow. If you're going fast enough on ice to even be in a high enough gear to be able to downshift[/b], you are a Darwinization candidate.

*knock knock*

When driving on ice, 1st gear usually exerts too much engine torque on the wheels in order to acquire usuable traction, and sudden but very slight variations in throttle can cause a loss of control. This is why experienced manual drivers upshift in such conditions even when travelling at relatively low speeds.

Not going down a hill, they don't. They creep along very slowly, at a speed that it won't matter if you're in 1st or not.
At these speeds, you're using the brakes primarily, especially on a RWD car.

 

[vi edit]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: Murphyrulez
The less you hit your brakes, the longer they will last, meaning more $$ in your pocket.

you are trading brake pad wear for clutch wear. what's the diff??

Lots of money. Brakes are cheap, clutches are not.

i agree with you, i was just pointing out to murphyrulez that just because you don't use the brakes and have less wear on brake pads DOES not mean you save money. he completely forgot that what you save on brake pad wear you will lose out on clutch wear.

I guess it depends on your definition of "engine braking". I just know that when I left a car in gear, it would slow down much quicker than an equivalent auto...without needing to downshift. I use the brakes in a vehicle MUCH less in a manual transmission than I do in an auto tranny'd car. And that's without dropping it down in gears at excessively high RPM's.

 

[merlocka]

Originally posted by: Murphyrulez
i agree with you, i was just pointing out to murphyrulez that just because you don't use the brakes and have less wear on brake pads DOES not mean you save money. he completely forgot that what you save on brake pad wear you will lose out on clutch wear.

If you drive a manual well, the only significant clutch wear occurs when starting from a complete stop.

If you are significantly wearing down the clutch after 1st gear (in either up or down shifts), you don't quite have the hang of it.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb

Not going down a hill, they don't. They creep along very slowly, at a speed that it won't matter if you're in 1st or not.
At these speeds, you're using the brakes primarily, especially on a RWD car.

While in that circumstance, I would be creeping along VERY slowly, I wouldn't even have my foot resting anywhere near the brake pedal....

 

[cressida]

Maybe I'll stick with auto since I will never shift like the pros 😎

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: merlocka

Originally posted by: Murphyrulez
i agree with you, i was just pointing out to murphyrulez that just because you don't use the brakes and have less wear on brake pads DOES not mean you save money. he completely forgot that what you save on brake pad wear you will lose out on clutch wear.

If you drive a manual well, the only significant clutch wear occurs when starting from a complete stop.

If you are significantly wearing down the clutch after 1st gear (in either up or down shifts), you don't quite have the hang of it.

mb i misread the OP, but i understood him to be talking about engine braking, using your clutch and engine to stop you instead of your brakes. i can say without reservation that no matter HOW good you are with the clutch, there will be clutch wear when doing engine braking.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: vi_edit

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: Murphyrulez
The less you hit your brakes, the longer they will last, meaning more $$ in your pocket.

you are trading brake pad wear for clutch wear. what's the diff??

Lots of money. Brakes are cheap, clutches are not.

i agree with you, i was just pointing out to murphyrulez that just because you don't use the brakes and have less wear on brake pads DOES not mean you save money. he completely forgot that what you save on brake pad wear you will lose out on clutch wear.

I guess it depends on your definition of "engine braking". I just know that when I left a car in gear, it would slow down much quicker than an equivalent auto...without needing to downshift. I use the brakes in a vehicle MUCH less in a manual transmission than I do in an auto tranny'd car. And that's without dropping it down in gears at excessively high RPM's.

i always thought "engine braking" was when they geared down and forced the car to slow down using engine compression. a great technique to know in case your brakes fail, but not recommended in daily driving (that part is obviously just my opinion)

 

[boyRacer]

Originally posted by: Vic
You should always be in control of your car, and that means being in gear, as much as possible.
This doesn't mean you need to use downshifting to brake the car though... that's unnecessary with today's brakes. And the argument that downshifting saves wear on brakes.... sigh... how stupid are people these days?... :frown: Obviously brakes cost less to repair/replace than clutches and transmissions, so you want to put the majority of the stopping effort on the brakes.

So... the reason to downshift is not to brake, but because coasting in neutral means that you are not in control of your car. So as the car begins to slow, ride it in gear until you slow below the usable rev range of that gear, then gently downshift into the next gear, ride that until you slow below its usable rev range, rinse and repeat, etc. If you are slowing to a stop, it is unnecessary to downshift into 2nd (do that only when slowing for sharper turns).
Done properly, it is no harder on your car's drivetrain than upshifting and should be smooth and unnoticeable to your passengers.

And NEVER downshift into 1st gear while moving faster than 5 mph. It is completely unnecessary and can damage your transmission.

:beer: ... ^ he knows what he's talking about. 🙂

EDIT: BTW... all my friends that downshift into every gear as they approach a red... well they suck at it so the car just jerks along in EACH gear... 🙁 ... i just keep quiet. 😀

 

[boyRacer]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: vi_edit

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: Murphyrulez
The less you hit your brakes, the longer they will last, meaning more $$ in your pocket.

you are trading brake pad wear for clutch wear. what's the diff??

Lots of money. Brakes are cheap, clutches are not.

i agree with you, i was just pointing out to murphyrulez that just because you don't use the brakes and have less wear on brake pads DOES not mean you save money. he completely forgot that what you save on brake pad wear you will lose out on clutch wear.

I guess it depends on your definition of "engine braking". I just know that when I left a car in gear, it would slow down much quicker than an equivalent auto...without needing to downshift. I use the brakes in a vehicle MUCH less in a manual transmission than I do in an auto tranny'd car. And that's without dropping it down in gears at excessively high RPM's.

i always thought "engine braking" was when they geared down and forced the car to slow down using engine compression. a great technique to know in case your brakes fail, but not recommended in daily driving (that part is obviously just my opinion)

isn't that what it always was? 😕 F1 drivers use this a lot... which is why many of them use 7 gears... 😀

i hope people don't think engine braking can be substituted for actual braking during emergency situations. :Q

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: boyRacer
isn't that what it always was? 😕 F1 drivers use this a lot... which is why many of them use 7 gears... 😀

i hope people don't think engine braking can be substituted for actual braking during emergency situations. :Q

agreed. in my opinion the ONLY time engine braking should really be used is when your actual brakes fail.

 

[ErmanC]

If you can't find 'em, grind 'em. Brakes are for sisies....

🙂

 

[vi edit]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: boyRacer
isn't that what it always was? 😕 F1 drivers use this a lot... which is why many of them use 7 gears... 😀

i hope people don't think engine braking can be substituted for actual braking during emergency situations. :Q

agreed. in my opinion the ONLY time engine braking should really be used is when your actual brakes fail.

I guess my definition of "engine breaking" is a bit more liberal then. I use the engine to slow down my car but I don't slam it down into a lower gear to do it. Any manual tranmission car that I've had will slow itself down much quicker than an auto. On a highway or in town I will let the car naturally slow itself down. If you let enough of a following distance between you and the person in front of you, you will almost never need to use your brakes.

 

[StormRider]

Originally posted by: LOLyourFace
If I need to slow down, I depress the clutch to gear into neutral then brake to any desired speed.

*It's better than downshifting when braking to a stop because the eventual task of putting into neutral is already done, simply continue depressing the brake to stay still.

*It's better than downshifting when braking to a slower speed because neutral-braking makes the car feel much more 'free' becaues it's not bound to any gears and is not engaged to the wheels, eliminating the unneccesary wear on the clutch.

Am I missing something? 😕

You drive like a girl....

 

[RollWave]

Originally posted by: AgaBooga

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb

Originally posted by: guapo337
Yes you're missing something. Going in neutral isn't always good.

Engine breaking is, in fact, good for the engine.

Says who? I say it's not. Not that it's necessarily bad for the engine, but I see no benefit.

Don't bother to downshift. Brakes=cheap. Clutch and synchros=not cheap.

Honestly, transmissions are built to take quite a bit of abuse, but there's really no reason to downshift constantly just to slow down.
Dropping back from 5th to 4th, or 4th to 3rd for a long, gradual slowdown doesn't hurt the trans much, but going back into 2nd or 1st is where you'll work the synchros the hardest.

So on my turns would it be better to downshift to third? My dad has me slow down enough to get into second when I take turns.

How fast are you going when you turn? 3rd is pretty damn high, i dunno if you can maintain proper rpms without turning so hard you peel out

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

If you need to slow down (stoplight), pop it in neutral and use the brakes. Downshifting through all the gears is just more useless wear on the tranny, clutch & engine.

If you need to maintain a slow speed (going down a hill) downshift and stay off the brakes. Riding the brakes will cause them to heat up may cause them to fail, or at least increase the stopping distance if you have to come to a sudden stop.

 

[Conky]

Brakes are cheaper to replace than engines, clutches, and trannies. Leave the engine braking to guys who race for a living. 😉

 

[amdskip]

It does too hurt an engine sitting idling. Its hard on the crank mainly and thats not exactly a cheap repair.