Alleged desecration of the Quran/Koran @ Guantanamo

[dahunan]

Piece OF Paper - religion is an individual heartfelt thing... God does not respect a group more than AN INDIVIDUAL

[/end of argument]

 

[RabidMongoose]

The matter of a flag vs a holy book is on two different levels. One is a symbol of power, pride and self-identity, while the other is, from a Muslim's point of view, the literal spoken word of God preserved since it's revelation.

That doesn't matter though. The meaning and significance of the flag or book to each individual could easily be more than what you think it is. Therefore burning the Koran or whatever could be just as offensive as burning a flag and vice versa. In the end it's all stupid and hypocritical.

 

[5ayle]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

The matter of a flag vs a holy book is on two different levels. One is a symbol of power, pride and self-identity, while the other is, from a Muslim's point of view, the literal spoken word of God preserved since it's revelation.

That doesn't matter though. The meaning and significance of the flag or book to each individual could easily be more than what you think it is. Therefore burning the Koran or whatever could be just as offensive as burning a flag and vice versa. In the end it's all stupid and hypocritical.

Ok I can see that. Since there are different levels of importance to different people. But I'm still leaning that they are different. Thing is, it isn't just a book for many people it is The Book, like the Bible and the Torah. As muslim the word of God, with the correct interpretation, out weighs anything else. I'm trying to see how far one can take the alleigance to the flag and I just don't see it as the same... sorry. Agreement to disagree?

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: 5ayle

The protestors were college students, which in Afghanistan is probably people in there mid-30's.

Why do they attend college in their mid-30s instead of earlier?

 

[5ayle]

Originally posted by: dahunan
Piece OF Paper - religion is an individual heartfelt thing... God does not respect a group more than AN INDIVIDUAL

[/end of argument]

To say that you have an understanding of God better than others is a mistake. More importantly what understanding of God are you speaking about? A muslim one, a christian one or jewish one? From the point of veiw of Judaism and Islam I believe you are wrong.

Abraham was given the covenent for his progeny, a group. For example, Job was not part of God covenant and he went through his test..

In Islam a integral part of the faith is the ummah, or the community. The ummah is there to support each other.

I'm not sure about christianity since there is a lot variance in modern Christian belief, but I'm sure that are some denominations that feel they are the only ones that have the right interpretation. Like, churches that denounce other churches as "bloodless chuches." To go deeper Jesus denounces, many times, according to the Gospels, people who are non-believers.



I'm thinking that your understanding of God is a personal one, and being so cannot be applied to everyone.

 

[5ayle]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Originally posted by: 5ayle

The protestors were college students, which in Afghanistan is probably people in there mid-30's.

Why do they attend college in their mid-30s instead of earlier?

A quarter century of war and oppression makes it hard for institutions to function properly.

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: 5ayle

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

The matter of a flag vs a holy book is on two different levels. One is a symbol of power, pride and self-identity, while the other is, from a Muslim's point of view, the literal spoken word of God preserved since it's revelation.

That doesn't matter though. The meaning and significance of the flag or book to each individual could easily be more than what you think it is. Therefore burning the Koran or whatever could be just as offensive as burning a flag and vice versa. In the end it's all stupid and hypocritical.

Ok I can see that. Since there are different levels of importance to different people. But I'm still leaning that they are different. Thing is, it isn't just a book for many people it is The Book, like the Bible and the Torah. As muslim the word of God, with the correct interpretation, out weighs anything else. I'm trying to see how far one can take the alleigance to the flag and I just don't see it as the same... sorry. Agreement to disagree?

Yeah, we'll probably have to agree to disagree.

I just see that anybody that riots and murders due to something so insignificant has some serious problems, most likely lying in extremism in some form, be it desecrating a book, flag, or whatever common inanimate object.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: ntdz

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: gallivanter

Originally posted by: conjur
mmm hmmm.

Definitely some arm-twisting from the White House there.

Yeah, it couldn't be that they really screwed up, could it?

Highly unlikely given this administration's reputation in Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib, and elsewhere.

ROFL, you have a conspiracy theory for everything. What a dumbass.

Nice insult. And, will you be given a vacation for it? Doubtful.

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: ntdz

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: gallivanter

Originally posted by: conjur
mmm hmmm.

Definitely some arm-twisting from the White House there.

Yeah, it couldn't be that they really screwed up, could it?

Highly unlikely given this administration's reputation in Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib, and elsewhere.

ROFL, you have a conspiracy theory for everything. What a dumbass.

Nice insult. And, will you be given a vacation for it? Doubtful.

Probably not, but I've seen worse personal insults like somone calling another person an 'evil doer' which sounds far far worse.

 

[phisrow]

What really unnerves me about this issue is some of the reactions we've been seeing from our own government. Now, it may well be said to be in poor taste to desecrate books that people take seriously, especially for cooercive ends(and if the Quaran in question belonged to the detainee, then it was theft to take it away); but it isn't illegal. Being able to do what we want with any book, flag, or other symbol or document of any position whatsoever(so long as we own it and obtained it by legal and ethical means) is absolutely essential to a free society. And yet, we have statements like; "Disrespect for the holy Koran is not now, nor has it ever been, nor will it ever be, tolerated by the United States"-(Condoleezza Rice) popping up. WTF? The United States has a constitutional obligation to stand by and take disrespect for any religious document by any person(so long as it doesn't cross the line into violence, which is a human rights issue).

 

[Aegeon]

Originally posted by: phisrow
What really unnerves me about this issue is some of the reactions we've been seeing from our own government. Now, it may well be said to be in poor taste to desecrate books that people take seriously, especially for cooercive ends(and if the Quaran in question belonged to the detainee, then it was theft to take it away); but it isn't illegal. Being able to do what we want with any book, flag, or other symbol or document of any position whatsoever(so long as we own it and obtained it by legal and ethical means) is absolutely essential to a free society. And yet, we have statements like; "Disrespect for the holy Koran is not now, nor has it ever been, nor will it ever be, tolerated by the United States"-(Condoleezza Rice) popping up. WTF? The United States has a constitutional obligation to stand by and take disrespect for any religious document by any person(so long as it doesn't cross the line into violence, which is a human rights issue).

The last statement may be problematic, although its probably mostly an overreaction to recent events. The difference between a hate crime and legitimate freedom of expression if often a fine one, although generally you should be able to destroy a Koran in the US legally.

What you seem to be missing is that in this case it was an employee of the US Government that allegedly descricrated the Koran. (The recent report suggets this may not have happened at all, but let's ignore that for the moment.) That's an entrirely different matter than a private citizen on his own, and to some degree implies the US Government approaves of his behavoir unless he is disiplined for his action. The soldier also jepardized the War on Terror by his action which shold have logically incurred little benefit for his professional duties. There are sound reasons why the soldier should be in trouble if the allegation is true.

 

[ntdz]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: ntdz

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: gallivanter

Originally posted by: conjur
mmm hmmm.

Definitely some arm-twisting from the White House there.

Yeah, it couldn't be that they really screwed up, could it?

Highly unlikely given this administration's reputation in Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib, and elsewhere.

ROFL, you have a conspiracy theory for everything. What a dumbass.

Nice insult. And, will you be given a vacation for it? Doubtful.

Why should I get a vacation for stating the truth? You clearly have such a big bias against Bush and our country, that even when allegations are proven false and the original source of the allegations admits they were wrong, you STILL believe the allegations are true and instead think it's some government conspiracy. That's pretty dumb IMHO.

 

[OCNewbie]

Originally posted by: ntdz

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: gallivanter

Originally posted by: conjur
mmm hmmm.

Definitely some arm-twisting from the White House there.

Yeah, it couldn't be that they really screwed up, could it?

Highly unlikely given this administration's reputation in Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib, and elsewhere.

ROFL, you have a conspiracy theory for everything. What a dumbass.

Agreed to the umpteenth degree. I'm sure conjur is an intelligent individual, so why do people like him trip over themselves trying to latch on to every conspiracy theory that pops up?

 

[dahunan]

Originally posted by: OCNewbie

Originally posted by: ntdz

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: gallivanter

Originally posted by: conjur
mmm hmmm.

Definitely some arm-twisting from the White House there.

Yeah, it couldn't be that they really screwed up, could it?

Highly unlikely given this administration's reputation in Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib, and elsewhere.

ROFL, you have a conspiracy theory for everything. What a dumbass.

Agreed to the umpteenth degree. I'm sure conjur is an intelligent individual, so why do people like him trip over themselves trying to latch on to every conspiracy theory that pops up?

Because this Government will lie just to sell their healthcare plan and will call John McCain and his Wife HORRIBLE names just to win an election

They will lie about everything and anything to do with 9/11

The current Attorney General of the United States of America is the one who told the Abu Ghraib torturers how to get around the Geneva Conventions so they could torture the Arabs

What do you think about the Bush Supporters who never criticize anything that thief does?

 

[Ozoned]

Rove was behind this to improve the properganderists ratins. Heh heh.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: ntdz
Why should I get a vacation for stating the truth? You clearly have such a big bias against Bush and our country, that even when allegations are proven false and the original source of the allegations admits they were wrong, you STILL believe the allegations are true and instead think it's some government conspiracy. That's pretty dumb IMHO.

<ahem>

Newsweek report on Quran matches many earlier accounts
http://rawstory.com/exclusives/newsweek_koran_report_516.htm

Contrary to White House assertions, the allegations of religious desecration at Guantanamo published by Newsweek May 6 are common among ex-prisoners and have been widely reported outside the United States, RAW STORY has learned.

Several former detainees at the Guantanamo and Bagram airbase prisons have reported instances of their handlers sitting or standing on the Quran, throwing or kicking it in toilets, and urinating on it.

Where the Newsweek report likely erred was in saying that the U.S. was slated to acknowledge desecrating the Quran in internal investigations, and in relying on a single anonymous source to make grave allegations. But reports of desecration are manifold.

One such incident?during which the Koran allegedly was thrown in a pile and stepped on?prompted a hunger strike among Guantanamo detainees in Mar. 2002, which led to an apology. The New York Times interviewed former detainee Nasser Nijer Naser al-Mutairi May 1, who said the protest ended with a senior officer delivering an apology to the entire camp.

"A former interrogator at Guantanamo, in an interview with the Times, confirmed the accounts of the hunger strikes, including the public expression of regret over the treatment of the Korans," Times reporters Neil A. Lewis and Eric Schmitt wrote in "Inquiry Finds Abuses at Guantanamo Bay."

The hunger strike and apology story was also confirmed by another former detainee, Shafiq Rasul, interviewed by the UK Guardian in 2003 (James Meek, "The people the law forgot," Guardian, Dec. 3, 2003) It was also confirmed by former prisoner Jamal al-Harith in an interview with the Daily Mirror (Rosa Prince and Gary Jones, "My Hell in Camp X-ray World Exclusive," Daily Mirror, Mar. 12, 2004).

The toilet incident was reported in the Washington Post in a 2003 interview with a former detainee from Afghanistan:

"Ehsannullah, 29, said American soldiers who initially questioned him in Kandahar before shipping him to Guantanamo hit him and taunted him by dumping the Koran in a toilet. ?It was a very bad situation for us,? said Ehsannullah, who comes from the home region of the Taliban leader, Mohammad Omar. ?We cried so much and shouted, Please do not do that to the Holy Koran.? (Marc Kaufman and April Witt, "Out of Legal Limbo, Some Tell of Mistreatment," Washington Post, Mar. 26, 2003.)

Also citing the toilet incident is testimony by Asif Iqbal, a former Guantanamo detainee who was released to British custody in Mar. 2004 and subsequently freed without charge:

"The behaviour of the guards towards our religious practices as well as the Koran was also, in my view, designed to cause us as much distress as possible. They would kick the Koran, throw it into the toilet and generally disrespect it." (Center for Constitution Rights, Detention in Afghanistan and Guantanamo Bay, (Aug. 4, 2004, deposition available here.)

The claim that US troops at Bagram airbase prison in Afghanistan urinated on the Koran was made by former detainee Mohamed Mazouz, a Moroccan, as reported in the Moroccan newspaper, La Gazette du Maroc. (Abdelhak Najib, "Les Américains pissaient sur le Coran et abusaient de nous sexuellement", Apr. 11, 2005). An English translation is available on the Cage Prisoners web site (which describes itself as a "non-sectarian Islamic human rights website"): http://www.cageprisoners.com/print.php?id=6862

Tarek Derghoul, another of the British detainees, similarly cites instances of Koran desecration in an interview with Cageprisoners.com, available at: http://www.cageprisoners.com/articles.php?id=1611

Desecration of the Koran was also mentioned by former Guantanamo detainee Abdul Rahim Muslim Dost and reported by the BBC in early May 2005. (Haroon Rashid, "Ex-inmates share Guantanamo ordeal," May 2, 2005).

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: ntdz
Why should I get a vacation for stating the truth? You clearly have such a big bias against Bush and our country, that even when allegations are proven false and the original source of the allegations admits they were wrong, you STILL believe the allegations are true and instead think it's some government conspiracy. That's pretty dumb IMHO.

<ahem>

Newsweek report on Quran matches many earlier accounts
http://rawstory.com/exclusives/newsweek_koran_report_516.htm

Contrary to White House assertions, the allegations of religious desecration at Guantanamo published by Newsweek May 6 are common among ex-prisoners and have been widely reported outside the United States, RAW STORY has learned.

Several former detainees at the Guantanamo and Bagram airbase prisons have reported instances of their handlers sitting or standing on the Quran, throwing or kicking it in toilets, and urinating on it.

Where the Newsweek report likely erred was in saying that the U.S. was slated to acknowledge desecrating the Quran in internal investigations, and in relying on a single anonymous source to make grave allegations. But reports of desecration are manifold.

One such incident?during which the Koran allegedly was thrown in a pile and stepped on?prompted a hunger strike among Guantanamo detainees in Mar. 2002, which led to an apology. The New York Times interviewed former detainee Nasser Nijer Naser al-Mutairi May 1, who said the protest ended with a senior officer delivering an apology to the entire camp.

"A former interrogator at Guantanamo, in an interview with the Times, confirmed the accounts of the hunger strikes, including the public expression of regret over the treatment of the Korans," Times reporters Neil A. Lewis and Eric Schmitt wrote in "Inquiry Finds Abuses at Guantanamo Bay."

The hunger strike and apology story was also confirmed by another former detainee, Shafiq Rasul, interviewed by the UK Guardian in 2003 (James Meek, "The people the law forgot," Guardian, Dec. 3, 2003) It was also confirmed by former prisoner Jamal al-Harith in an interview with the Daily Mirror (Rosa Prince and Gary Jones, "My Hell in Camp X-ray World Exclusive," Daily Mirror, Mar. 12, 2004).

The toilet incident was reported in the Washington Post in a 2003 interview with a former detainee from Afghanistan:

"Ehsannullah, 29, said American soldiers who initially questioned him in Kandahar before shipping him to Guantanamo hit him and taunted him by dumping the Koran in a toilet. ?It was a very bad situation for us,? said Ehsannullah, who comes from the home region of the Taliban leader, Mohammad Omar. ?We cried so much and shouted, Please do not do that to the Holy Koran.? (Marc Kaufman and April Witt, "Out of Legal Limbo, Some Tell of Mistreatment," Washington Post, Mar. 26, 2003.)

Also citing the toilet incident is testimony by Asif Iqbal, a former Guantanamo detainee who was released to British custody in Mar. 2004 and subsequently freed without charge:

"The behaviour of the guards towards our religious practices as well as the Koran was also, in my view, designed to cause us as much distress as possible. They would kick the Koran, throw it into the toilet and generally disrespect it." (Center for Constitution Rights, Detention in Afghanistan and Guantanamo Bay, (Aug. 4, 2004, deposition available here.)

The claim that US troops at Bagram airbase prison in Afghanistan urinated on the Koran was made by former detainee Mohamed Mazouz, a Moroccan, as reported in the Moroccan newspaper, La Gazette du Maroc. (Abdelhak Najib, "Les Américains pissaient sur le Coran et abusaient de nous sexuellement", Apr. 11, 2005). An English translation is available on the Cage Prisoners web site (which describes itself as a "non-sectarian Islamic human rights website"): http://www.cageprisoners.com/print.php?id=6862

Tarek Derghoul, another of the British detainees, similarly cites instances of Koran desecration in an interview with Cageprisoners.com, available at: http://www.cageprisoners.com/articles.php?id=1611

Desecration of the Koran was also mentioned by former Guantanamo detainee Abdul Rahim Muslim Dost and reported by the BBC in early May 2005. (Haroon Rashid, "Ex-inmates share Guantanamo ordeal," May 2, 2005).

More "fake but accurate"? :laugh:

:roll:


CsG

 

[conjur]

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.h...res=F50617F935550C728CDDAC0894DD404482

DISPLAYING FIRST 50 OF 1223 WORDS - A high-level military investigation into accusations of detainee abuse at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, has concluded that several prisoners were mistreated or humiliated, perhaps illegally, as a result of efforts to devise innovative methods to gain information, senior military and Pentagon officials

Calling the military fake now, CsG?

To what depths will you stoop to defend this miserable failure of an administration? Or, are you just trolling again?

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: conjur
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.h...res=F50617F935550C728CDDAC0894DD404482

DISPLAYING FIRST 50 OF 1223 WORDS - A high-level military investigation into accusations of detainee abuse at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, has concluded that several prisoners were mistreated or humiliated, perhaps illegally, as a result of efforts to devise innovative methods to gain information, senior military and Pentagon officials

Calling the military fake now, CsG?

To what depths will you stoop to defend this miserable failure of an administration? Or, are you just trolling again?

No conjur, I was not calling the military fake, but I always enjoy reading your obtuse tirades.😛 What I did say was that your little link is more of the "fake but accurate" tripe thrown around by your types. The incident that newsweek reported turned out to be false. There may be other allegations - but this one seems to be misreported by newsweek.

CsG

 

[conjur]

So, you *are* calling the military investigation fake. Interesting.

And Newsweek misreported this one instance because of the Pentagon official's statements. Aren't you going to lambast the Pentagon official or do you feel it's ok for him to misspeak but not for Newsweek to print it? BTW, nice of you to so easily dismiss other documented abuses of the Quran that Newsweek could have printed.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: conjur
So, you *are* calling the military investigation fake. Interesting.

And Newsweek misreported this one instance because of the Pentagon official's statements. Aren't you going to lambast the Pentagon official or do you feel it's ok for him to misspeak but not for Newsweek to print it? BTW, nice of you to so easily dismiss other documented abuses of the Quran that Newsweek could have printed.

No, I am not. You can twist and distort things however you wish but the FACT is that newsweek "misreported" it yet you sit here pushing it is accurate. It's just like cBS and Bush's ANG report. The document was fake but your types settled on the "fake but accurate" BS.

Meh, believe what you wish...

CsG

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: BUSHsortaGUY

Originally posted by: conjur
So, you *are* calling the military investigation fake. Interesting.

And Newsweek misreported this one instance because of the Pentagon official's statements. Aren't you going to lambast the Pentagon official or do you feel it's ok for him to misspeak but not for Newsweek to print it? BTW, nice of you to so easily dismiss other documented abuses of the Quran that Newsweek could have printed.

No, I am not. You can twist and distort things however you wish but the FACT is that newsweek "misreported" it yet you sit here pushing it is accurate. It's just like cBS and Bush's ANG report. The document was fake but your types settled on the "fake but accurate" BS.

Meh, believe what you wish...

CsG

Sorry, BSg, but no sale. Newsweek accurately reported the claims of this Pentagon official. He has now changed his story, presumably due to sincere confusion about which report mentioned desecrating the Quran/Koran. Newsweek has shown great integrity in apologizing and setting the record straight. Pity your boys in the White House won't show equal integrity about all of their "mistakes".

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: conjur
So, you *are* calling the military investigation fake. Interesting.

And Newsweek misreported this one instance because of the Pentagon official's statements. Aren't you going to lambast the Pentagon official or do you feel it's ok for him to misspeak but not for Newsweek to print it? BTW, nice of you to so easily dismiss other documented abuses of the Quran that Newsweek could have printed.

No, I am not. You can twist and distort things however you wish but the FACT is that newsweek "misreported" it yet you sit here pushing it is accurate. It's just like cBS and Bush's ANG report. The document was fake but your types settled on the "fake but accurate" BS.

Meh, believe what you wish...

CsG

I'm referring to the high-level military investigation that previously revealed abuses. Newsweek was not in the wrong to convey the general message that wrongs were done in Gitmo. They were duped by a Pentagon official and you hold them accountable? Shades of the Rather memo all over again.

Shoot the messenger and ignore the content. Typical right-wing m.o.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: conjur
So, you *are* calling the military investigation fake. Interesting.

And Newsweek misreported this one instance because of the Pentagon official's statements. Aren't you going to lambast the Pentagon official or do you feel it's ok for him to misspeak but not for Newsweek to print it? BTW, nice of you to so easily dismiss other documented abuses of the Quran that Newsweek could have printed.

No, I am not. You can twist and distort things however you wish but the FACT is that newsweek "misreported" it yet you sit here pushing it is accurate. It's just like cBS and Bush's ANG report. The document was fake but your types settled on the "fake but accurate" BS.

Meh, believe what you wish...

CsG

I'm referring to the high-level military investigation that previously revealed abuses. Newsweek was not in the wrong to convey the general message that wrongs were done in Gitmo. They were duped by a Pentagon official and you hold them accountable? Shades of the Rather memo all over again.

Shoot the messenger and ignore the content. Typical right-wing m.o.

:roll: The newsweek issue is about the "misreporting". No where did I say other things did not take place - however in the context of the retraction by newsweek - this is yet another example of the "fake but accurate" yammering from your types. It doesn't excuse the "misreporting" by newsweek. They chose to run with an anonymous source -they got burned.

CsG

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: BUSHsortaGUY
:roll: The newsweek issue is about the "misreporting". No where did I say other things did not take place - however in the context of the retraction by newsweek - this is yet another example of the "fake but accurate" yammering from your types. It doesn't excuse the "misreporting" by newsweek. They chose to run with an anonymous source -they got burned.

CsG

You can run from me BSg, but that doesn't change the dishonesty of your attack or the truth of what I said: "Newsweek accurately reported the claims of this Pentagon official. He has now changed his story, presumably due to sincere confusion about which report mentioned desecrating the Quran/Koran. Newsweek has shown great integrity in apologizing and setting the record straight. Pity your boys in the White House won't show equal integrity about all of their 'mistakes'."

Sorry, the truth hurts.