- Aug 22, 2001
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we are? i thought the subject of this post is regarding the lack of reaction from ati... besides, how can you define that as such when the remark you replied to didn't specify "performance"? he just said ati was kickin ass, and they are - but it seems nvidia is as well now in some respects.
the point being ati doesn't really need to react to anything as, at least intitially, as it will have little impact on their profitability. in the long run, we may find it may affect them, but they have plenty of time to do something about it. my comments were simply staying on the spirit of the topic.
Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER
The market for gaming systems is constantly growing. Dell certainly didn't jump in because it's a losing proposition. The percentages of market share being thrown around here also fail to account for the fact that while the percentage on the demographic pie chart may not have changed radically in the last 5yrs, it's a much bigger pie now
The fact is that PC gaming has grown tremendously since the voodoo SLI days and there's much more money in it now than ever before. There is no comparison between now and then, the industry has grown, and with it, the on-line multiplayer community's growth, combined with many more homes getting broadband, have made PC and even console gaming much more dynamic than ever before. Ati would be making a serious mistake if they don't embrace this tech IMHO.
while i agree on some of your points, i don't see that "sli" will have any significant impact, other than perhaps sway some of the gamers due to the "innovation" and "prestige" factor that nvidia will be recieving, rather than those that will acutally own a dual card solution. keep in mind only a very small % of the gamer market will simply spend the additional $ simply for the "coolness" factor (obviously there are always those that will, just like the crazy cooling setups some ppl have), rather they will spend what it takes to run the game they want to play well - and none require dual gfx card.
frankly, i see this as a bigger impact in the gfx workstation segment (it make ALOT of sense there) than the gaming segment. perhpas that's why it will initially be an oem solution?
- Aug 22, 2001
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I agree that the workstation is the first to capitalize off this tech but I still believe what I heard Anand say over a web cast, 2 x-mas ago I believe it was, still holds true. He said packaging technology must improve, and until it does, it looks like most big tech corps have concluded parallelism is the answer. In 3yrs multiple CPU/core systems with multiple vid cards may be the standard in high-end gaming systems, a market that is growing rapidly and not really just a niche' market anymore.
Edit: this is just a conservative projection of growth in the gaming industry Text
<a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://www.gamespot.com/news/2004/05/28/news_6099584.html">predictions of gaming industry growth. They call it "Moore?s Law and Electronic Games" intriguing stuff IMO
</a>
Edit: this is just a conservative projection of growth in the gaming industry Text
<a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://www.gamespot.com/news/2004/05/28/news_6099584.html">predictions of gaming industry growth. They call it "Moore?s Law and Electronic Games" intriguing stuff IMO
</a>
It makes invalid every point made by people with the spike haired guy avatar for the last year and a half, that's what makes it good for the industry.
Seriously, do you guys all work at ATI?
Dude, you must have set the controls of your time machine wrong! It's 2004 where ATI released a chip with the same feature set as the one they put out in 2002!
This year, nVidia put out a more advanced card, with better drivers, with more features, and you can sli it to double the power.
All ATI has this year is cheaper price sometimes, less performance, and 3Dc, a new texture compression technique that no games use.
- Aug 22, 2001
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From the link I provided above
If parallelism can provide the performance increase packaging technology for a single card solution can't, it's gonna be HUGE.
If parallelism can provide the performance increase packaging technology for a single card solution can't, it's gonna be HUGE.
Why so much hate over NVs SLI? This is a fairly awsome upgrade path for those of us down the road. I know my 939 FX-53 (ill have it here soon) well be transplanted in the first good mobo that allows dual PCI-express and by then these board will be cheap enough to buy two out right, hell if the ultra is too much then Ill go dual GT's....since it looks like the GTs may be able to do this.
But then again it seems as if NV brought something different to the table (it isnt the same as the old school SLI ) and now everyonei s against it? Im willing to bet pretty hard here if ATi woulda came out with a link of some sort first...everyone would be bowing down to them....sad really.
This just gives us all as consumers more options as to where our money goes...if you dont like options there is something wrong.
But then again it seems as if NV brought something different to the table (it isnt the same as the old school SLI
) and now everyonei s against it? Im willing to bet pretty hard here if ATi woulda came out with a link of some sort first...everyone would be bowing down to them....sad really.This just gives us all as consumers more options as to where our money goes...if you dont like options there is something wrong.
And some of the guys that are now falling all over themselves over it would be trashing it instead.
Fan boys will be fan boys.
This was true in an era when cutting edge technology cost ~$300 to get into, so for ~$600 an SLI setup could be had. Today the cards have been jacked to ~$500 putting SLI at the ~$FREAKINGSTUPID price point. My dislike of this boils down to cost. Any dramatic increases in performance that are subsequently accompanied by an equivalent rise in price are a bad idea. This is especially true when the market has already readjusted itself to the single GPU cost. In case you haven't noticed prices have risen SUBSTANTIALLY in the past few years - a fact that I haven't missed.
Anyone who thinks this is a good idea is either:
A.) Spending someone elses' money on these things.
or
B.) Has LOTS of expendable income to play with and simply does not care.
Either way cutting edge GPU technology already hit my cost ceiling some time ago.
Quite a few people had them. I liked mine quite a bit at the time, but was kind of glad to be rid of it. Replaced the 3 card setup (Matrox Millennium II AGP + 2 x 12 Meg Voodoo 2) for a V3 3000. Was just as fast if not a bit faster and had better IQ as well.
Yes, it is nice here. Supporting ATI from the dark days until now where they are on top, yes in market share. I guess Nvidia owners hate to admit it or something?
gaming will never require $3k + pc's as mainstream. if they do, the industry will not grow. what everyone seems to forget is 90+ % of the gamers play on budget and mid-range pc's. why do you think sims sold by the gazillions? or deer hunter?
if games require extravagant and expensive dual processor or dual vga setups, the market will shrink, not grow. this would also kill 2 of the fastest growing segments: mobile, and sff.
games will always cater to the lowest common denominator - it's about money, and that's where the money is. certainly this is part of the reason 3d api's take so long to catch up - it has to cater to the largest hardware segment to be financailly successful. unless they can bring down the cost of multiple cpu/multiple vga solutions considerably, it simply won't happen, and that's not even considering what effect making systems more complicated/cumbersome does.
there's a reason rollo could play ut2k4 acceptibly on his 5800
as for fanboys, while i agree that the negativity by some is certainly extreme, where i see the worst of it coming from is the nv camp, who wants to overexaggerate the impact this will have on overall gaming. is sli cool? certainly it is, but that doesn't guarantee it's necessity or it's success. take a look at what is happening now. both the r420 and nv40 are cpu limited, but just how many people do you see trading in their a64's and 3.0ghz + rigs for dual cpu solutions? the advantages of the extra cpu power one might gain simply does not justify it's cost (or the additional complexity) to the mass market.
while it's certainly possible sli could indeed have an impact on the market, it's more likely it will be a niche market, as it always has been. again, i see the biggest benefit of this in gfx workstations rather than gaming.
sli isn't a "bad" thing; it's rather cool, and it's nice to see some innovation. kudos to nvidia - but while this certainly opens up some options with nvidia that at this time isn't available with ati (more as an upgrade option later, rather than performance gains now), let's not ovexaggerate this into the "second coming"....
Fanboys need not apply please.
Better drivers you say? Nice try. Features? Maybe but by the time games use them to any level of their potential better cards will be out. You can't SLI anything yet and for twice the price, what a deal!
Less performance? You need to look at some more benches.
Unless they release PCI express motherboards for something besides socket 939, it'll also mean a $500 CPU upgrade.
Keysplayr
Elite Member
- Jan 16, 2003
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In the voodoo 2 SLI days, 3D gaming was only starting to really get off the ground. There are a lot more hardcore gamers today then there were then. How do I know this? No proof. Just common sense. The market has obviously grown substancially over the last 5 to 6 years with an average of 2 computers per household being the norm now. I myself have 5 computers currently. At the time of SLI, I had only one.
You cant compare then and now. The computer gaming industry today is nothing like it was then. No comparison.
Oh, come now, don't sell yourself short!
I am just messing around really, I know the Nvidia card is a quality card but still think ATI will keep the market share.
you ignored all the relevant points in the previous post, so i'll make is simple for you:
show me one market study or a single reference from the past where extravagant gaming solutions (sli/dual cpu's) was or will be anything more than a niche market.
Originally posted by: VisableAssassin
Why so much hate over NVs SLI? This is a fairly awsome upgrade path for those of us down the road. I know my 939 FX-53 (ill have it here soon) well be transplanted in the first good mobo that allows dual PCI-express and by then these board will be cheap enough to buy two out right, hell if the ultra is too much then Ill go dual GT's....since it looks like the GTs may be able to do this.
But then again it seems as if NV brought something different to the table (it isnt the same as the old school SLI
This just gives us all as consumers more options as to where our money goes...if you dont like options there is something wrong.
I have no problem with SLI per se, but I'm just not seeing it as an attractive option in terms of price/performance, even if it works with 6800NUs. 1.75 times a 6800NU's performance (assuming that NVIDIA's performance estimates are realistic and pan out across the board) is not going to be worth paying a premium over a 6800U/X800XT AND having to buy what is likely to be a very expensive dual PCI-Ex16 motherboard. And while you may be able to get some scary FPS numbers out of two 6800GT or 6800U cards, the price for such a setup is far too high for all but a handful of PC enthusiasts.
It offers some marginal interest in terms of upgradability (buy a PCI-E 6800-class card now, then add in another in 6-12 months when prices are more reasonable) -- but what killed multi-card setups before was that the next-gen single-card hardware was faster and cheaper than the last-gen SLI. If NV50/R500 are as fast or faster than two 6800GT/6800Us bolted together, the whole thing looks a lot less attractive. I mean, let's look at some (admittedly made-up) numbers:
Let's say you buy a PCI-E 6800GT in 6 months for $300 (not a wholly unreasonable price, assuming NVIDIA gets their act together), along with a $200 motherboard. Then, 6 months later, you want to upgrade again, and now you can get a 6800GT for $200, since the refresh parts have come out and dropped the prices on them. Total cost: $700, and at the end of that you have 1.5-2.0 * the performance of a 6800GT (in theory).
Instead, consider buying an AGP 6800U for, say, $400. Then, you hold onto that for longer (12 months, maybe, instead of 6), and then sell it when the NV50/R500 comes out (for, say, $200) and buy a next-next-gen card for $400. Total cost: $600 (plus whatever a PCI-E motherboard for the NV50 will run you), and you have an NV50 or R500 (performance/features unknown).
If the NV50-based card is as fast or faster than a pair of 6800GTs, upgrading to that is more cost-effective. BUT, if the next-gen cards take more than 18 months to become available, or are not at least 50% faster than NV40/R420, then buying and upgrading the SLI setup looks like a better choice.
Keysplayr
Elite Member
- Jan 16, 2003
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Its not that I ignored them. I just didn't think they were worth acknowledgment. And I would like to ask you at this time that instead of me showing you market studies and references, I would ask that you show all of us what your talking about. Your always asking to be shown something for "proof?" if you will. I think its time you show us something concrete for a change.
Thsi way, when you post something you think is proof, it can then be torn apart which is a very easy thing to do for anyone. Dont ask me for proof of something that you only intend to pick apart letter by letter.
Best Regards,
Keys
Talk about expensive, the new quadro 4000 PCI-e will support SLI as well. Thats $4000 is video cards right there, now factor in dual AMD 250's, and 8 gigs of 600 DDR2. Nobody could touch the performance of that thing and could probably make high end viz servers a thing of the past. Although the new 3dlabs realizm looks cool.
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