Question Alder Lake - Official Thread

[Hulk]

With the release of Alder Lake less than a week away and the "Lakes" thread having turned into a nightmare to navigate I thought it might be a good time to start a discussion thread solely for Alder Lake.

 

[JoeRambo]

True, I'm just using the all core turbo as a baseline figure, the 5800X3D will also have a higher ST boost as well,

It's up to 4.5ghz Boost Clock in specs from AMD, so doubtful it will clock much higher, at least not like those that have 4.9ghz in specs. So 20% clock deficit everywhere versus 96mb of L3 that won't help everywhere.

 

[Zucker2k]

Look at the posts below yours. Many here think the 5800X3D may very well beat the 12900KS, not just me. I am a realist, not a blinded Intel fan.

Biased much ? Do you own both ? No. Do I ? Yes ! And the power draw ?? Everybody knows thats the 12900KS will be a power hog and hot. Its right in the techpowerup title. Best all round ? Show me a review that says that. Everything I read says mixed bag, and thats before the 5800X3D for gaming. I admit right now ADL is best for gaming, but not productivity, and that aligns with most reviews.

Best processors 2022: the best CPUs for your PC from Intel and AMD

The best processors in 2022 that will make your PC happy

www.techradar.com

The Best CPUs: Productivity and Gaming

After reviewing CPUs throughout the year and revisiting the most interesting matchups post-launch, in this buying guide we put it all together to keep your CPU shopping...

www.techspot.com

The Best CPUs for 2023

Whether you're upgrading your desktop PC or building a new one, choosing the right processor is the most crucial and complex choice you will make. Let's simplify it! Here's how to make sense of AMD's and Intel's lines, backed by dozens of our deep-dive reviews.

www.pcmag.com

Your problem is that you think desktop is about wcg, primegrid, and folding@home, etc. A 12600k is more suited to the average desktop user because of superior few thread superiority over the 5950x in the majority of desktop usage scenarios. The only scenario where a 5950x makes sense is where you need those many cores. How many desktop pc users do rendering and encoding all day? Yet, people game all day, and here, even the 12600k is the better gaming processor. You claim the 12900k is "useless" because the 5800X3D is about to dethrone it. So, you've drawn your conclusion now even though no one can buy a 5800X3D yet. Meanwhile, other users have been enjoying the 12900k and other excellent ADL chips in gaming and productivity for months now. Yet you think you're not biased?
For as far back as 6 months+ now, you've been recommending potential buyers wait for the 5xxxX3D release because it was going to be released soon, at the end of the year, and yet what happened? We're in the 2nd quarter of '22 and even the watered down version of Zen3D, the 5800X3D is nowhere in sight. You need to tone down your bias a bit, and adopt a wait and see approach like you do with Intel releases. Oh, and be a bit objective too. You seem to be on a crusade to bash everything Intel, on sight. You're the reason this thread is being derailed because you can't keep your bias to yourself. That's the only decent thing to do at this point.

PS: What's the position of the 5950x on that list? What do you think accounts for that?

 

[Heartbreaker]

It's the Pentium 4 EE again, maxed beyond reason to try to fend off a very competitive CPU

Really it's not. Alder Lake is a very good CPU. This is just a binned part for those who want to pay the most money for a slightly higher performance.

 

[igor_kavinski]

This is just a binned part for those who want to pay the most money for a slightly higher performance.

Yeah. It will pay for the KFC buckets when their engineers are working late at night. Sometimes they do 80 hour work weeks.

 

[Markfw]

Best processors 2022: the best CPUs for your PC from Intel and AMD

The best processors in 2022 that will make your PC happy

www.techradar.com

The Best CPUs: Productivity and Gaming

After reviewing CPUs throughout the year and revisiting the most interesting matchups post-launch, in this buying guide we put it all together to keep your CPU shopping...

www.techspot.com

The Best CPUs for 2023

Whether you're upgrading your desktop PC or building a new one, choosing the right processor is the most crucial and complex choice you will make. Let's simplify it! Here's how to make sense of AMD's and Intel's lines, backed by dozens of our deep-dive reviews.

www.pcmag.com

Your problem is that you think desktop is about wcg, primegrid, and folding@home, etc. A 12600k is more suited to the average desktop user because of superior few thread superiority over the 5950x in the majority of desktop usage scenarios. The only scenario where a 5950x makes sense is where you need those many cores. How many desktop pc users do rendering and encoding all day? Yet, people game all day, and here, even the 12600k is the better gaming processor. You claim the 12900k is "useless" because the 5800X3D is about to dethrone it. So, you've drawn your conclusion now even though no one can buy a 5800X3D yet. Meanwhile, other users have been enjoying the 12900k and other excellent ADL chips in gaming and productivity for months now. Yet you think you're not biased?
For as far back as 6 months+ now, you've been recommending potential buyers wait for the 5xxxX3D release because it was going to be released soon, at the end of the year, and yet what happened? We're in the 2nd quarter of '22 and even the watered down version of Zen3D, the 5800X3D is nowhere in sight. You need to tone down your bias a bit, and adopt a wait and see approach like you do with Intel releases. Oh, and be a bit objective too. You seem to be on a crusade to bash everything Intel, on sight. You're the reason this thread is being derailed because you can't keep your bias to yourself. That's the only decent thing to do at this point.

PS: What's the position of the 5950x on that list? What do you think accounts for that?

First, I mentioned nothing about DC. Second, I never said anything about the 12600k, but at the moment, it is good for gaming and average desktop use. Quit twisting my words.

Next, in your 3 reviews, the 5900x is there in all 3 and the 5950x is there once or twice. And the one mention that you will need a beefy cpu cooler for the 12900k. I have said all of this.

And last, I am not the one derailing, I was talking about the 12900ks being hot power hungry, expensive and ridiculous. I did mention (as others did ) that it was brought out to try and deal with the April 20th release of the 5800X3D. You can't buy either one right now, so its all speculation.

Edit: the "Best value productivity" CPU was the 5950x in the techspot review.

 

[Exist50]

First, I mentioned nothing about DC. Second, I never said anything about the 12600k, but at the moment, it is good for gaming and average desktop use. Quit twisting my words.

Next, in your 3 reviews, the 5900x is there in all 3 and the 5950x is there once or twice. And the one mention that you will need a beefy cpu cooler for the 12900k. I have said all of this.

And last, I am not the one derailing, I was talking about the 12900ks being hot power hungry, expensive and ridiculous. I did mention (as others did ) that it was brought out to try and deal with the April 20th release of the 5800X3D. You can't buy either one right now, so its all speculation.

Edit: the "Best value productivity" CPU was the 5950x in the techspot review.

You said, and I quote:

The 5950x wins in almost everything except gaming at 142 watts.

And yet back in reality, gaming is far from the only thing that cares about single thread performance.

You've repeatedly demonstrated that your only real metric for both performance and power consumption is HPC compute benchmarks, and take every opportunity to talk about how much better you believe the 5950x to be. You even talked about how much lower power it is for gaming despite that being objectively false.

 

[igor_kavinski]

You even talked about how much lower power it is for gaming despite that being objectively false.

Eco mode with HT off, maybe. Wonder if Markfw will run Cyberpunk 2077 to find out

 

[Justinus]

You said, and I quote:


And yet back in reality, gaming is far from the only thing that cares about single thread performance.

You've repeatedly demonstrated that your only real metric for both performance and power consumption is HPC compute benchmarks, and take every opportunity to talk about how much better you believe the 5950x to be. You even talked about how much lower power it is for gaming despite that being objectively false.

Maybe you should improve your reading comprehension. Not only does he state "almost everything" not "absolutely everything" but also he qualifies it with "at 142 watts".

Quit strawmanning for intel.

 

[Zucker2k]

Maybe you should improve your reading comprehension. Not only does he state "almost everything" not "absolutely everything" but also he qualifies it with "at 142 watts".

Quit strawmanning for intel.

And all that is false. All the things that are not multithreaded don't consume more than 142 watts on ADL. And why 142 watts? Don't you see what he's doing?

 

[Markfw]

And all that is false. All the things that are not multithreaded don't consume more than 142 watts on ADL. And why 142 watts? Don't you see what he's doing?

To be clear, I was talking about benchmarks, that at full power in benchmarks (multi-threaded usually) the 5950x only does 142 watts, and wins MOST of them.

By comparison, My 12700F does sometimes 300 watts with all threads going, and usually at least 200. And my criticism of the 12900k and 12900ks is mostly about high power consumption and heat. I need a big tower cooler for my 12700F.

 

[Exist50]

Not only does he state "almost everything" not "absolutely everything" but also he qualifies it with "at 142 watts".

All factors that I accounted for. Or are you seriously going to claim that "almost everything" is best represented by an embarrassingly parallel HPC benchmark?

Hell, even just looking at professional workloads, which are already much more representative than primegrid, well the numbers speak for themselves.

12th Gen Intel Core CPU Review Roundup

Intel has launched their new 12th Gen Intel Core desktop processors (code-named "Alder Lake") featuring support for DDR5, PCIe 5.0, as well as a completely new hybrid architecture using a mix of Performance and Efficient-cores. This is a lot of new technologies in one product which makes it hard...

www.pugetsystems.com

And then if we start talking about tasks with even worse threading, it's not going to be any better.

To be clear, I was talking about benchmarks, that at full power in benchmarks (multi-threaded usually) the 5950x only does 142 watts, and wins MOST of them.

You are talking about the subset of embarrassingly parallel benchmarks that seem to be your sole reference point when it comes to Alder Lake. But you bring those up not only as the expected use case (rather than acknowledge they're an unrepresentative niche workload), but even when responding to comments directly stating a different one (e.g. gaming).

 

[Justinus]

All factors that I accounted for. Or are you seriously going to claim that "almost everything" is best represented by an embarrassingly parallel HPC benchmark?

Hell, even just looking at professional workloads, which are already much more representative than primegrid, well the numbers speak for themselves.

12th Gen Intel Core CPU Review Roundup

Intel has launched their new 12th Gen Intel Core desktop processors (code-named "Alder Lake") featuring support for DDR5, PCIe 5.0, as well as a completely new hybrid architecture using a mix of Performance and Efficient-cores. This is a lot of new technologies in one product which makes it hard...

www.pugetsystems.com

And then if we start talking about tasks with even worse threading, it's not going to be any better.


You are talking about the subset of embarrassingly parallel benchmarks that seem to be your sole reference point when it comes to Alder Lake. But you bring those up not only as the expected use case (rather than acknowledge they're an unrepresentative niche workload), but even when responding to comments directly stating a different one (e.g. gaming).

I didn't realize Adobe software was the only acceptable "professional workload" benchmark on the planet. Weird.

Also there was no consideration or measurement of power consumption in that article.

 

[Exist50]

I didn't realize Adobe software was the only acceptable "professional workload" benchmark on the planet. Weird.

Also there was no consideration or measurement of power consumption in that article.

So now you've gone from "almost anything" to "there exists some test", illustrating exactly the problem I called out. Or are you going to try insisting that Adobe is an outlier, but primegrid is not?

And if you want to play that game, virtually any single core load will be faster on ADL at well under 142W. Already plenty sufficient to make my point.

 

[Hulk]

With all of the subdivisions in the Intel stack they have themselves become the "Silicon Lottery." I like the extra segmentation so there is less "hoping" for a good one. You pretty much know what the chip you buy will be able to achieve.

 

[Markfw]

All factors that I accounted for. Or are you seriously going to claim that "almost everything" is best represented by an embarrassingly parallel HPC benchmark?

Hell, even just looking at professional workloads, which are already much more representative than primegrid, well the numbers speak for themselves.

12th Gen Intel Core CPU Review Roundup

Intel has launched their new 12th Gen Intel Core desktop processors (code-named "Alder Lake") featuring support for DDR5, PCIe 5.0, as well as a completely new hybrid architecture using a mix of Performance and Efficient-cores. This is a lot of new technologies in one product which makes it hard...

www.pugetsystems.com

And then if we start talking about tasks with even worse threading, it's not going to be any better.


You are talking about the subset of embarrassingly parallel benchmarks that seem to be your sole reference point when it comes to Alder Lake. But you bring those up not only as the expected use case (rather than acknowledge they're an unrepresentative niche workload), but even when responding to comments directly stating a different one (e.g. gaming).

Let me summarize, instead of you putting words in my mouth. ADL (my 12700F specifically) has stronger P-cores than the 5900x/5950x, so the more the workload is single-core dependent OR not fully utilizing all the cores, ADL shines and beats AMD. But the more loaded a machine is, the weaker ADL is, and in ALL cases on the same workloads, uses more power.

And again, in gaming, ADL shines as the champ, however AMD is not that far behind.

Edit: and this makes perfect sense, because even the best ADL chips only have 8 strong cores, so once the workload gets farther away from 8C/16T, the more it falls behind.

 

[Exist50]

Let me summarize, instead of you putting words in my mouth. ADL (my 12700F specifically) has stronger P-cores than the 5900x/5950x, so the more the workload is single-core dependent OR not fully utilizing all the cores, ADL shines and beats AMD. But the more loaded a machine is, the weaker ADL is, and in ALL cases on the same workloads, uses more power.

And again, in gaming, ADL shines as the champ, however AMD is not that far behind.

That's a very different argument than the one you've been spending most of your time on. If you'd left it at that, we wouldn't be having this discussion at all.

 

[Justinus]

So now you've gone from "almost anything" to "there exists some test", illustrating exactly the problem I called out. Or are you going to try insisting that Adobe is an outlier, but primegrid is not?

And if you want to play that game, virtually any single core load will be faster on ADL at well under 142W. Already plenty sufficient to make my point.

You're strawmanning again. I never made any claim, I attempted to clarify you were already strawmanning someone else.

Good luck with your future endeavors.

 

[Exist50]

You're strawmanning again. I never made any claim

I quoted the claim verbatim. I don't think you know what strawmanning is if you take issue with me responding to a claim exactly as presented.

 

[Markfw]

That's a very different argument than the one you've been spending most of your time on. If you'd left it at that, we wouldn't be having this discussion at all.

Its the way you interpret my posts. I have to be very clear sometimes not to be misquoted.

 

[Justinus]

I quoted the claim verbatim. I don't think you know what strawmanning is if you take issue with me responding to a claim exactly as presented.

You literally ignored important parts of the claim to make your counterpoint. You are the one who does not know what strawmanning is.

 

[Exist50]

Its the way you interpret my posts. I have to be very clear sometimes not to be misquoted.

Then do explain what I've misinterpreted. I've been quoting your own words, in context, this entire time. Or are we just supposed to know that all of your rants are only about primegrid, even if you're explicitly giving "advice" to someone talking about e.g. gaming?

You literally ignored important parts of the claim to make your counterpoint.

So please tell me what single core load Alder Lake consumes >142W in? And if you bothered to click my link, you'd see even lower power chips doing similarly well.

 

[Justinus]

So please tell me what single core load Alder Lake consumes >142W in? And if you bothered to click my link, you'd see even lower power chips doing similarly well.

Feel free to quote me on what you're, once again, strawmanning in this thread.

Hint: I never said that.

 

[Exist50]

Feel free to quote me on what you're, once again, strawmanning in this thread.

Hint: I never said that.

In your own words:

Maybe you should improve your reading comprehension. Not only does he state "almost everything" not "absolutely everything" but also he qualifies it with "at 142 watts".

So, unless you're going to acknowledge that this claim is outright wrong, my interpretation holds just fine. Going on and on about "strawmanning" doesn't make that any less so.

 

[Justinus]

In your own words:

So, unless you're going to acknowledge that this claim is outright wrong, my interpretation holds just fine. Going on and on about "strawmanning" doesn't make that any less so.

I can see you're unwilling to comprehend argument or even basic facts about what is being said unless it is in your favor. Goodbye.

 

[LikeLinus]

I re-iterate what you wrote:
'"never again will they be in the windshield" .

This kind of stupidity in a corporate environment is what makes companies go bankrupt. Not saying it will happen anytime soon, but they need to face reality, and be honest with their clients. And try harder. A little modesty might actually work. Well, that and a little better hardware.

"And last, I am not the one derailing, I was talking about the 12900ks being hot power hungry, expensive and ridiculous. "

As stated in the past. YOU only care about power and heat because, as you gloat, have 1000 cores!. You think of yourself as a datacenter of DC. A glowing/shining light of the DC community. You never consider the actual power consumption, heat and things that you are sitting here advocating against? Is that because it fits your agenda? Why are you telling everyone to buy AMD, yet you are are spending and heating communities vastly beyond what an Intel does?

It's like Steve Balmer saying "don't spend money because it could go to the homeless". but you have no regards for the power, heat and money you are spending? It's completely hypocritical and complete BS.

So, should we all have 1000 cores or are you OK with us having 12 Intel cores? I'm going to bet you say we can only have AMD cores? :LOL