Question Alder Lake - Official Thread

[Hulk]

With the release of Alder Lake less than a week away and the "Lakes" thread having turned into a nightmare to navigate I thought it might be a good time to start a discussion thread solely for Alder Lake.

 

[epsilon84]

One thing I think often is forgotten when talking value, is the total cost of motherboard, memory and CPU. It's very seldom you buy a CPU without buying the rest.

Agreed, though at least in the case of ADL people have the choice to re-use their DDR4 if they so wish, with minimal performance penalties vs DDR5 (in most use cases, there are exceptions )

LGA 1700 as a whole is not a cheap platform, as the motherboards tend to be more expensive for the same feature set.

That being said, current Intel CPU pricing is generally very competitive, at any price point below the 12900K, which suffers the flagship tax.

Chips like the 12100/12400/12600K/12700 all represent good value for the relative performance and price tier.

 

[Markfw]

Agreed, though at least in the case of ADL people have the choice to re-use their DDR4 if they so wish, with minimal performance penalties vs DDR5 (in most use cases, there are exceptions )

LGA 1700 as a whole is not a cheap platform, as the motherboards tend to be more expensive for the same feature set.

That being said, current Intel CPU pricing is generally very competitive, at any price point below the 12900K, which suffers the flagship tax.

Chips like the 12100/12400/12600K/12700 all represent good value for the relative performance and price tier.

And I agree with you. Hence some of the new coming releases. Thats why I got a 12700K to see how good they really are.

 

[Dave3000]

Or simply go for a 5800X3D in a month, and save his entire platform.

The main reason why I want to switch to a new platform is not for performance, but for compatibility, and I think I'm having a compatibility issue with my iPhone 12 through USB on my Asus B550-F (Wi-Fi) motherboard as it will frequently stall at loading content from my iPhone 12 through it's USB ports, and I have to resort to Wi-Fi using a special 3rd party app on my iPhone to transfer photos to my PC from my iPhone. I tried different brand cable, another OS, and the latest BIOS but that did not solve this USB issue between my PC and iPhone 12. Does this possibly relate to the mentioned USB issues of some B550 an x570 motherboards from last year? It's the only USB device that I'm having issues with communications to my PC. Sure, I could just purchase a descent x570 motherboard and keep my CPU, but if I'm going to go that far, aren't I better off just switching to a Z690 platform with a 12700k? I already have the socket 1700 mounting kit for 12th gen Intel, so I could reuse my Noctua U12A and I can reuse my DDR4-3200 RAM.

 

[epsilon84]

FYI: You should seek real reviews and performance charts. There are certain people here who are going to recommend said product, no matter what. You aren't going to get an unbiased opinion, period. Just look at the benchmarks and the people who can actually test the products and know what they are talking about, then make your decision. Ultimately, most "users" don't really have the resources or testing ability to form a valid opinion. Look to the people who actually know what they are doing and conduct real test and not in just one specific area. Look for overall performance.

Oh, I do my own research.

I think deep down we all have our own biases, which I have no problem with, as long as that bias doesn't turn into misinformation. If that does, I'll call it out.

Also I agree with you that harping on about power consumption like it'll literally tear down the power grid is a bit much. Ultimately my heating / cooling and general appliances have a far greater bearing on my overall power usage than the relatively small difference in power use whether I run a 125W or 200W CPU, especially since most typical PC use cases are bursty and don't peg a CPU under 100% load for a long time.

 

[Markfw]

The main reason why I want to switch to a new platform is not for performance, but for compatibility, and I think I'm having a compatibility issue with my iPhone 12 through USB on my Asus B550-F (Wi-Fi) motherboard as it will frequently stall at loading content from my iPhone 12 through it's USB ports, and I have to resort to Wi-Fi using a special 3rd party app on my iPhone to transfer photos to my PC from my iPhone. I tried different brand cable, another OS, and the latest BIOS but that did not solve this USB issue between my PC and iPhone 12. Does this possibly relate to the mentioned USB issues of some B550 an x570 motherboards from last year? It's the only USB device that I'm having issues with communications to my PC. Sure, I could just purchase a descent x570 motherboard and keep my CPU, but if I'm going to go that far, aren't I better off just switching to a Z690 platform with a 12700k? I already have the socket 1700 mounting kit for 12th gen Intel, so I could reuse my Noctua U12A and I can reuse my DDR4-3200 RAM.

Have you tried USB 2.0 vs USB 3.0 ports ? I have and issue with both Iphone 11 and android on one port of one of my 5950x. Might be an X470 board though. Up to you. If gaming is first priority, the 12700K/F is the way to go, until the 5800X3D comes out, then who knows.. If productivity, then maybe 5950x. Competition is good ! Any of these might work for you.

 

[epsilon84]

And I agree with you. Hence some of the new coming releases. Thats why I got a 12700K to see how good they really are.

You don't seem very impressed with the 12700K though. Surprised you didn't just resell it and sidegrade back to a 5800X

Tongue in cheek aside, I actually have a 12900K on the way and will share my thoughts on it once it's up and running.

Yes, that's despite me saying it's an overpriced hot mess in the past. I was able to get one for an unbelievable price ($400) off someone who buys a bunch and then bins them, selling off the average ones. I guess I got the not so golden sample which I'm perfectly OK with. Will only be run at stock speeds with an undervolt to (hopefully) bring it under 200W

 

[Shmee]

I have a question about Alder Lake, and to a degree, the big little approach in general. That is, for best performance, is it still necessary to be on Windows 11 as opposed to Windows 10? Or are there Windows 10 updates for this now? And what about Linux?

Now I am fairly impressed with Alder Lake, it seems like Intel has made some good progress with this platform. But I think a lot of people, including myself, have no reason to upgrade to Windows 11 yet. Now an Alder Lake builder may have a reason, unless the WIndows 10 performance has been fixed.

 

[Markfw]

You don't seem very impressed with the 12700K though. Surprised you didn't just resell it and sidegrade back to a 5800X

Tongue in cheek aside, I actually have a 12900K on the way and will share my thoughts on it once it's up and running.

Yes, that's despite me saying it's an overpriced hot mess in the past. I was able to get one for an unbelievable price ($400) off someone who buys a bunch and then bins them, selling off the average ones. I guess I got the not so golden sample which I'm perfectly OK with. Will only be run at stock speeds with an undervolt to (hopefully) bring it under 200W

Its better than a 5800x or even a 5900x. USUALLY its between a 5900x and a 5950x, but cheaper (in DDR4, and without the video, the F), since eventually I will have another 3080TI in it.

But for $400, I too would get the 12900k and down watt (Is that a term) to pl1=pl2=150 or so. I only paid $313 for this, and the 4 e-cores are almost useless to me, but the 8 cores are usually faster than a 5800x would be.

@Shmee , I personally don't think the big.little approach works. I don't even see how they could make windows smart enough to decide correctly (as a programmer of 45 years).

That said, I think every person who is interested and has the money should at least try it, as the P cores, even though they can take a lot use juice to run without limits, can be fast. At this point, I am one the fence, except in my case, the 5950x is the best for me, but every use case is different. The 5800X3D could take over as gaming king. But there are cases not gaming, not pure computing, where big.little might make sense. I say don't sell your 5900x, but try a 12700F/K as a second box, and tell us what you think.

Edit @Shmee , linux I don't think is fixed, win 10 I don't think is fixed, and windows 11 is questionable, opinions all over the place. Depends on load IMO.

 

[epsilon84]

I have a question about Alder Lake, and to a degree, the big little approach in general. That is, for best performance, is it still necessary to be on Windows 11 as opposed to Windows 10? Or are there Windows 10 updates for this now? And what about Linux?

Now I am fairly impressed with Alder Lake, it seems like Intel has made some good progress with this platform. But I think a lot of people, including myself, have no reason to upgrade to Windows 11 yet. Now an Alder Lake builder may have a reason, unless the WIndows 10 performance has been fixed.

I'll be running Windows 11 for my build, and that is the general recommendation from what I've seen as it handles the hybrid core setup better than Windows 10 in terms of thread/core scheduling.

I highly doubt resources will be put into improving ADL performance on Windows 10 now that 11 is out. It's actually not that bad anyway, from what I've seen most of the time performance is comparable, but there are enough cases where the scheduler gets tripped up that Windows 11 is ultimately the better OS to go with.

 

[igor_kavinski]

The main reason why I want to switch to a new platform is not for performance, but for compatibility, and I think I'm having a compatibility issue with my iPhone 12 through USB on my Asus B550-F (Wi-Fi) motherboard as it will frequently stall at loading content from my iPhone 12 through it's USB ports, and I have to resort to Wi-Fi using a special 3rd party app on my iPhone to transfer photos to my PC from my iPhone. I tried different brand cable, another OS, and the latest BIOS but that did not solve this USB issue between my PC and iPhone 12.

Seems a bit extreme to change a whole platform just for USB. Why not just get a PCIe USB 3.2 card? It might fix the issue.

 

[Shmee]

Seems a bit extreme to change a whole platform just for USB. Why not just get a PCIe USB 3.2 card? It might fix the issue.

Actually, changing platform for USB makes sense. He should totally ditch Apple.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Yea, I dont understand the virulent bashing of products based on a person's own specific uses/personal feelings.

When you buy a product for your own personal use and it does not meet expectations, are you just going to post to the forums, "oh well I'm sure this CPU is great for someone else"? No. In this case, it does not seem that Alder Lake is all that great for DC.

 

[Zucker2k]

When you buy a product for your own personal use and it does not meet expectations, are you just going to post to the forums, "oh well I'm sure this CPU is great for someone else"? No. In this case, it does not seem that Alder Lake is all that great for DC.

Right. But who buys a cpu to disable cores (that are actually useful in multithreaded loads), activate AVX-512, and run around the forums bashing the 300w peaks of the same chip? And in the same breath denying any throttling taking place and thereby affecting results? Is that not what they call eating your cake and having it too?

In any case, botched primegrid runs aside, the 12700kf is better in almost everything you throw at it. We have already established here on these forums ADL consumes less power in gaming while churning out more fps. At the very least, it churns out more fps while consuming similar watts or better. And gaming is comparatively and by far the more a common code on desktop, at least compared to primegrid, dcg, and the like.

I feared the particular user in question would reach these unfavorable conclusions with his ADL acquisition and sadly, I'm right. I'm also glad others have latched on to his Intel bashing in every thread. I really wanted to refrain from posting anything about this conversation because I always manage to catch flaks with my comments about his shenanigans. Keeping fingers crossed.

Alder lake has worked the way it's intended, contrary to what he posts. It's not broken. It may need tweaking but it's not broken. Power consumption could be better, yes, but not when you're running primegrid with AVX-512 enabled, and then proceed to make negative peak power consumption comments when the competing chips don't have AVX-512. Other obvious lapses is comparing a 16 core chip with an 8 core chip, never mind that he bought his 12700kf for $313, effectively half the cost of the 5950x and gimps it by disabling the e-cores.
/Rant

 

[Markfw]

Right. But who buys a cpu to disable cores (that are actually useful in multithreaded loads), activate AVX-512, and run around the forums bashing the 300w peaks of the same chip? And in the same breath denying any throttling taking place and thereby affecting results? Is that not what they call eating your cake and having it too?

In any case, botched primegrid runs aside, the 12700kf is better in almost everything you throw at it. We have already established here on these forums ADL consumes less power in gaming while churning out more fps. At the very least, it churns out more fps while consuming similar watts or better. And gaming is comparatively and by far the more a common code on desktop, at least compared to primegrid, dcg, and the like.

I feared the particular user in question would reach these unfavorable conclusions with his ADL acquisition and sadly, I'm right. I'm also glad others have latched on to his Intel bashing in every thread. I really wanted to refrain from posting anything about this conversation because I always manage to catch flaks with my comments about his shenanigans. Keeping fingers crossed.

Alder lake has worked the way it's intended, contrary to what he posts. It's not broken. It may need tweaking but it's not broken. Power consumption could be better, yes, but not when you're running primegrid with AVX-512 enabled, and then proceed to make negative peak power consumption comments when the competing chips don't have AVX-512. Other obvious lapses is comparing a 16 core chip with an 8 core chip, never mind that he bought his 12700kf for $313, effectively half the cost of the 5950x and gimps it by disabling the e-cores.
/Rant

I disabled the 4 e-cores, since this application wants 16 cores(threads) for a task, and enabling then lowers the performance when it uses these. AVX-512 running was the result, not intentional, and the 300 watt was the result. It only runs for 35 seconds, and I have an aftermarket heatsink designed to handle 250 watt. Speaking of a rant, you have no clue what you are talking about most of the time. And if you read before opening your mouth, you would see that I said it beats 8 cores of a 5950x in primegrid 321 2:20 to 2:30 (h:mm). And I only said it was a good gaming chip, nothing about the gaming power usage.

The only downside is more power usage than 1/2 of a 5950x. If stupidity was required on this forum, you would qualify.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Right. But who buys a cpu to disable cores (that are actually useful in multithreaded loads), activate AVX-512, and run around the forums bashing the 300w peaks of the same chip?

Someone who runs DC applications? On all kinds of different hardware? It's a little bit on the niche side, but the criticism of the product is no less valid than someone who . . . I don't know, bought a 10980XE and discovered that it wasn't all that great for gaming.

If stupidity was required on this forum

Now now. Even if we don't like what someone is saying, or if it may be misguided, we don't need to get on that level. Granted you probably can't put him on ignore for various reasons, but if it's going to get to that point then we'd best just agree to disagree and move on.

 

[Zucker2k]

Someone who runs DC applications?

DC applications generally don't like more cores? That's certainly news in this forums. And, the 12700kf does more than excelling at gaming. It excels in a lot more other areas than it's Zen 3 competitors @$300 so let's sweep that under the carpet and talk about 300w AVX-512 consumption even though even that feature can be disabled in bios. Moreover, if Zen 3 is better than ADL in DC applications, stick to Zen 3 and spare us the constant bashing, especially if you're not going to be a fair referee in your tests or do Apple to Apple comparisons @Markfw

 

[DrMrLordX]

DC applications generally don't like more cores?

Apparently at least some of the DC apps don't play nicely with heterogenous core arrangements. Yet.

 

[Zucker2k]

Apparently at least some of the DC apps don't play nicely with heterogenous core arrangements. Yet.

Which DC workloads does @Markfw run that doesn't benefit from more cores?

The question still remains about typical desktop workloads that he refuses to discuss. Apparently, only DC apps and games are relevant nowadays.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Which DC workloads does @Markfw run that doesn't benefit from more cores?

Page 3 - Discussion - 12700k vs 5900x/3900x/5950x DC benchmarks info, and some build info.

Page 3 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

forums.anandtech.com

5950X = ~4512 ppd per thread
12700F= ~4283 ppd per thread (not that bad considering the 4 weak threads)

 

[igor_kavinski]

Moreover, if Zen 3 is better than ADL in DC applications, stick to Zen 3 and spare us the constant bashing, especially if you're not going to be a fair referee in your tests or do Apple to Apple comparisons @Markfw

You just gave me a wonderful idea! Markfw needs to get a Mac Studio and run PrimeGrid on that. It will beat everything he has in power efficiency and he will be one happy dude!

 

[Markfw]

DC applications generally don't like more cores? That's certainly news in this forums. And, the 12700kf does more than excelling at gaming. It excels in a lot more other areas than it's Zen 3 competitors @$300 so let's sweep that under the carpet and talk about 300w AVX-512 consumption even though even that feature can be disabled in bios. Moreover, if Zen 3 is better than ADL in DC applications, stick to Zen 3 and spare us the constant bashing, especially if you're not going to be a fair referee in your tests or do Apple to Apple comparisons @Markfw

First, I believe the gaming tests done by web sites, they are the experts. As far as other desktop, again, listen to website testing. As for DC, I am the ONLY one that I know of that has done any testing, and I am somewhat of an expert in that field, and since I run one, I give my feedback. As far as AVX-512, when you disable the e-cores, it turns on, and 300 watt is that it takes for 8 cores, thats fact, not conjecture (from the wall), As I said, in one case, it is faster per core, but not with e-cores enabled. The case igor showed was with them disabled, and it lost. Everybody knows that e-cores are not as fast as p-cores. For DC work, due to this, Zens3, specifically the 5950x is better.

Why is it that facts bother you so much ? Alder lake has no flaws or weak areas in your opinion ? Do you have one ?

And lastly, as I said above, its DOES win in primegrid 321 on a per core basis. But at $313 vs $580 (current pricing) you have to buy 2 of them to beat a 5950x. More exspensive, then components, then OS (if you don't run linux). Right now its loosing even on a core to core basis, but on average it is faster (2:10 for the 5950x, vs 2:22 for 12700f)

This must be taken with a grain of salt, the only way to truly know the results is at 100% completion, but for your enjoyment, how it stacks up with some others. Note the nighlighted line vs the green line. Note the 64 core EPYC, 8:42 completion estimate per task ! But it does 8 at a time. When running all 32 threads, and on windows, the 5950x is 3:44 ! 2:43 for a 3950x.

 

[coercitiv]

The question still remains about typical desktop workloads that he refuses to discuss.

Does he though?

Its better than a 5800x or even a 5900x. USUALLY its between a 5900x and a 5950x, but cheaper (in DDR4, and without the video, the F)

That said, I think every person who is interested and has the money should at least try it, as the P cores, even though they can take a lot use juice to run without limits, can be fast.

 

[Zucker2k]

Does he though?

Context is a thing, you know. Maybe read up on the series of posts leading to that reply you quoted.

 

[coercitiv]

Context is a thing, you know. Maybe read up on the series of posts leading to that reply you quoted.

Context is indeed a thing, so please do go back and read his entire post in which he is addressing @epsilon84 's remark while making comments about his needs with DC as well as gaming and general computing.

The man literally writes about the following:

• P cores are better than Zen3 in terms of performance
• ADL has good pricing (if you want value, you can find it)
• ADL is wining in gaming, may not maintain the lead after 5800X3D
• hybrid not valuable for DC right now
• hybrid may make sense for other users & other uses
• he encourages people to try the product for themselves

Seems to me like you read the posts leading to that reply and decided to skip his conclusions.

 

[Markfw]

Context is indeed a thing, so please do go back and read his entire post in which he is addressing @epsilon84 's remark while making comments about his needs with DC as well as gaming and general computing.

The man literally writes about the following:

• P cores are better than Zen3 in terms of performance
• ADL has good pricing (if you want value, you can find it)
• ADL is wining in gaming, may not maintain the lead after 5800X3D
• hybrid not valuable for DC right now
• hybrid may make sense for other users & other uses
• he encourages people to try the product for themselves

Seems to me like you read the posts leading to that reply and decided to skip his conclusions.

He wants you to start with his rant, where he accuses me of not including things that I know nothing about, and denies FACTS that he does not like. If you say anything bad about Intel, he will lash out at you like a little child.