Alabama passed a near-total abortion ban with no exceptions for rape or incest

[Atreus21]

Really? Forcing a woman to bear and raise a child that they don't want is not a form of enslavement? That's an interesting perspective.

As compared with the lifelong bondage, toil, misery and death experienced by slaves throughout history? Yes, really.

 

[ivwshane]

"The conclusion that human life begins at sperm-egg fusion is uncontested, objective, based on the universally accepted scientific method of distinguishing different cell types from each other and on ample scientific evidence (thousands of independent, peer-reviewed publications). Moreover, it is entirely independent of any specific ethical, moral, political, or religious view of human life or of human embryos. Indeed, this definition does not directly address the central ethical question surrounding the embryo: What value ought society place on human life at the earliest stages of development? A neutral examination of the evidence merely establishes the onset of a new human life at a scientifically well-defined “moment of conception,” a conclusion that unequivocally indicates that human embryos from the one-cell stage forward are indeed living individuals of the human species; i.e., human beings."

-Maureen Condic, Associate Professor of Neurobiology and Adjunct Professor of Pediatrics at the University of Utah School of Medicine, also Director of Human Embryology instruction.
[/QUOTE]

So it’s your opinion that a miscarriage should be considered involuntary manslaughter?

 

[Atreus21]

Almost as ridiculous as ignoring facts to complain about uppity womenz getting control of their bodies via a SCOTUS ruling 50 years ago. Build a bridge, get over it.

Control of their bodies means the right to kill one's own children?

 

[Atreus21]

So it’s your opinion that a miscarriage should be considered involuntary manslaughter?

No, certainly not. Natural death isn't manslaughter.

 

[ch33zw1z]

Control of their bodies means the right to kill one's own children?

Since you consider it a child, even at the earliest stages after conception, the answer is yes. SCOTUS approved. #suckitupbuttercup.

 

[ivwshane]

As compared with the lifelong bondage, toil, misery and death experienced by slaves throughout history? Yes, really.

All of that applies to a woman who is forced to have a child.

 

[abj13]

"The conclusion that human life begins at sperm-egg fusion is uncontested, objective, based on the universally accepted scientific method of distinguishing different cell types from each other and on ample scientific evidence (thousands of independent, peer-reviewed publications). Moreover, it is entirely independent of any specific ethical, moral, political, or religious view of human life or of human embryos. Indeed, this definition does not directly address the central ethical question surrounding the embryo: What value ought society place on human life at the earliest stages of development? A neutral examination of the evidence merely establishes the onset of a new human life at a scientifically well-defined “moment of conception,” a conclusion that unequivocally indicates that human embryos from the one-cell stage forward are indeed living individuals of the human species; i.e., human beings."

-Maureen Condic, Associate Professor of Neurobiology and Adjunct Professor of Pediatrics at the University of Utah School of Medicine, also Director of Human Embryology instruction.

"Thousands of peer-reviewed publications" yet no citations. Every view believes this, yet when the Supreme Court lined up experts from across the country, they found:

"Texas urges that, apart from the Fourteenth Amendment, life begins at conception and is present throughout pregnancy, and that, therefore, the State has a compelling interest in protecting that life from and after conception. We need not resolve the difficult question of when life begins. When those trained in the respective disciplines of medicine, philosophy, and theology are unable to arrive at any consensus, the judiciary, at this point in the development of man's knowledge, is not in a position to speculate as to the answer."

So please rectify for us. How can Maureen Condic make this conclusion, yet when testimony and legal briefs were lined up for the Supreme Court, such a "consensus" was not to be found?

 

[ch33zw1z]

All of that applies to a woman who is forced to have a child.

Oh but wait, some white knight family members will be along any minute to save that child and whisk it off to some utopian paradise. Aka, welcome to "the system" kiddo. Heavily underfunded by conservatives.

 

[abj13]

No, certainly not. Natural death isn't manslaughter.

Ah, so by your own definitions then, treatment of an ectopic pregnancy is manslaughter then.

 

[dank69]

Its relevant because so much of Nazi and Communist propaganda characterize normal people who they don't like in exactly such a manner.

It might be relevant if I were attempting to dehumanize the fetus but as I have already granted full personhood to the fetus for the purposes of this discussion, it is entirely irrelevant.

Because pregancies usually involve hospital stays that are expensive, not because anything is attacking her.

It is absolutely an attack in every sense of the word:

Why pregnancy is a biological war between mother and baby | Aeon Essays

A ferocious biological struggle between mother and baby belies any sentimental ideas we might have about pregnancy

aeon.co

No argument with that. But the pregnancy is not attacking her, any more than your brain attacks you when it raises your body temperature to fight an infection, leading to a possibly dangerous fever. Normal bodily functions can't be characterized as an attack.

We aren't talking about normal bodily functions. We are talking about one human living inside another human and stealing nutrients from the host.

If, as has been done before, I characterized disabled people as leeches or parasites on the resources and time of society, all with the ultimate aim of trying to get them killed, would you say that's an honest argument?

It is a valid characterization. Your goals or intentions are irrelevant to whether or not the characterization is valid.

They don't, because as I said in my first response, I don't disagree that women have that right, if they are under attack. Mischaracterizing a pregnancy as an attack doesn't lend any credibility to your argument.

Now that you know pregnancy is absolutely an attack on the mother, are you willing to reconsider her right to defend herself? Or are you going to try to hand-wave away all the ways my link explained why it is absolutely an attack?

 

[Atreus21]

I already did answer your question. Read back. Come back when youre done with your hypotheticals and have some answers for the other 500k kids that our country will have to pay for every year.

You did? I don't see where you did. I asked a yes or no question and I don't see any response to that.

 

[Vic]

As compared with the lifelong bondage, toil, misery and death experienced by slaves throughout history? Yes, really.

Given that children take a lifetime to raise, you're not requiring any different from these women. And you're the same logic used to justify enslavement throughout history, that they don't own their own bodies.

 

[dank69]

As compared with the lifelong bondage, toil, misery and death experienced by slaves throughout history? Yes, really.

Haha, so slavery is okay as long as the duration doesn't exceed 9 months?

 

[cliftonite]

As compared with the lifelong bondage, toil, misery and death experienced by slaves throughout history? Yes, really.

So 9 months is ok?

 

[Atreus21]

Ah, so by your own definitions then, treatment of an ectopic pregnancy is manslaughter then.

No. Manslaughter is generally defined as "intentional killing that is accompanied by additional circumstances that mitigate, but do not excuse, the killing."

Excising an ectopic pregnancy is excusable as (a) the mother's life is directly threatened and (b) the child's condition is irrecoverable.

 

[ch33zw1z]

You did? I don't see where you did. I asked a yes or no question and I don't see any response to that.

Maybe read the replies before replying with some dumb remark about some hypothetical you conjure up. Post #473 bruh.

 

[Atreus21]

Haha, so slavery is okay as long as the duration doesn't exceed 9 months?

Slavery is never okay.

 

[abj13]

No. Manslaughter is generally defined as "intentional killing that is accompanied by additional circumstances that mitigate, but do not excuse, the killing."

Excising an ectopic pregnancy is excusable as (a) the mother's life is directly threatened and (b) the child's condition is irrecoverable.

(a) False. Some ectopic pregnancies are asymptomatic.

(b) False. Some ectopic pregnancies result in the birth of a live infant (I am happy to cite numerous reports that you are apparently unaware of).

Please try again. >50,000 ectopic pregnancies occur each year in the US. Please rectify your statements because they are clearly incorrect.

 

[abj13]

Slavery is never okay.

Yet, you believe there is "no right to bodily autonomy." Your logic makes zero sense.

 

[Atreus21]

Maybe read the replies before replying with some dumb remark about some hypothetical you conjure up. Post #473 bruh.

Ah you're right - I never got past you saying I avoided your question.

So if you're not willing to restrict abortion even IF adequate foster care is available, why do you get so caught up on adequate care for the child after birth?

 

[ivwshane]

You did? I don't see where you did. I asked a yes or no question and I don't see any response to that.

When can I get an answer to this question:

Actually jury duty has exemptions. Would you then allow for abortion if women paid fines in order to control their own bodies?

And just in case you missed the question the first time:

What societal necessity is there that compels a woman to give up the right of their own body?

 

[ch33zw1z]

Ah you're right - I never got past you saying I avoided your question.

So if you're not willing to restrict abortion even IF adequate foster care is available, why do you get so caught up on adequate care for the child after birth?

Why do I get caught up with providing for a child? Lol, I think the question is why dont you? Besides, I want to know where you plan on getting funding for the foster care and adoption system for another 10k children per state each year.

 

[Atreus21]

(a) False. Some ectopic pregnancies are asymptomatic.

How many?

(b) False. Some ectopic pregnancies result in the birth of a live infant (I am happy to cite numerous reports that you are apparently unaware of).

Please cite them.

Can an Ectopic Pregnancy Be Saved?

An ectopic pregnancy is one in which the fertilized egg implants outside of the uterus. These pregnancies are not viable and must be terminated.

www.verywellfamily.com

"While there have been cases where an ectopic pregnancy has been brought to term, the conditions by which these occurred were extremely unusual. In fact, they are so rare that the odds of successful ectopic pregnancy are around 1 in 3 million."

Pregnancy - Sharecare

Are you pregnant or planning to become pregnant? Learn the facts, including the early signs of pregnancy, the importance of prenatal care, making healthy lifestyle changes, and more.

www.sharecare.com

"An ectopic pregnancy won't result in a live birth."

Wikipedia cites three examples over 20 years.

 

[Atreus21]

Yet, you believe there is "no right to bodily autonomy." Your logic makes zero sense.

Let me understand you then: You think any time society compels people it's tantamount to slavery?

 

[abj13]

Let me understand you then: You think any time society compels people it's tantamount to slavery?

This is about your logic. You have previous stated your belief in that there is "no right to bodily autonomy." So clearly you are the one who believes the state can compel anyone to do anything because there is no such thing as bodily autonomy.