Airmen denied reenlistment for refusing to swear an oath to God

[mnewsham]

where is religion here?

mentioning god has nothing specifically to do with religion.

you're wrong god does = religion.

in fact, "god" is more specific in that it means Monotheistic religion.

 

[OutHouse]

They aren't swearing an oath to God, they are swearing an oath to the people by swearing to protect the Constitution and follow the order of the Command in Chief.

I would think you would know that.

 

[xBiffx]

lame attempt

It figures you have nothing more to add.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Sigh.

God ≠ religion.

What does God equal if it's not religious in nature?

 

[xBiffx]

you're wrong god does = religion.

in fact, "god" is more specific in that it means Monotheistic religion.

So again, how are they equivalent when you just said its only a subset of religion? God and religion are independent and certainly aren't equivalent. Some religions don't even have God or gods as part of their faith.

 

[fskimospy]

Probably? Where is religion here? Where is the government making a law concerning the establishment of such religion?

The oath requires the enlistee to request the assistance of a deity in carrying out their oath. That's religious by any reasonable standard.

Requiring people to ask for the assistance of a supreme in order to be given a federal appointment likely violates the religious test clause.

Those should be easy questions if its unconstitutional. Again, mentioning God has nothing specifically to do with religion, especially the establishment of it.

The establishment clause prevents 1.) the government from creating a national church and 2.) exhibiting preference for one religion over another. This is well established (har) SCOTUS precedent. Forcing someone to request the assistance of a deity in order to hold an office shows preference for theism over atheism.

 

[mnewsham]

So again, how are they equivalent when you just said its only a subset of religion? God and religion are independent and certainly aren't equivalent. Some religions don't even have God or gods as part of their faith.

So you're saying since it's specifically implying the Christian god it's okay?

 

[Atomic Playboy]

So again, how are they equivalent when you just said its only a subset of religion? God and religion are independent and certainly aren't equivalent. Some religions don't even have God or gods as part of their faith.

True, but can you find a single definition of God that doesn't reference religion or faith? God is a strictly religious concept.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Two separate changes. The change to the oath of enlistment happened in 1962 or whatever, this guy was just recently denied.

For this to happen it seems you not only need a particularly obstinate enlistee but a particularly obstinate enlistment officer. This is particularly odd considering at least in the Navy (and I wouldn't be surprised in other branches), re-enlistees are allowed to choose the officer that will administer their enlistment oath.

Technically of course you need to say the whole oath or it doesn't count but I wouldn't be surprised if up until this point if one person or the other had an objection reasonableness won out and it was ignored.

The first is as you say, a means of differentiation between us and The Commies. There's a conflation of patriotism and religion the runs through history and I call our flavor "Godandamerica". Even those who weren't religious supported the idea that we could be and that made us different than the USSR. That got mixed in with politics and the entire oath is as it is.

My complaint is twofold. I firmly believe that no one should be compelled to say the last part of the Oath and I've firmly argued that point. Whatever changed to make it mandatory IMO is just plain wrong. Edit-MOS posted the change date. That's my problem, the requirement.

The other part is with those who go beyond that and through some apparently mystical means have determined why it happened and extended some very nasty tendencies of some to an entire group. That is the basis for racism and bigotry and isn't enlightened thinking any more than "The White Man's Burden" was.

Anyway, I've things to do and this is a waste of time here. Later!

 

[soulcougher73]

They aren't swearing an oath to God, they are swearing an oath to the people by swearing to protect the Constitution and follow the order of the Command in Chief.

I would think you would know that.

Cool then lets take God out since it has nothing to do with him or religion. Cool?

 

[xBiffx]

True, but can you find a single definition of God that doesn't reference religion or faith? God is a strictly religious concept.

No its not. Its a spiritual concept. One can be religious absent God. Its why there are religions that don't include God.

 

[xBiffx]

So you're saying since it's specifically implying the Christian god it's okay?

Your bigotry is getting the best of you. No I didn't say that at all.

 

[HumblePie]

No its not. Its a spiritual concept. One can be religious absent God. Its why there are religions that don't include God.

God is a subset of religion. Not all religions have a "God" but all "God(s)" are part to a religion. You really need to learn math.

 

[soulcougher73]

God is a subset of religion. Not all religions have a "God" but all "God(s)" are part to a religion. You really need to learn math.

Thinking isn't his strongest asset.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

No its not. Its a spiritual concept. One can be religious absent God. Its why there are religions that don't include God.

But one cannot reference God absent religion. There is no secular God. If you are discussing the concept of God, you are inherently discussing a religious concept. The issue is that the oath contains reference to a concept that does not exist outside religion. There is no justification for requiring the language "so help me God" to appear in the oath nor any justification for making that language mandatory; these people aren't defending God, they're defending America and the Constitution.

 

[HumblePie]

That and language etymology.

Religion as a root word comes from religio. The definition of which is means the bond between men and gods. It has other close roots that could have been first before the latin word in french and old english, that mean the exact same thing.

Either way, the moment you use the phrase God, you are making a religious reference.

 

[xBiffx]

But one cannot reference God absent religion.

God is a subset of religion. Not all religions have a "God" but all "God(s)" are part to a religion. You really need to learn math.

Not true at all. I can believe in God and not subscribe to any religion. I could know nothing about the concept of religion or the existence of any and still believe in God.

 

[HumblePie]

Not true at all. I can believe in God and not subscribe to any religion. I could know nothing about the concept of religion or the existence of any and still believe in God.

The moment you believe in a god, you have formed your own religion. Doesn't matter if it is a religion of one. A religion is not defined by being recognized by others. All that matters is you believe in a paranormal being that you form a "bond" with and you are now defining a religion.

It is no different than the early pagan religions of various folk that saw tree spirits, wind spirits, rain spirits, mud spirits, or whatever and tried to form "bonds" with them. The moment you subscribe an Oath to a paranormal being you are forming a religion by the very definition of the word.

It really doesn't matter that you may try to redefine the word, but the rest of us use a common dictionary. That is how the word religion is defined and applied. If you want to start calling a rock a "zugzug" or whatever feel free to do so. The rest of us will ridicule you for trying to state that as proper current English though.

 

[xBiffx]

The moment you believe in a god, you have formed your own religion. Doesn't matter if it is a religion of one. A religion is not defined by being recognized by others. All that matters is you believe in a paranormal being that you form a "bond" with and you are now defining a religion.

It is no different than the early pagan religions of various folk that saw tree spirits, wind spirits, rain spirits, mud spirits, or whatever and tried to form "bonds" with them. The moment you subscribe an Oath to a paranormal being you are forming a religion by the very definition of the word.

It really doesn't matter that you may try to redefine the word, but the rest of us use a common dictionary. That is how the word religion is defined and applied. If you want to start calling a rock a "zugzug" or whatever feel free to do so. The rest of us will ridicule you for trying to state that as proper current English though.

Religion is man's creation. If I believe in God, you can give it an artificial label but that's all it is, a label. Now saying someone is Catholic or Muslim or Buddhist is more than just a label. It describes an entire belief system. They believe in said religion, which part of it may be God or may not be God. Believing in God is a spiritual notion. Much like believing in the supernatural which isn't a religion by itself. Religions are more than that.

So if I believe in the existence of ghosts, does that make me religious? What about unicorns?

 

[zinfamous]

Making the statement of "so help me God" absolutely implies that you believe in God. You are asking to be able to do something with God's help. If you don't believe in God, making that statement is hypocritical.

- Merg

exactly. every (male) should swear on their dongs, anyway.

I am 100% sure that the health of their dong is of more immediate concern to any of them--even the believers--than are the cynical opinions of mystical sky magicians.

 

[Exophase]

Religion is man's creation. If I believe in God, you can give it an artificial label but that's all it is, a label. Now saying someone is Catholic or Muslim or Buddhist is more than just a label. It describes an entire belief system. Believing in God is a spiritual notion. Much like believing in the supernatural which isn't a religion by itself. Religions are more than that.

This is like saying that making an oath to Jesus Christ is not a religious statement because you don't have to subscribe to any particular religion to stand by this oath, and multiple denominations and full on religions hold him in at least some relevant regard.

Seriously, "God" is a lot more specific than you think it is. It's a concept of monotheism that's hardly universal, it's hardly mere spirituality which itself is far from universal anyway. I don't know what exactly makes you think religion is more man's creation than the concept of God in this context is.

 

[xBiffx]

This is like saying that making an oath to Jesus Christ is not a religious statement because you don't have to subscribe to any particular religion to stand by this oath, and multiple denominations and full on religions hold him in at least some relevant regard.

Seriously, "God" is a lot more specific than you think it is. It's a concept of monotheism that's hardly universal, it's hardly mere spirituality which itself is far from universal anyway. I don't know what exactly makes you think religion is more man's creation than the concept of God in this context is.

Making an oath to Jesus Christ wouldn't necessarily be religious. If you only acknowledge that he was a man and not the son of God then there is no need to include God or belief in a certain religion. But no one was taking an oath to God here either so I'm not sure how the analogy applies.

 

[HumblePie]

Religion is man's creation. If I believe in God, you can give it an artificial label but that's all it is, a label. Now saying someone is Catholic or Muslim or Buddhist is more than just a label. It describes an entire belief system. Believing in God is a spiritual notion. Much like believing in the supernatural which isn't a religion by itself. Religions are more than that.

So if I believe in the existence of ghosts, does that make me religious? What about unicorns?

Stop, just stop. I said that religion is the forming of a bond between a person and a paranormal entity. The belief of existence is the basic bond. So if you believe you have a spiritial unicorn protector then yes THAT IS RELIGION.

Believing in any paranormal entity from ghosts, angels, pixies, spirits, bogarts, gods, or smurfs is forming a religion. It can be a formalized thing or not. Doesn't matter. The definition of the word doesn't have to be inclusive only to an organized formal religion at all.

 

[HumblePie]

Making an oath to Jesus Christ wouldn't necessarily be religious. If you only acknowledge that he was a man and not the son of God then there is no need to include God or belief in a certain religion. But no one was taking an oath to God here either so I'm not sure how the analogy applies.

Jesus Christ is the title to a religious figure. if the oath was to someone from ancient Nazareth then it wouldn't necessarily be religious in nature. Might as well make an oath to Abe Lincoln or Henry the 8th. What difference would it make? The purpose of making such an oath is that you believe the person you are making such an oath can enforce the principles of that oath against you if you decide to break it. Making an oath to Abe Lincoln is stupid unless you think the spirit of Abe Lincoln will come from his grave to change your ways should you break your oath.

 

[The Merg]

Here's an oath of office with no mention of God.

Oath of Office

Having been duly appointed a police officer of the City of Tulsa and peace officer of the State of Oklahoma, I do solemnly swear that I will defend, enforce, and obey the Constitution and laws of the United States, the State of Oklahoma, and the Charter and Ordinances of the City of Tulsa.

That I will obey the Oath of Office

Having been duly appointed a police officer of the City of Tulsa and peace officer of the State of Oklahoma, I do solemnly swear that I will defend, enforce, and obey the Constitution and laws of the United States, the State of Oklahoma, and the Charter and Ordinances of the City of Tulsa.

That I will obey the lawful orders of my superior officers and the regulations of the Tulsa Police Department.

That I will protect the rights, lives, and property of all citizens and uphold the honor of the police profession with my life if need be.

This I solemnly swear.

You can have an oath without mentioning God.

- Merg