Airmen denied reenlistment for refusing to swear an oath to God

[SlowSpyder]

How does asking for help from a supreme being you believe is non-existent affirm the existence of said supreme being?

Sounds to me like he is just a butt-hurt atheist.

I'm shocked that you somehow think the atheist is the issue here. Shocked I tell you.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I have a former student in the Air Force reserves. Apparently he's looking at a situation where upon graduation, there may not be enough jobs for all of them; he may have to do Reserves first, before his active enlistment.

I wonder if the AF is simply looking for ways to downsize?

By this method? Most people really don't care and that would include atheists. So you get rid of a hundred applicants, maybe. Not an effective way to downsize I think.

 

[OutHouse]

Your analogy is way off base.

fail fail fail.

 

[OutHouse]

I have a former student in the Air Force reserves. Apparently he's looking at a situation where upon graduation, there may not be enough jobs for all of them; he may have to do Reserves first, before his active enlistment.

I wonder if the AF is simply looking for ways to downsize?

its one or the other. active, reserves or guard. if there are not enough jobs they will release him. they dont put you in the reserves while waiting for a job slot in the reserves.

he was either lying or did not understand what the situation was.

 

[glenn1]

why? Because you say so? fuck off. I am a Buddhist who wants to serve in the air force who refuses to take an oath that implies belief in a god.

Are you saying I can't serve simply because I wont say the oath? When you could very VERY easily just allow me to serve by making an exclusion clause OR by removing that section entirely.

So my choices are lie, or never be able to joined the armed forces of the country I was born and raised in since birth and would defend with my life if necessary.

While I agree with you and think this law should be changed, I also think this falls into the "basically harmless to any normal person" category of generic and symbolic invocation. Think "God Bless you" or "God save the Queen" being sung as the British national anthem. Certainly if you're going to let something like this derail your chosen career I can't see you being that serious about said career. I know when I was in the military every day I either heard or said something more ridiculous than this pointless and gratuitous invocation, Congress could have made me appeal to the Easter Bunny for assistance in keeping my oath and I wouldn't have given a shit. Hell, the part of the oath about unthinkingly defending against any to-be-determined "domestic enemies" is far more troublesome than the "God keep me honest" request. If God doesn't exist it doesn't matter if I pledge an oath to him, but I know for a fact that the President can't be trusted to designate "domestic enemies" (Hello Japanese-American internment camps). The idea of being bound to support that sort of activity under the potential penalty of death for refusal is far more horrifying than a cameo "God" appearance rapidly forgotten.

 

[mnewsham]

its one or the other. active, reserves or guard. if there are not enough jobs they will release him. they dont put you in the reserves while waiting for a job slot in the reserves.

he was either lying or did not understand what the situation was.

What they do now is sign you up, then tell you to wait 6-12 months until they have room in basic training. That could be what the kid meant, the wait until he actually leaves?

 

[mnewsham]

While I agree with you and think this law should be changed, I also think this falls into the "basically harmless to any normal person" category of generic and symbolic invocation. Certainly if you're going to let something like this derail your chosen career I can't see you being that serious about said career. I know when I was in the military every day I either heard or said something more ridiculous than this pointless and gratuitous invocation, Congress could have made me appeal to the Easter Bunny for assistance in keeping my oath and I wouldn't have given a shit. Hell, the part of the oath about unthinkingly defending against any to-be-determined "domestic enemies" is far more troublesome than the "God keep me honest" request. If God doesn't exist it doesn't matter if I pledge an oath to him, but I know for a fact that the President can't be trusted to designate "domestic enemies" (Hello Japanese-American internment camps). The idea of being bound to support that sort of activity under the potential penalty of death for refusal is far more horrifying than a cameo "God" appearance rapidly forgotten.

While I recognize this personally, some people wouldn't and it's not a huge deal just to change the oath to make it more inclusive for everyone.

 

[OutHouse]

who ever it was that changed Title 10 USC 502 needs to correct their mistake.

 

[HumblePie]

All I have to say is this. The last part Article VI of the Constitution.

...but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

An Airman is an "office" of the US government under the military arm of the government. Being asked to swear to any religious deity as part of the affirmation to that office is tantamount to a religious test. What if the person was not an Atheist but a Buddhist, Wicca, Hindi, Celtic, Taoist, or some other religion that doesn't have a single supreme deity "god" as central? Why should only those that swear to a "God" be allowed to serve a government office?

Yah, the change to the AFI standards in 2013 was a flagrant unconstitutional change. Anyone defending that change is being a moron.

 

[BurnItDwn]

lol oath to imaginary nonexistent beings .. hahhahahahahaha

What a joke.

 

[HumblePie]

While I agree with you and think this law should be changed, I also think this falls into the "basically harmless to any normal person" category of generic and symbolic invocation. Think "God Bless you" or "God save the Queen" being sung as the British national anthem. Certainly if you're going to let something like this derail your chosen career I can't see you being that serious about said career. I know when I was in the military every day I either heard or said something more ridiculous than this pointless and gratuitous invocation, Congress could have made me appeal to the Easter Bunny for assistance in keeping my oath and I wouldn't have given a shit. Hell, the part of the oath about unthinkingly defending against any to-be-determined "domestic enemies" is far more troublesome than the "God keep me honest" request. If God doesn't exist it doesn't matter if I pledge an oath to him, but I know for a fact that the President can't be trusted to designate "domestic enemies" (Hello Japanese-American internment camps). The idea of being bound to support that sort of activity under the potential penalty of death for refusal is far more horrifying than a cameo "God" appearance rapidly forgotten.

If it was symbolic, then omitting it from the Oath to serve a government office shouldn't prevent the person from obtaining said office. The fact that the person in the OP is denied access to that government position because of that religious test is what is unconstitutional and needs to be fixed.

Having it as part of the Oath that could be omitted,as it was previously prior 2013, is something I would consider "basically harmless" as the individual omitting the phrase in the Oath was not penalized for the omission. Since there is now a penalty involved it is no longer basically harmless.

 

[sandorski]

Really? Which Christians did this for the purpose of forcing that part of the oath? The ones I know don't really want someone to swear an oath on a God they don't believe in. Some? Sure there has to be. So show that Christians as a group forced this change.

It didn't happen in a vacuum.

 

[trenchfoot]

As to the reasoning that one can just ignore the "So help me God" portion of the oath; so then what's to stop a person from ignoring any other part of the oath?

The argument being, either swear to the oath in its entirety, or you can pick and choose to not "swear" to anything you don't like in it.

How this oath can be used to criminalize and/or convict with punishment for betraying or violating the oath is to me the main concern.

However, like others here have mentioned, just re-institute the exception clause and make it clear that no other part of the oath applies to it. I don't have the time or the wherewithal to argue the legality or the legal consequences of allowing this exception, but it sure would be interesting to hear the Air Force's reasoning behind their removing it.

Besides, swearing an oath, as far as I can throw a logic bomb, is just some gobblety-goopy formality that a person needs to perform to gain membership for most and is clearly not the compelling reasons they volunteered to begin with. As an example, just how seriously is an 18 year old kid going to take that induction oath when, for the majority of them, that oath is forgotten the moment the ceremony is over with?

And for the truly ardent patriot whose intention is to give his whole being, his entire life, his every waking moment to the cause he is swearing to, the oath conveniently represents something to stake his purpose in life to.

 

[xBiffx]

Ohhhh, now it's not just a simple statement. It's a faith based statement.

You do realize that faith is more than just religions faith right? Also, my statement was about oaths in general.

 

[xBiffx]

fail fail fail.

So you think this is the same as forcing someone to convert to a particular religion to get a job?

I'd say the fail is all yours.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

It didn't happen in a vacuum.

Yet you have no evidence whatsoever that Christians as a group forced this change. In fact you don't know the why of any of it one way or another, but you assume the worst. Like I said in the "racist" thread, blacks want to burn loot and riot. Those buildings didn't ruin themselves in Ferguson.

 

[HumblePie]

Yet you have no evidence whatsoever that Christians as a group forced this change. In fact you don't know the why of any of it one way or another, but you assume the worst. Like I said in the "racist" thread, blacks want to burn loot and riot. Those buildings didn't ruin themselves in Ferguson.

Does he know who did it? Nope. Does it really matter? Nope. Was it more than likely some very hardcore Christian politician(s) and maybe some higher up military officers involved with the change? Yep.

 

[sandorski]

Yet you have no evidence whatsoever that Christians as a group forced this change. In fact you don't know the why of any of it one way or another, but you assume the worst. Like I said in the "racist" thread, blacks want to burn loot and riot. Those buildings didn't ruin themselves in Ferguson.

When the uproar occurs, take not who leads the charge.

 

[mnewsham]

Does he know who did it? Nope. Does it really matter? Nope. Was it more than likely some very hardcore Christian politician(s) and maybe some higher up military officers involved with the change? Yep.

Yup, air force is pretty heavily Christian in the officer ranks, and anything past Major requires you to brown nose and kiss ass anyway, and if you're openly irreligious...not likely to get that promotion. This of course continues the cycle and the boy's club stays intact.

 

[soulcougher73]

Please point out the praise required in the oath?

Also, considering that the complainer is an atheist and therefore believes God to not exist.

Perhaps we should change it to something like. So help me "Magic Puffy Cloudy" instead of Allah. Since from the perspective of an atheist there should be no real difference between the statements:

"So help my God" and "So help me Magic Puffy Cloud".

OR we could just drop the religious bullshit all together. Fuck religion.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Does he know who did it? Nope. Does it really matter? Nope. Was it more than likely some very hardcore Christian politician(s) and maybe some higher up military officers involved with the change? Yep.

Are you sure it isn't the Jewish Cabal? Trilateral Commission? How about Communists trying to drum up support?

Maybe Al Sharpton shot Brown and blacks are to blame. Look how violent they are, burning whatever they please, and the higher ups in government like Holder and Obama are involved in it. Yep.

You are saying what you want to be true and even if it happens to be so the extension of any act by a subset to the general is bigotry. It's just a different targets.

Now you have made a statement. Show probable cause.

 

[soulcougher73]

Your analogy is way off base. No one is asking anyone to convert. They are asked to make a simple statement. Anyone not believing in God should have no issue with said statement because its meaningless to them. They only take issue because they are whiny bitches.

Secondly, its volunteer, you do it, or you don't. No one is forcing anything except the volunteer. There's a whole lot more degrading shit in the military than this simple statement. No one is asking for that to change anytime soon.

Again, Muhammad and Allah refer to one religion. God encompasses all religion. Atheist are essentially making a statement about something they think is imaginary, so big deal.

And if the rolls were reversed and believers had to state "i do not believe in any gods at all and all people who do are lame"?

 

[fskimospy]

Are you sure it isn't the Jewish Cabal? Trilateral Commission? How about Communists trying to drum up support?

Maybe Al Sharpton shot Brown and blacks are to blame. Look how violent they are, burning whatever they please, and the higher ups in government like Holder and Obama are involved in it. Yep.

You are saying what you want to be true and even if it happens to be so the extension of any act by a subset to the general is bigotry. It's just a different targets.

Now you have made a statement. Show probable cause.

I'd have to say that considering the time period that it was changed it was most likely part of the ongoing attempts to differentiate us from the godless communists. (sort of like the pledge of allegiance)

 

[xBiffx]

And if the rolls were reversed and believers had to state "i do not believe in any gods at all and all people who do are lame"?

Bad analogy, again. No one is required to make a statement about their beliefs here. One does not have to believe in God to mention Him, nor does mentioning Him mean you believe in God. I don't think unicorns are real, but I just talked about them.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Yup, air force is pretty heavily Christian in the officer ranks, and anything past Major requires you to brown nose and kiss ass anyway, and if you're openly irreligious...not likely to get that promotion. This of course continues the cycle and the boy's club stays intact.

Egads, another bigotry thread. Do you have any, I mean ANY substantial proof that the regs were changed to prevent promotion by those who aren't Christians? Well, I suppose they must be pro-muslim because Allah is God to them so Christians and Muslims are forming a conspiracy. Good grief, time to look under the beds.