Ah, the joys of socialism.

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Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
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Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
As I've said repeatedly (you don't pay much attention, do you?), free men must pursue their own best interests within the larger confines of respecting the rights of others to do the same as much as they respect their own.

So your admitting to being a commie?
Someone needs to get this man on the "list"!
 
Feb 3, 2001
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Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Originally posted by: Steeplerot

That would be a DICTATORSHIP state-run.
People have a choice and a vote in socialism to mold it to fair values and respect.
Socialism does not = dictatorship
Heck, most western socialist goverments have more parties and more choice in voting then the united states, I dont know where you get your information from.

Socialism REQUIRES strong central authority which, guess what? Is Dictatorship. Like it or not, that's the way it is. The Western nations (keyword there: WESTERN) of Europe are not full Socialist nations but are mixed governments with strong Capitalist elements and Democracy of one shape or another as their method of determining representation in the government.

Perhaps you've heard this before, but you're clearly a fraud and a very nice DISINFORMATION junky.

Jason

The truest form of marxist socialism has NO authority at all. Just individual free will. Didn't you say you read marx? You should know that the end result of communism's goal is NO goverment but a worker controlled utopia.
(which I think is bunk but were not arguing about communism.)

LOL! Marxism doesn't result in free will! What crack pipe have you been smoking? You can say Marx results in free will only to the extent that Marx expects all individuals to voluntarily surrender their will to the "good of society", to work their asses off whether they get a reward or not and to be content with survival rather than concerned with elevating themselves.

Now I gotta go home. I'm probably gonna play some WoW tonight, so I'll yak at you clowns tomorrow :)

Adios and take care!

Jason
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
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81
And what are you doing when you go to work and do a good job? You wouldn't consider working hard every day making something or providing your best service surrendering your time and efforts to the "good of society" ?
Or is it because you HAVE to. To survive. I am not seeing the socialists as the slaves here.
I do a good job to make myself and what I do be the best for my customers (fellow americans) AND to bring more money home.
not to get my boss rich there is no pride in that but a good job and a smiling face of a customer who is happy (along with my paycheck) is my reward alone as a individual sharing my efforts.
 

drewshin

Golden Member
Dec 14, 1999
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Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Exactly that is a dictatorship, we are talking about socialism here. Please stay focused.

I am VERY focused; you, meanwhile, are ignorant. A Socialist nation is *necessarily* a dictatorship.

LOL where does this guy get his stuff from?
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
Dunno, news TV, talk radio? I can't figure it out either.
Hopefully he hits his library soon though.
 

drewshin

Golden Member
Dec 14, 1999
1,464
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I guess its what happens when you get too much of your education from WoW. A Level 50 Troll King is not a good source of history information compared to a good history book. ;)

Here's some food for thought:

Hitler saw socialism as part of a Jewish conspiracy. Many of the socialist leaders in Germany, including Kurt Eisner, Rosa Luxemburg, Ernst Toller and Eugen Levine were Jews. So also were many of the leaders of the October Revolution in Russia. This included Leon Trotsky, Gregory Zinoviev, Lev Kamenev, Dimitri Bogrov, Karl Radek, Yakov Sverdlov, Maxim Litvinov, Adolf Joffe, and Moisei Uritsky. It had not escaped Hitler's notice that Karl Marx, the prophet of socialism, had also been a Jew.

****

One change suggested by Hitler concerned adding "Socialist" to the name of the party. Hitler had always been hostile to socialist ideas, especially those that involved racial or sexual equality. However, socialism was a popular political philosophy in Germany after the First World War. This was reflected in the growth in the German Social Democrat Party (SDP), the largest political party in Germany.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
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Originally posted by: Skoorb
Link Looks like they're in direct competition with France to see which country can have the more bums on their asses! This is what happens when you have less motivation for people to go back to work and your economy relies on 51 weeks/year of vacation time :)

Spoken like someone who's never spent any real time in Europe...

And isn't Nissan owned by the French these days? ;)
 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,717
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Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Originally posted by: Stunt
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Originally posted by: Stunt
Ummm...this whole post was made to make Germany look bad...and the OP went the extra mile.
A little bit of US finger pointing and raildogg goes off the deep end...
Blind Patriotic Nationalist...how sad.
Except I'm not American.
That was directed at raildogg.
he was mad that DMA went the extra mile in bashing the US...and i said you had with germany as well :)

Yeah, extra mile bashing the US, eh? What thread have YOU been reading?

Jason
Sorry wasn't you, was SR.
Just pointing out that one guy is going the extra mile to bash US in response to another guy going the extra mile to bash Germany.
Of course raildogg being the blind patriotic nationalist he is...criticizes only the one.
 
Feb 3, 2001
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Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
That name was given to the party BEFORE hitler was even started hanging out with them.
There was nothing socialist except in name about nazi politics and they HATED the commies worse then anyone.
Calling nazis socialist is about as accurate as saying the republican party loves abortions.

No, it's really not. Socialism and Fascism are just two sides of the same coin.

Jason

Liek I said go read marx and then compare the current socialist goverments of the west (ouselves included)
You will not find any sort of thing nor the dictatorship that USSR was in the communist manifesto. Your just plain wrong and I don;t know where you are getting your information about communism/socialism
There has NEVER been a true comunist goverment in the history of the world. Only dictatorships using the name for total authoritarism and a book by marx with very unrealistic
hopes about human nature.

You misunderstand practical application of the theory. Communism/Socialism NECESSARILY are dictatorships because someone HAS to make the decisions about "The public good" and what national goals/values to pursue or not. You simply CAN'T have a big direct democracy where everyone gets together and puts in their 2 cents and comes to a conclusion of any kind, *particularly* in countries with millions, much less HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of people.

Again, Socialism/Communism seek to MANAGE economies and Social goals. They neglect the fact that large economies and societies are simply TOO COMPLEX for anyone to manage, and we've seen through history countless times that the situation ALWAYS degenerates into dictatorship and a bloodbath.

Socialism WILL NEVER WORK. Communism WILL NEVER WORK. Human beings and the societies and economies they generate are HIGHLY complex and HIGHLY localized, and there doesn't exist any man nor group of man who can effectively manage the entirety of all these complex systems that interact to create a *super* complex system.

Individual rights and individual Liberty are the only way in practical terms and the only way in MORAL terms.

Jason
 
Feb 3, 2001
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Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Liek I said go read marx and then compare the current socialist goverments of the west (ouselves included)
You will not find any sort of thing nor the dictatorship that USSR was in the communist manifesto. Your just plain wrong and I don;t know where you are getting your information about communism/socialism
There has NEVER been a true comunist goverment in the history of the world. Only dictatorships using the name for total authoritarism and a book by marx with very unrealistic
hopes about human nature.

Incidentally, Marx's trouble wasn't "unrealistic hopes about human nature", it was a complete *failure* to understand or analyze human nature to begin with. I don't see this as necessarily such a crime by him personally, because even by today's standards the study and science of human nature is still in its infancy. In his time there was nothing but *conjecture* available, and the closest anyone's really come to the truth are the ancient greeks, particularly Aristotle.

Jason
 
Feb 3, 2001
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Originally posted by: Steeplerot
How is helping your fellow man theft? What cause could be more noble then helping your neighbor instead of yourself when they need it? *lost*
A society grows strong by working together and is the reason we aren't up in the trees picking lice from each others hair and hunting for ourselves only.

I didn't say that helping your fellow man is theft. I said that stealing from one person in order to help another is theft, and it IS. If you have the means and the desire to use YOUR resources, which YOU personally OWN to help your neighbor, then I'm all for it and I commend your generosity.

What I WON'T commend or accept is the idea that it's alright to steal from people because "they can afford it" and give to others because "they need it."

It's time for Robin Hood and his false pretense at morality to die.

Jason
 

Tom

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
13,293
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i think it proably has more to do with incorporating East Germany's underperforming economy, which will have cyclical effects for a long time.

Just like WW2 still has a major cyclical impact on the USA's economy.

 
Feb 3, 2001
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Originally posted by: Stunt
I disagree with the theft aguement.
If it were theft, as a democracy, people would vote against it.
We elect governments who spend as their platform dictates.
Canadians...not me as i am a minority here, elect governments that take a margin higher than the next political party to help the fellow man.
If that is the will of my country i must accept it. Just as dems must accept the current admin. In the sense that they must live within it. Vocally criticizing is a right and should be used in any democracy.

So you're saying that if "the will of the majority" demands that you be sacrificed in the name of "Helping your fellow man", and that you should be bound to work for the benefit of others without payment, that's OK with you?

The man who unwillingly works for the benefit of others without payment is a SLAVE. I do not believe that Slavery is good or noble, not for ANY reason nor for ANY purpose whatsoever. If you CHOOSE to help others with YOUR time, YOUR labor, YOUR money, I'm behind you 100%. But you don't have the right to force others to do the same, and your argument is little more than a rationalization for robbery and a call for the VICTIMS of your desire to "help your fellow man" to submit and SANCTION your actions.

Jason
 
Feb 3, 2001
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Originally posted by: drewshin
At other times, though, they've done far more harm than good. In the 1800's Riverboat unions on the Mississippi became so entrenched that they prevented any man who wanted to be a riverboat pilot from doing so, no matter his skill or experience, unless he joined the Union and paid them a portion of his earnings. Today they are worse even than that, working hard to fetch absurd wages for UNSKILLED labor. Observe grocery checkers being paid $15-20 an HOUR.

Again, Liberty, not Socialism, is the right direction.

Jason

But who's "Liberty" are you talking about? The liberty of workers to unionize and try to get the best wages that they can get? Isn't that part of the 'market' setting prices? Are you talking about the "liberty" of grocery stores to make as much money as they want without thinking about their workers?

i assure you that if we got rid of our "socialist" vestiges like labor laws, companies like walmart would immediately start hiring orphans, kids, deaf/mutes for pieces of candy for 8 hour days. but damn socialism! LIBERTY LIBERTY LIBERTY! heh ehheh

Your argument is based on the falacy that individuals' Liberty is at odds with one another. Each person has a right to Liberty, which is to say that he has the right to his own life, to the product of his own labor and to make the choices which will lead him to his own rational happiness. He clearly does not have the right to sacrifice others to himself, and nor do others have a right to sacrifice an individual man to themselves. It makes no difference how large of a group you manage to get together; you STILL have no right to violate the rights of any other individual, no matter your NEED and no matter your desire.

MIGHT does NOT make Right.

Jason
 
Feb 3, 2001
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Originally posted by: drewshin
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Originally posted by: drewshin
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
socialist nazi germany? you need a history book enema.
national socialism is just a name. corporate fascist dictatorship was the goverment choice of the day for germany, italy and spain.
USSR was not communist except in name..get a clue about history before posting drivel like that.
Notice that almost real commie governments are still alive and somewhat-well (but in decline like our capitalist system also)
The more moderate socialist countries that combine the best of both communism and capitalism are the next big thing.

Yes, because the NAZI party wasn't the "National SOCIALIST Party", was it?

Get a book, open it, READ.

Jason

LOL Do we have to start requiring an intelligence test before allowing people in this forum?
He sees the word "Socialist" and automatically believes that the Nazi party was about Socialism. I'm surprised he didn't think it was also some weekend getaway in the Caribbean because of the word "Party". :)

One of the many reasons why Hitler gained his power was because he was seen by many to be an answer to what they saw as being rising Bolshevism and Communism in Europe in the 20s and 30s.

I'm very familiar with the history, thank you; apparently more so than yourself. Hitler's Nazi's were about the CONTROL of the individuals for the "benefit of society" very much in concert with Socialist principles. They were NOT in it for "private" benefit of the individual nor of corporations:

"I want everyone to keep the property he has acquired for himself according to the principle: benefit to the community precedes benefit to the individual. But the state should retain supervision and each property owner should consider himself appointed by the state. It is his duty not to use his property against the interests of others among his own people. This is the crucial matter. The Third Reich will always retain its right to control the owners of property."

"Let them own land or factories as much as they please. The decisive factor is that the State, through the Party, is supreme over them regardless of whether they are owners or workers."

The significant difference between Socialism proper and Fascism is merely in the direction of obedience: fascism demands obedience to the State, Socialism demands obedience to Society. Of course, who is it that represents Society? The State, of course.

Jason

it seems funny that you take the nazi philosophy word for word. if you read their 25 points, there are socialist principles in it, but if you look at history, how many of these socialist principles did they actually try to accomplish? there is no record of it, they hijacked a party and used it as a power grab to centralize power from the german states at the time to turn it into a fascist dictatorship. you say the nazis were in it for the "control of individuals for the benefit of society". i only see "control of individuals" when i read about the nazis.

In ACTION you are absolutely right; what you see is merely Control of Individuals. The PRINCIPLE that guided them to that course is the Control of Individuals for the Benefit of Society (specifically Aryan society). The reason you don't see the result=benefit of Society is that putting individuals under tight controls, "orders" as it were to "sacrifice for Society" can NEVER lead to societal benefit. Do you know what the word Sacrifice means? It means "To give up, renounce or destroy", usually in the name of some cause. Self-Sacrifice BY DEFINITION is the Renunciation or Destruction of ONESELF. Multiply that to the scale of an entire society and what do you get? A whole lot of corpses, as countless Socialist and Communist societies throughout history have shown.

Socialism survives only thanks to the grace of Capitalism. Without those who PRODUCE there is no wealth to redistribute. Remember that before wealth can be distributed/stolen/given away, it must first be CREATED.

Jason
 
Feb 3, 2001
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Originally posted by: Steeplerot

The truest form of marxist socialism has NO authority at all. Just individual free will. Didn't you say you read marx? You should know that the end result of communism's goal is NO goverment but a worker controlled utopia.
(which I think is bunk but were not arguing about communism.)

I understand the "End result" goal, and you're right, it's complete BS. As a matter of simple practicality there MUST be a structure in place to accomplish goals such as maintenance of police, fire dept., military, roads and so on. How are millions of people supposed to get together and decide *anything*, allocate resources, time, energy and whatnot to accomplish major projects without *any* form of hierarchical structure? Simply enough, they CAN'T.

Jason
 
Feb 3, 2001
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Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
whats wrong with grocery store people makign that much? bagging ungrateful peoples groceries and providing clean food is not a important part of society to you?
BTW labor union were not mainstream until early 20th century. All things have examples of corruption but dissing unions is lame if your boss had his way you'd work 7 days a week..
Why not? anything less is not true free market capitalism, right?

BTW factory workers until unions came around were straight up SLAVES with 4 year old children working too in your utpian free market capitalism.
Not to mention the chinesse, irish, italians and anyone else not anglo-saxon back then.
Until we incorprated a bit of socialism in this country we were basiclly slaves to capitalists.

What's wrong is that grocery clerks aren't providing a skill that's in short supply. The clerks do NOT provide clean food; if they did we wouldn't have to wash everything when you bring it home. The "Clean" stuff is canned or frozen and has NOTHING to do with the grocery clerns.

Incidentally, if my boss had his way no, I would NOT work 7 days a week. Most people realize that a person CAN'T work every day without getting burned out, and when they get burned out they are LESS productive than they can nad should be. I work 5 days a week on a set schedule and if we need something accomplished that has to be done on the weekend I do it, but I'm paid well for my overtime. I am NOT part of a union and I never, EVER will be.

You might be correct to say that labor unions became CORRUPT in the 20th century in the United States, but they are certainly not the PRODUCT of the 20th century.

At NO TIME were Americans "Slaves to Capitalists". You obviously have no idea what a Capitalist even IS. A Capitalist is ANYONE who works for their own benefit, who has an entrepreneurial spirit that seeks th ACHIEVE in order to acquire wealth, whether that wealth be money or goods or some other form of profit. Profit can be *anything*, including the feeling of pride that one has from simply helping someone they love to accomplish something they maybe couldn't have done alone.

Your MISREPRESENTATION and DECEIT about Capitalism and Capitalists is SHAMEFUL. You are attempting to graft the definition of an IMPERIALIST onto a Capitalist, and they are NOT the same thing.

The only shameful thing here is your lack of knowledge and your obvious bias of socialism.
Your own country even. You ever get tired of bashing USA? ;)

The United States was not founded on any Socialist dream or principles in any way, shape or form. It was founded on a very simple set of principles:

Individual Rights
Economic and Social Liberty
Justice

The founders were NOT Socialists. Our introduction of Socialist principles and increase of them to unprecedented levels during FDR's administration is about as UnAmerican an event as has ever occurred.

Jason
 
Feb 3, 2001
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Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Originally posted by: Steeplerot

whats wrong with grocery store people makign that much? bagging ungrateful peoples groceries and providing clean food is not a important part of society to you?
BTW labor union were not mainstream until early 20th century. All things have examples of corruption but dissing unions is lame if your boss had his way you'd work 7 days a week..
Why not? anything less is not true free market capitalism, right?

BTW factory workers until unions came around were straight up SLAVES with 4 year old children working too in your utpian free market capitalism.
Not to mention the chinesse, irish, italians and anyone else not anglo-saxon back then.
Until we incorprated a bit of socialism in this country we were basiclly slaves to capitalists.

What's wrong is that grocery clerks aren't providing a skill that's in short supply. The clerks do NOT provide clean food; if they did we wouldn't have to wash everything when you bring it home. The "Clean" stuff is canned or frozen and has NOTHING to do with the grocery clerns.

Incidentally, if my boss had his way no, I would NOT work 7 days a week. Most people realize that a person CAN'T work every day without getting burned out, and when they get burned out they are LESS productive than they can nad should be. I work 5 days a week on a set schedule and if we need something accomplished that has to be done on the weekend I do it, but I'm paid well for my overtime. I am NOT part of a union and I never, EVER will be.

You might be correct to say that labor unions became CORRUPT in the 20th century in the United States, but they are certainly not the PRODUCT of the 20th century.

At NO TIME were Americans "Slaves to Capitalists". You obviously have no idea what a Capitalist even IS. A Capitalist is ANYONE who works for their own benefit, who has an entrepreneurial spirit that seeks th ACHIEVE in order to acquire wealth, whether that wealth be money or goods or some other form of profit. Profit can be *anything*, including the feeling of pride that one has from simply helping someone they love to accomplish something they maybe couldn't have done alone.

Your MISREPRESENTATION and DECEIT about Capitalism and Capitalists is SHAMEFUL. You are attempting to graft the definition of an IMPERIALIST onto a Capitalist, and they are NOT the same thing.

The only shameful thing here is your lack of knowledge and your obvious misinformed bias against socialism.
Something that is a big part of America your own country even. You ever get tired of bashing USA? ;)

You are misleading and mistaken. As I previously mentioned, the US was NOT founded on Socialist principles in ANY way.

Jason
 
Feb 3, 2001
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Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
As I've said repeatedly (you don't pay much attention, do you?), free men must pursue their own best interests within the larger confines of respecting the rights of others to do the same as much as they respect their own.

So your admitting to being a commie?
Someone needs to get this man on the "list"!

That's not Communism, that's Libertarianism (or if you like, Classical Liberalism a la Jefferson, Adams, Madison, etc.)

You really do misunderstand these principles in an unusual way!

Jason
 
Feb 3, 2001
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Originally posted by: Steeplerot
And what are you doing when you go to work and do a good job? You wouldn't consider working hard every day making something or providing your best service surrendering your time and efforts to the "good of society" ?
Or is it because you HAVE to. To survive. I am not seeing the socialists as the slaves here.
I do a good job to make myself and what I do be the best for my customers (fellow americans) AND to bring more money home.
not to get my boss rich there is no pride in that but a good job and a smiling face of a customer who is happy (along with my paycheck) is my reward alone as a individual sharing my efforts.

I work for many reasons. Like anyone else, obviously the main reason is for my own benefit, as a means of paying for my own living requirements. I do enjoy the work I do as well, which is a nice bonus. No one forces me to do the job I do; the agreement between myself and my employer is based on mutual consent; we BOTH benefit from our association. There is NO slave and NO master here any more than there is such a thing at your job or anyone else's job in the United States.

Again you mislead, mischaracterize and make fraudulent claims against Capitalism and Capitalists. What have yo ubeen doing, taking Conj(ect)ur(e) lessons?

Jason
 
Feb 3, 2001
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Originally posted by: drewshin
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Exactly that is a dictatorship, we are talking about socialism here. Please stay focused.

I am VERY focused; you, meanwhile, are ignorant. A Socialist nation is *necessarily* a dictatorship.

LOL where does this guy get his stuff from?

Well see, there's this little thing called "History". You should try reading about it sometime! :)

Jason
 
Feb 3, 2001
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Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Dunno, news TV, talk radio? I can't figure it out either.
Hopefully he hits his library soon though.

I'd be willing to put it in writing, singed in blood that I've read far, FAR more about the subject than you have.

Jason
 
Feb 3, 2001
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Originally posted by: drewshin
I guess its what happens when you get too much of your education from WoW. A Level 50 Troll King is not a good source of history information compared to a good history book. ;)

Here's some food for thought:

Hitler saw socialism as part of a Jewish conspiracy. Many of the socialist leaders in Germany, including Kurt Eisner, Rosa Luxemburg, Ernst Toller and Eugen Levine were Jews. So also were many of the leaders of the October Revolution in Russia. This included Leon Trotsky, Gregory Zinoviev, Lev Kamenev, Dimitri Bogrov, Karl Radek, Yakov Sverdlov, Maxim Litvinov, Adolf Joffe, and Moisei Uritsky. It had not escaped Hitler's notice that Karl Marx, the prophet of socialism, had also been a Jew.

****

One change suggested by Hitler concerned adding "Socialist" to the name of the party. Hitler had always been hostile to socialist ideas, especially those that involved racial or sexual equality. However, socialism was a popular political philosophy in Germany after the First World War. This was reflected in the growth in the German Social Democrat Party (SDP), the largest political party in Germany.


Yeah, my very first day of playing WoW and I've gotten all my info from there. WHat a dumbass statement to make.

As for the rest, your "facts" rather do strain the truth, now don't they? Again, Socialism and Fascism are two sides of the SAME coin.

Jason
 
Feb 3, 2001
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Originally posted by: Stunt
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Originally posted by: Stunt
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Originally posted by: Stunt
Ummm...this whole post was made to make Germany look bad...and the OP went the extra mile.
A little bit of US finger pointing and raildogg goes off the deep end...
Blind Patriotic Nationalist...how sad.
Except I'm not American.
That was directed at raildogg.
he was mad that DMA went the extra mile in bashing the US...and i said you had with germany as well :)

Yeah, extra mile bashing the US, eh? What thread have YOU been reading?

Jason
Sorry wasn't you, was SR.
Just pointing out that one guy is going the extra mile to bash US in response to another guy going the extra mile to bash Germany.
Of course raildogg being the blind patriotic nationalist he is...criticizes only the one.

Whew :) Yeah, blind nationalism makes just as little sense to me as blind anti-nationalism. Both sides are remarkably well soaked in crap.

Jason
 

ITJunkie

Platinum Member
Apr 17, 2003
2,512
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www.techange.com
Originally posted by: Stunt
The shock in the euro, caused by the shock in US dollar (caused by war costs, deficit, debt and lack of investor confidence) is having ramificatoins around the world. It is no wonder the g8 has publicly been telling the US to get its sh!t in order as their policies are throwing the rest of the world out of balance.

Socialism works, has for years.
Capitalism works, has for years.

Every aspect of socialism not working, you can make an equal and opposite case for capitalism not working.

good point....