Ah, the joys of socialism.

Page 6 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

totalcommand

Platinum Member
Apr 21, 2004
2,487
0
0
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Originally posted by: drewshin
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Exactly that is a dictatorship, we are talking about socialism here. Please stay focused.

I am VERY focused; you, meanwhile, are ignorant. A Socialist nation is *necessarily* a dictatorship.

LOL where does this guy get his stuff from?

Well see, there's this little thing called "History". You should try reading about it sometime! :)

Jason

Well see, there's this thing called "a brain". Maybe you should get one!

Now that I'm past the flame portion (which seems to be required for entry into this thread), maybe you want to back up those statements with facts? Keep in mind, "necessarily" means that you can logically prove it, not that it's been historically true. Nowhere in socialist theory did I see any necessity for a dictator.
 

g8wayrebel

Senior member
Nov 15, 2004
694
0
0
Originally posted by: tss4
Its worth noting that Germany is still trying to absorb the low skilled and less developed east germany. That has an affect on unemployment.



Yep, it does. It also shows that socialism/ communism doesn't work. When people get off their lazy asses and do something ,every one benefits. You keep calling for government hand outs and see which way Europe goes on the scale.
Social programs only remove all incentive to improve , develop and grow.
 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,717
2
0
Originally posted by: g8wayrebel
Originally posted by: tss4
Its worth noting that Germany is still trying to absorb the low skilled and less developed east germany. That has an affect on unemployment.



Yep, it does. It also shows that socialism/ communism doesn't work. When people get off their lazy asses and do something ,every one benefits. You keep calling for government hand outs and see which way Europe goes on the scale.
Social programs only remove all incentive to improve , develop and grow.
And sometimes, when the majority of your country gets off their asses (ie. a first world country), they choose to combine their resources to help those who cannot find work.

It all comes down to how helpful your country is. Both ways work, it all comes down to how much you want to help...there is no right or wrong.
 

g8wayrebel

Senior member
Nov 15, 2004
694
0
0
Originally posted by: Stunt
Originally posted by: g8wayrebel
Originally posted by: tss4
Its worth noting that Germany is still trying to absorb the low skilled and less developed east germany. That has an affect on unemployment.



Yep, it does. It also shows that socialism/ communism doesn't work. When people get off their lazy asses and do something ,every one benefits. You keep calling for government hand outs and see which way Europe goes on the scale.
Social programs only remove all incentive to improve , develop and grow.
And sometimes, when the majority of your country gets off their asses (ie. a first world country), they choose to combine their resources to help those who cannot find work.

It all comes down to how helpful your country is. Both ways work, it all comes down to how much you want to help...there is no right or wrong.



No one in this country who" wants "work is without it. That is the whole point. We are an appethetic, superaffluent, letigious society. Screw you , how can I get what you have. If people wanted to work , jobs are a dime a dozen. Unfortunately , it is easier and actually "pays more" to hold out your hand and let the government provide than to go to work. If that wasn't the case , the democrat party wouldn't have near the representation they do in this country.

Actually , I believe there is a wrong. If all the modern countries in the world were structured like Canada , innovation would come to a halt. Without incentive to profit from it , why would anyone do more than the next guy? Merit is a prime motivator for eveyone,whether it be for valuables ,stature ,power,or comforts doesn't matter. It is still for a return on the effort in the long run. Remove that incentive and you get stagnance...period.
 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,717
2
0
Ummm, so you are saying that all people who want work can have it?!...hrm, interesting...you do realize your unemployment rate is the number of people currently LOOKING for work...right?...well they are looking, and they don't have work, how do you explain that. And to bring it back to the topic at hand, Germany is experiencing a HIGHER unemployment rate, that means people who were working arent, are you saying they DON'T want jobs?...interesting, but WRONG.
There is no "holding out", just people affected by economic troubles (beyond their control) and a social safety net to keep them around until they can get jobs again. How generous the help or safety net is determined by the electorate.
 

g8wayrebel

Senior member
Nov 15, 2004
694
0
0
Originally posted by: Stunt
Ummm, so you are saying that all people who want work can have it?!...hrm, interesting...you do realize your unemployment rate is the number of people currently LOOKING for work...right?...well they are looking, and they don't have work, how do you explain that. And to bring it back to the topic at hand, Germany is experiencing a HIGHER unemployment rate, that means people who were working arent, are you saying they DON'T want jobs?...interesting, but WRONG.
There is no "holding out", just people affected by economic troubles (beyond their control) and a social safety net to keep them around until they can get jobs again. How generous the help or safety net is determined by the electorate.


I know several of the "unemployed" here , and looking for a job in the field of training paying no less than $7o,ooo a year to start is not my idea of looking for a job.Beside that , most of those only report having applied for the first few weeks, they are actually sitting on the couch figuring out how to extend the vacation without screwing themselves by waiting too long. Granted , they went to school for that position, but if you are hungry , plant a garden and eat fish and roots til it grows. There are jobs for those who want them. Like I said ,it "pays more" to sit and wait for what they want rather than take an interim position. We won't even go into the welfare system and the numbers that aren't even counted there.
Safety net? HAH! Life support system for entirely too many in this country. "Free money" is exactly what they call it.
I don't know about where you are , but the social programs here are terribly abused and cause great derision , division, and animosity.
 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,717
2
0
Ok, it is YOUR OPINION that the safety net in your country is too much, others feel differently, so there is a national comprimise, if you don't understand this concept, you must not a) have friends, b) have a gf, c) have a job with people, d) negotiate ever.
You have a valid opinion, but so do they, it all comes down to generousity, feel free to try to convince them, they will do the same, but in the end you must comprimise, welcome to life.
You can't criticize germany for the way they want to live, just as they cannot tell you how to live, see how that works?
 

g8wayrebel

Senior member
Nov 15, 2004
694
0
0
I don't criticize germany at all. I see people abusing the system of "generosity" for entire lifetimes in this country and resent that it is the working peoples money they get to do it. It is literally a way of life for some. That very fact is known and used for political gain in this country by the very people who push it to oppress those same people.They need to be empowered not enabled. It is unfortunate that they don't recognize they are politically oppressed , or don't care as long as they get the "free money" and don't have to do anything.

My original post was in response to someone using the former E Germany integrating into EU as an exzcuse for the current German situation. I merely pointed out that it is proof that socialism/communism doesn't work.

The examples you gave are kind of funny. All of them are wrong.
I live with my fiance , have a pretty large group of friends , work for a civil service organization and in doing so have to deal with and negotiate resolutions for the public on a regular basis.
 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,717
2
0
but social capitalism does work. Unlike what the OP likes to think.
if you can agree on that, we can leave it as that, i've stated my views, so have you.
 

g8wayrebel

Senior member
Nov 15, 2004
694
0
0
If measured and controlled properly yes it does. Social programs are a necessity of any productive society.
 
Feb 3, 2001
5,156
0
0
Originally posted by: totalcommand
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Originally posted by: drewshin
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Exactly that is a dictatorship, we are talking about socialism here. Please stay focused.

I am VERY focused; you, meanwhile, are ignorant. A Socialist nation is *necessarily* a dictatorship.

LOL where does this guy get his stuff from?

Well see, there's this little thing called "History". You should try reading about it sometime! :)

Jason

Well see, there's this thing called "a brain". Maybe you should get one!

Now that I'm past the flame portion (which seems to be required for entry into this thread), maybe you want to back up those statements with facts? Keep in mind, "necessarily" means that you can logically prove it, not that it's been historically true. Nowhere in socialist theory did I see any necessity for a dictator.

Ooooh, you am so smart! Yes you are!

Jason
 
Feb 3, 2001
5,156
0
0
Originally posted by: Stunt
Originally posted by: g8wayrebel
Originally posted by: tss4
Its worth noting that Germany is still trying to absorb the low skilled and less developed east germany. That has an affect on unemployment.



Yep, it does. It also shows that socialism/ communism doesn't work. When people get off their lazy asses and do something ,every one benefits. You keep calling for government hand outs and see which way Europe goes on the scale.
Social programs only remove all incentive to improve , develop and grow.
And sometimes, when the majority of your country gets off their asses (ie. a first world country), they choose to combine their resources to help those who cannot find work.

It all comes down to how helpful your country is. Both ways work, it all comes down to how much you want to help...there is no right or wrong.

Ah, no, there IS right and there IS wrong. People coming together by VOLUNTARY choice is right; people being FORCED together by writ of law under threat of imprisonment or death is WRONG.

Try not to draw such BS generalities, eh?

Jason
 
Feb 3, 2001
5,156
0
0
Originally posted by: g8wayrebel
Originally posted by: Stunt
Originally posted by: g8wayrebel
Originally posted by: tss4
Its worth noting that Germany is still trying to absorb the low skilled and less developed east germany. That has an affect on unemployment.



Yep, it does. It also shows that socialism/ communism doesn't work. When people get off their lazy asses and do something ,every one benefits. You keep calling for government hand outs and see which way Europe goes on the scale.
Social programs only remove all incentive to improve , develop and grow.
And sometimes, when the majority of your country gets off their asses (ie. a first world country), they choose to combine their resources to help those who cannot find work.

It all comes down to how helpful your country is. Both ways work, it all comes down to how much you want to help...there is no right or wrong.



No one in this country who" wants "work is without it. That is the whole point. We are an appethetic, superaffluent, letigious society. Screw you , how can I get what you have. If people wanted to work , jobs are a dime a dozen. Unfortunately , it is easier and actually "pays more" to hold out your hand and let the government provide than to go to work. If that wasn't the case , the democrat party wouldn't have near the representation they do in this country.

Actually , I believe there is a wrong. If all the modern countries in the world were structured like Canada , innovation would come to a halt. Without incentive to profit from it , why would anyone do more than the next guy? Merit is a prime motivator for eveyone,whether it be for valuables ,stature ,power,or comforts doesn't matter. It is still for a return on the effort in the long run. Remove that incentive and you get stagnance...period.

Hey, we still have well over 90% of all Americans employed. That's pretty damn good.

Jason
 
Feb 3, 2001
5,156
0
0
Originally posted by: Stunt
Ummm, so you are saying that all people who want work can have it?!...hrm, interesting...you do realize your unemployment rate is the number of people currently LOOKING for work...right?...well they are looking, and they don't have work, how do you explain that. And to bring it back to the topic at hand, Germany is experiencing a HIGHER unemployment rate, that means people who were working arent, are you saying they DON'T want jobs?...interesting, but WRONG.
There is no "holding out", just people affected by economic troubles (beyond their control) and a social safety net to keep them around until they can get jobs again. How generous the help or safety net is determined by the electorate.

You're trying to make it sound like they just keep looking and never, ever find work, without regard to questions like:

where are they looking?
How do they present themselves?
What is their behavior like?
Are they QUALIFIED for the jobs they apply for?

There's a lot more to it than just "Looky-looky, but me no find!"

Jason
 
Feb 3, 2001
5,156
0
0
Originally posted by: g8wayrebel
If measured and controlled properly yes it does. Social programs are a necessity of any productive society.

But to the extent where some people spend their whole lives living off the work of others who have no choice but to contribute or be thrown in jail? Do you find that acceptable?

Jason
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
What socialist country lets one spend their whole lives living off the work of others. There is no such thing! Nor would it work anyhow (barring disability)
You really need to go read about socialist countries -a lot have it better then we do nowdays.
But then america is #1 right? wrong. america is sliding into 3rd world status while other countries are
learning to cooperate to improve their lot as a whole while we sink lower into poverty the elite rich get richer the whole time with our fingers in our ears screaming to not hear reality.
The cold war is over and your big fat red herring stinks.
 

dpm

Golden Member
Apr 24, 2002
1,513
0
0
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

But to the extent where some people spend their whole lives living off the work of others who have no choice but to contribute or be thrown in jail? Do you find that acceptable?

Jason

Well now, that's how I feel about my tax money going to pay the salaries of some of my local politicians

 

nCred

Golden Member
Oct 13, 2003
1,106
107
106
Well, lets see.. The three countries with the highest tax rate in the world are Sweden, Denmark and Finland. Denmark has the second highest GDP per capita in the EU (after Luxembourg). Here you can compare the GDP growth of Sweden and Finland with Germany, which have substantially lower taxes then these two countries.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
126
Went through about 10 posts, and the only one of those who makes much sense is about the Germans having to absorb the old USSR era East Germans. For being just about 15 years, that is pretty good. Imagine the US having to absorb South America, but with SA having no resources. That would do wonders for the economy.

What it comes down to is each country has different situations, and indeed different metrics. Germany is able to take care of itself. If I were in Germany perhaps I would be having a cow and perhaps not. As far as the US goes, I happen to live here, and the goverment is at least in theory accountable to the citizens. As such when the US govt does something I dislike, I will damn well weigh in about it. The US is NOT it's govt. Far from it. They may (again in theory) represent us, but they ARE NOT us.
 

fornax

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2000
6,866
0
76
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
But to the extent where some people spend their whole lives living off the work of others who have no choice but to contribute or be thrown in jail? Do you find that acceptable?

Jason

DragonMasterAlex again shows he needs a clue. It is in the US that you will be thrown in jail if you don't pay your taxes. In many European countries non-paying of taxes is a civil (not criminal) offence and the punishment is a fine. In fact, some have refused to extradite US tax-evaders because tax evasion is not a criminal offence in their countries.
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
126
Originally posted by: fornax
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
But to the extent where some people spend their whole lives living off the work of others who have no choice but to contribute or be thrown in jail? Do you find that acceptable?

Jason
DragonMasterAlex again shows he needs a clue. It is in the US that you will be thrown in jail if you don't pay your taxes. In many European countries non-paying of taxes is a civil (not criminal) offence and the punishment is a fine. In fact, some have refused to extradite US tax-evaders because tax evasion is not a criminal offence in their countries.
Haha, what exactly is the point of fining someone who won't pay their taxes? What are they gonna do, have some immediate change of mind and start paying both? Not paying your taxes is and should be a criminal offence.
 

totalcommand

Platinum Member
Apr 21, 2004
2,487
0
0
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Originally posted by: totalcommand
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Originally posted by: drewshin
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Exactly that is a dictatorship, we are talking about socialism here. Please stay focused.

I am VERY focused; you, meanwhile, are ignorant. A Socialist nation is *necessarily* a dictatorship.

LOL where does this guy get his stuff from?

Well see, there's this little thing called "History". You should try reading about it sometime! :)

Jason

Well see, there's this thing called "a brain". Maybe you should get one!

Now that I'm past the flame portion (which seems to be required for entry into this thread), maybe you want to back up those statements with facts? Keep in mind, "necessarily" means that you can logically prove it, not that it's been historically true. Nowhere in socialist theory did I see any necessity for a dictator.

Ooooh, you am so smart! Yes you are!

Jason


Nice job answering the question. Looks like you're full of crap.

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Originally posted by: g8wayrebel
If measured and controlled properly yes it does. Social programs are a necessity of any productive society.

But to the extent where some people spend their whole lives living off the work of others who have no choice but to contribute or be thrown in jail? Do you find that acceptable?

Jason

But if most people are not spending their whole lives living off the work of others, and there is incentive to improve, I think it should be supported. The fact is that with any program *some* people will try to take advantage of it.

Social programs are absolutely needed for social mobility in society, and, since you know the most about history of all of us here, I think you know how important this idea has been in U.S. history at least. If programs like welfare successfully let people break out of the cycle of poverty, I'm all for it.
 

HombrePequeno

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2001
4,657
0
0
Originally posted by: Stunt
Originally posted by: g8wayrebel
Originally posted by: tss4
Its worth noting that Germany is still trying to absorb the low skilled and less developed east germany. That has an affect on unemployment.



Yep, it does. It also shows that socialism/ communism doesn't work. When people get off their lazy asses and do something ,every one benefits. You keep calling for government hand outs and see which way Europe goes on the scale.
Social programs only remove all incentive to improve , develop and grow.
And sometimes, when the majority of your country gets off their asses (ie. a first world country), they choose to combine their resources to help those who cannot find work.

It all comes down to how helpful your country is. Both ways work, it all comes down to how much you want to help...there is no right or wrong.

You forget that that majority is forcing the minority to pay up too. It's fine if the majority decides to help those who cannot find work as long as you use something like charity and don't coerce others into contributing as much as you do.
 
Feb 3, 2001
5,156
0
0
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
What socialist country lets one spend their whole lives living off the work of others. There is no such thing! Nor would it work anyhow (barring disability)
You really need to go read about socialist countries -a lot have it better then we do nowdays.
But then america is #1 right? wrong. america is sliding into 3rd world status while other countries are
learning to cooperate to improve their lot as a whole while we sink lower into poverty the elite rich get richer the whole time with our fingers in our ears screaming to not hear reality.
The cold war is over and your big fat red herring stinks.


Yeah, 3rd world status, eh? You're so ABSURD, rotty-boy. We're not even CLOSE to 3rd world. Have you ever BEEN to a third world country? Or even a Second world country? Go take a look at Mexico (aside from the obvious vacation spots) and tell me how nice they have it.

What an imbecile.

Jason