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Originally posted by: Gstanfor
Originally posted by: Rollo
Originally posted by: apoppin
so, i'd say nVidia is considering AGP midrange . . . not "low end afterthought" . . . they still have to cater to the 70% of users still on AGP . . .
Click to expand...

When this card comes out there will be 20, 24, 32 pipeline cards on top of it. (not to mention the 32 and 40 pipe single sli cards, or other possible variants of the 32 pipe card)

If you think having the 4th most pipelines, and at least the fourth slowest clock speeds is "midrange" and "no problem, AGP to stay", good for you.

It doesn't take a "hardware snob" to see 16 pipe cards that don't say X1800 are getting the faces ground into the dirt and the demand to "eat" issued by new games. If you want to keep playing 10X7, go nuts. Some of us want to see the modern stuff.
Click to expand...

There is no technical reason why AGP cards should be limited to 16 pipelines. AGP should be more than capable of supporting topend G71 & R480. Until graphics cards consume more bus bandwidth than AGP can supply (hasn't happened yet for single cards) AGP will continue to be viable. Instead of insulting AGP owners, help better our lot. Why should perfectly fine Athlon XP & socket 754 systems die just because intel wants (yet another) new motherboard platform?
Click to expand...

I don't disagree with anything you've said Gstanfor- I disagree with "AGP is not dead and this is somehow evidence of it".

My post seemed acerbic because I was replying to the Lord of the Emoticon.

I'd help you if I could, unfortunately the only "pull" I have is at the Wisconsin based software VAR I work for. (and that's pretty limited even!)

 
I am kinda in the boat where I would like an upgraded AGP card, my 3ghz HT P4 is fine but m y 9800Pro is ageing a bit. What I don't understand though is why people bought A64 AGP platforms last summer? It was well known by then that PCIe was coming out, and unless you are really hurting now I don't see how this 7800Gt+socket939 board is a smart idea either unless you are one of those poor people with A64s and AGP since socket AM2 is only a few months away and will kill your upgrade path again. I'm glad I got my P4 when I did, because it has and will continue to pull me through this strange transition period in hardware and come the end of the summer I can get a full system that should have a stable upgrade path for a while after.
 
I see how they (NV,ATI) want us to buy new mobo, its been happening for years (think intel). We all know it is the end of the line for AGP, but if there is still money to be made the why the hell not? It just doesnt make much marketing sence to cut out 70% of the market to me. Altho I know they want that 70% to buy new mobo's, CPU's ect. Alot more money made that way. But they need to start thinking of the cash concious people, who are willing to spend $300, but not 5 or $600. Those couple of hundred make a big difference when living paycheck to paycheck. For an example, at my old job, twice a year we would get an extra paycheck during the month. And on one of those months it would be 'possible' to upgrade a piece of reletively high quality hardware. Otherwise it's tax return money they use. Just my .023186
 
Originally posted by: Rollo
Originally posted by: apoppin
so, i'd say nVidia is considering AGP midrange . . . not "low end afterthought" . . . they still have to cater to the 70% of users still on AGP . . .
Click to expand...

When this card comes out there will be 20, 24, 32 pipeline cards on top of it. (not to mention the 32 and 40 pipe single sli cards, or other possible variants of the 32 pipe card)

If you think having the 4th most pipelines, and at least the fourth slowest clock speeds is "midrange" and "no problem, AGP to stay", good for you.

It doesn't take a "hardware snob" to see 16 pipe cards that don't say X1800 are getting the faces ground into the dirt and the demand to "eat" issued by new games. If you want to keep playing 10X7, go nuts. Some of us want to see the modern stuff.
Click to expand...
you are stating your 'elitist' [read HW SNOB] opinion as fact . . . as usual

fact is, we just don't know what will be released or if AGP will settle into the 4th fastest place or not . . . some of us just want to game . . . not show off "the latest" big bucks purchase we made.
:thumbsdown:

7800GS is a nice "start".

 
The transition to PCIE is all markteer driven. Short of SLI/Crossfire, there are *no* benefits in using PCIE over AGP at the current time. All hail our new Rambus ..excuse me, PCIE masters. The additional cost for no performance is silly. The only reason the latest batch of high end cards are PCIE only, is the marketeers would have to explain why they are using the "OLD" technology in their powerpoint slides. Whereas it's easier to make slides like, "New innovations..." "The next step in GPU/VPU techology...".

Obviously there is more money to be made, selling the motherobard chipsets along with a new card. I just seriously doubt I'm *missing* something in my games running at 1280x1024 4xAA 8xAF. I know my e-peen is like |-----|, but I can live with that. When all the portions of the PCIE board/card drops into my pricepoint, then I'll be willing to jump aboard. Only because this fool and his money, are stubbornly parted.
 
Regardless that pci-e has no speed benefits over agp, the fact remains that the video card makers simply refuse to release high end cards for agp. Those with a A64 and a agp 6800u or x850xt are just gonna have to accept that, and live with your current setup for a little longer. Lucky for you, this new generation of cards (x1800/g70) did not offer a 2x or more performance increase over previous cards, so if your 6800u or xtpe is hitting the ground face first in FEAR or COD2, chances are there's just as many people who's 7800gt is biting it pretty hard too - my friend with a 7800gt also had to run COD2 at 10x7 to get rid of the slowdowns.

For someone who's still using a 9800p or equivalent, I'd say if you can afford to "upgrade" to a 7800gs agp for ~$250, then you can certainly afford to switch to pci-e, and you should. Nv and Ati have chosen not to release agp high end cards, why should someone settle for a crippled agp 7-series and be happy because they have a shiny new card, while for a similar price you could get a much better card on pci-e? If Nv doesnt give a rat's a$$ for agp users, why should agp users give a rat's a$$ about some agp 7800 that's crippled with 16 primitive pipes and would hit the dirt just as hard as an x850xt in FEAR or even worse? Like I said before, they just threw it out there like a bone to the dogs, and if you were smart enough not to upgrade from a gf2 ultra to a gf4 mx, then you'd probably be smart enough not to upgrade from a xt pe to a 16-pipe 7800.
 
Sorry for the mispost. I meant to say,
Rollo, if you're sick of arguing then why do you come to these threads? You're drawn to them like a moth to flame. Please save us, and yourself, grief and avoid AGP threads.
 
Originally posted by: apoppin
Originally posted by: Rollo
Originally posted by: apoppin
so, i'd say nVidia is considering AGP midrange . . . not "low end afterthought" . . . they still have to cater to the 70% of users still on AGP . . .
Click to expand...

When this card comes out there will be 20, 24, 32 pipeline cards on top of it. (not to mention the 32 and 40 pipe single sli cards, or other possible variants of the 32 pipe card)

If you think having the 4th most pipelines, and at least the fourth slowest clock speeds is "midrange" and "no problem, AGP to stay", good for you.

It doesn't take a "hardware snob" to see 16 pipe cards that don't say X1800 are getting the faces ground into the dirt and the demand to "eat" issued by new games. If you want to keep playing 10X7, go nuts. Some of us want to see the modern stuff.
Click to expand...
you are stating your 'elitist' [read HW SNOB] opinion as fact . . . as usual

fact is, we just don't know what will be released or if AGP will settle into the 4th fastest place or not . . . some of us just want to game . . . not show off "the latest" big bucks purchase we made.
:thumbsdown:

7800GS is a nice "start".
Click to expand...

This coming from a potential Xfire candidate? However will you accomplish this on your AGP board? You should really try and make up your mind about this. I see you advocating AGP, and at the same time, planning to sneak away to PCI-e yourself, if what you said about upgrading to an xfire system was actually true. IMHO.

 
Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
Originally posted by: apoppin
Originally posted by: Rollo
Originally posted by: apoppin
so, i'd say nVidia is considering AGP midrange . . . not "low end afterthought" . . . they still have to cater to the 70% of users still on AGP . . .
Click to expand...

When this card comes out there will be 20, 24, 32 pipeline cards on top of it. (not to mention the 32 and 40 pipe single sli cards, or other possible variants of the 32 pipe card)

If you think having the 4th most pipelines, and at least the fourth slowest clock speeds is "midrange" and "no problem, AGP to stay", good for you.

It doesn't take a "hardware snob" to see 16 pipe cards that don't say X1800 are getting the faces ground into the dirt and the demand to "eat" issued by new games. If you want to keep playing 10X7, go nuts. Some of us want to see the modern stuff.
Click to expand...
you are stating your 'elitist' [read HW SNOB] opinion as fact . . . as usual

fact is, we just don't know what will be released or if AGP will settle into the 4th fastest place or not . . . some of us just want to game . . . not show off "the latest" big bucks purchase we made.
:thumbsdown:

7800GS is a nice "start".
Click to expand...

This coming from a potential Xfire candidate? However will you accomplish this on your AGP board? You should really try and make up your mind about this. I see you advocating AGP, and at the same time, planning to sneak away to PCI-e yourself, if what you said about upgrading to an xfire system was actually true. IMHO.
Click to expand...


LOL dude! it's not a war! Not like it's nazi's verses the world or anything. Shoosh! I don't think that anyone is claiming that AGP will last forever. The point about him 'sneeking off' to the other side (is funny for one) is what we all would do if we didn't have to upgrade EVERY DAMN THING ELSE TOO!

 
Originally posted by: TGS
I just seriously doubt I'm *missing* something in my games running at 1280x1024 4xAA 8xAF.
Click to expand...

But you are limited to that resolution since you're on an LCD. There are many who are using CRTs and have the ability to increase the resolution well beyond that.

While the fastest AGP cards out there right now can handle most any game at 1280x1024 with 4xAA and 16xAF, COD2 and FEAR have shown that it might not be possible to do that anymore with next gen games (and keep that res with those settings).

If faster AGP cards do not arrive, those AGP users with 19" LCDs (and larger) will be forced to eliminate or lower AA/AF settings in order to have next gen games become playable (depending on one's opinion of "playable"). It's hard to tell from just this announcement, but it doesn't like like this card will provide a substantial increase in performance that will ensure the LCD user playable frame rates at their native resolution with AA/AF for next generation games. But the announcement is giving those users hope that other, and more powerful, cards will follow suit.
 
Originally posted by: munky
Regardless that pci-e has no speed benefits over agp, the fact remains that the video card makers simply refuse to release high end cards for agp. Those with a A64 and a agp 6800u or x850xt are just gonna have to accept that, and live with your current setup for a little longer. Lucky for you, this new generation of cards (x1800/g70) did not offer a 2x or more performance increase over previous cards, so if your 6800u or xtpe is hitting the ground face first in FEAR or COD2, chances are there's just as many people who's 7800gt is biting it pretty hard too - my friend with a 7800gt also had to run COD2 at 10x7 to get rid of the slowdowns.
Click to expand...
A ringing endorsement to layout money, just to turn the features down anyways.

For someone who's still using a 9800p or equivalent, I'd say if you can afford to "upgrade" to a 7800gs agp for ~$250, then you can certainly afford to switch to pci-e, and you should. Nv and Ati have chosen not to release agp high end cards, why should someone settle for a crippled agp 7-series and be happy because they have a shiny new card, while for a similar price you could get a much better card on pci-e? If Nv doesnt give a rat's a$$ for agp users, why should agp users give a rat's a$$ about some agp 7800 that's crippled with 16 primitive pipes and would hit the dirt just as hard as an x850xt in FEAR or even worse? Like I said before, they just threw it out there like a bone to the dogs, and if you were smart enough not to upgrade from a gf2 ultra to a gf4 mx, then you'd probably be smart enough not to upgrade from a xt pe to a 16-pipe 7800.
Click to expand...

So when is enough, enough? If I have a $250 budget, and I want the best bang for the buck, what compelling reason would I have to spend additonal money to buy a PCIE board and get a lesser PCIE card? When people have to find the best value for their price range, sometimes (I know for some it may come as a shock) Dell 2405FPW's and SLI 512 GTX's are somehow not on the list of options. Why was the 6600gt such a popular card? It delivered good performance, for a very reasonable price. Certainly while it's not as exciting as SLI GTX's or 1800XT's, the main money makers for card companies will be the low and mid range options.

Unless you have a 6800(possibly 6600) or less, it's not much of an improvement. Though with TSAA MSAA options, you are looking at some nice IQ features, which IMO is always a good thing as long as the performance is still there.

Edit:

Originally posted by: deadseasquirrel
Originally posted by: TGS
I just seriously doubt I'm *missing* something in my games running at 1280x1024 4xAA 8xAF.
Click to expand...

But you are limited to that resolution since you're on an LCD. There are many who are using CRTs and have the ability to increase the resolution well beyond that.

While the fastest AGP cards out there right now can handle most any game at 1280x1024 with 4xAA and 16xAF, COD2 and FEAR have shown that it might not be possible to do that anymore with next gen games (and keep that res with those settings).

If faster AGP cards do not arrive, those AGP users with 19" LCDs (and larger) will be forced to eliminate or lower AA/AF settings in order to have next gen games become playable (depending on one's opinion of "playable"). It's hard to tell from just this announcement, but it doesn't like like this card will provide a substantial increase in performance that will ensure the LCD user playable frame rates at their native resolution with AA/AF for next generation games. But the announcement is giving those users hope that other, and more powerful, cards will follow suit.
Click to expand...

[Also, most "enthusiasts" using the high end setups typically use high end displays. Most popular seems to be the 2405, so it's not like LCDs are holding back high res gaming.]

I understand, but the opinions of some are coming off sounding as if those not playing at 8xAA+ 16XAF+ are looking at some atari graphics. Prior to this LCD, running a 9700pro on a CRT it was very nice to be able to change resolutions. Though for me I wanted to be able to run all my games in 10x7(or higher) at 4xAA and 8xAF. The 9700pro couldn't deliver, so I bought a 6800gt. You can use scaling and get the black bars if you wanted to keep a certain resolution, but if the games demand a better piece of equipment I'll have to fork out for what I deam "acceptable IQ". IQ and playability are *very* subjective, and when people toss out opinions as fact, it doesn't hold much weight with me. While the numbers look tempting for moving to SLI/Crossfire I don't like the price to performance ratio on the package. If a game comes that demands a card upgrade, and it's within my price point I'll jump on it.
 
When people have to find the best value for their price range, sometimes (I know for some it may come as a shock) Dell 2405FPW's and SLI 512 GTX's are somehow not on the list of options. Why was the 6600gt such a popular card? It delivered good performance, for a very reasonable price. Certainly while it's not as exciting as SLI GTX's or 1800XT's, the main money makers for card companies will be the low and mid range options.
Click to expand...

What better value 24" widescreen without at least considering including a dell 2405? If you want the fastest possible graphics solution, why would you not consider SLI 512 GTX's?

Obviously, if mid-range performance is good enough for you and something less than a 24" widescreen display is satisfactory, you wouldn't be looking at those options, seems odd that "your" choices should be "everybodies" choices.

I have both PCIe and AGP systems, a faster AGP card makes sense to me so at least I have that option. On the other hand, I wouldn't trade either of my PCIe rigs for any AGP rig.
 
Originally posted by: munky
For someone who's still using a 9800p or equivalent, I'd say if you can afford to "upgrade" to a 7800gs agp for ~$250, then you can certainly afford to switch to pci-e, and you should. Nv and Ati have chosen not to release agp high end cards, why should someone settle for a crippled agp 7-series and be happy because they have a shiny new card, while for a similar price you could get a much better card on pci-e? If Nv doesnt give a rat's a$$ for agp users, why should agp users give a rat's a$$ about some agp 7800 that's crippled with 16 primitive pipes and would hit the dirt just as hard as an x850xt in FEAR or even worse? Like I said before, they just threw it out there like a bone to the dogs, and if you were smart enough not to upgrade from a gf2 ultra to a gf4 mx, then you'd probably be smart enough not to upgrade from a xt pe to a 16-pipe 7800.
Click to expand...

Hello? I run a socket 478 system with a socket 478 P4 3.2 Ghz. There are no good motherboards that are socket 478 with Pci express. So i'd have to buy a new Vid card, motherboard, AND CPU. No, i can't afford that, and NO reason I should have to upgrade my CPU already either. So, I will hold onto my Radeon 9800 Pro a bit longer until maybe this 7800GS comes out.

 
Originally posted by: Chriz
Originally posted by: munky
For someone who's still using a 9800p or equivalent, I'd say if you can afford to "upgrade" to a 7800gs agp for ~$250, then you can certainly afford to switch to pci-e, and you should. Nv and Ati have chosen not to release agp high end cards, why should someone settle for a crippled agp 7-series and be happy because they have a shiny new card, while for a similar price you could get a much better card on pci-e? If Nv doesnt give a rat's a$$ for agp users, why should agp users give a rat's a$$ about some agp 7800 that's crippled with 16 primitive pipes and would hit the dirt just as hard as an x850xt in FEAR or even worse? Like I said before, they just threw it out there like a bone to the dogs, and if you were smart enough not to upgrade from a gf2 ultra to a gf4 mx, then you'd probably be smart enough not to upgrade from a xt pe to a 16-pipe 7800.
Click to expand...

Hello? I run a socket 478 system with a socket 478 P4 3.2 Ghz. There are no good motherboards that are socket 478 with Pci express. So i'd have to buy a new Vid card, motherboard, AND CPU. No, i can't afford that, and NO reason I should have to upgrade my CPU already either. So, I will hold onto my Radeon 9800 Pro a bit longer until maybe this 7800GS comes out.
Click to expand...


This is pretty rough on Intel users. At least AMD S754 guys can just switch to a S754 PCIE motherboard.

Intel has been an unfortunate choice for gamers for a while now. 🙁

Scratch that- I mean:

Hell yeah! Eat it to Intel!
I remember having to pay whatever they charged back when P1s and P2s were the only choice. They profiteered big time, it's good to see them getting the shaft now from gamers while we all buy AMD!
 
Originally posted by: Rollo
Originally posted by: rbV5
So then a faster AGP card is somehow "bad"......mmmmmkay:roll:
Click to expand...

Errrr, where did I say a faster AGP card is bad?

Assuming you're talking to me?
Click to expand...

I didn't quote any of your posts, so I don't know why you would make that assumption. However the idea that a faster AGP isn't worthy for someone looking for more performance for their AGP system, or that AGP in itself is "dead" is nonsense...it may be a "dead" performance upgrade patch, but it is far from "dead" and I plan on running some sort of AGP system for sometime to come.
 
Just hang on to your AGP systems until M2 becomes mainstream, mow lawns, work overtime, whatever it takes to save some money until then. Build yourself an M2, G80 rig and then we wont have treads like this again.
 
Originally posted by: Matt2
Just hang on to your AGP systems until M2 becomes mainstream, mow lawns, work overtime, whatever it takes to save some money until then. Build yourself an M2, G80 rig and then we wont have treads like this again.
Click to expand...

Yup, Socket 939 is DEAD.

 
Yes, I am definately going AMD next time. But for now, I am screwed with Intel. I probably won't be building a whole new system for another year, that's when I will go AMD.
 
Originally posted by: rbV5
When people have to find the best value for their price range, sometimes (I know for some it may come as a shock) Dell 2405FPW's and SLI 512 GTX's are somehow not on the list of options. Why was the 6600gt such a popular card? It delivered good performance, for a very reasonable price. Certainly while it's not as exciting as SLI GTX's or 1800XT's, the main money makers for card companies will be the low and mid range options.
Click to expand...

What better value 24" widescreen without at least considering including a dell 2405? If you want the fastest possible graphics solution, why would you not consider SLI 512 GTX's?

Obviously, if mid-range performance is good enough for you and something less than a 24" widescreen display is satisfactory, you wouldn't be looking at those options, seems odd that "your" choices should be "everybodies" choices.

I have both PCIe and AGP systems, a faster AGP card makes sense to me so at least I have that option. On the other hand, I wouldn't trade either of my PCIe rigs for any AGP rig.
Click to expand...

That's pretty much what I'm getting at. Cards like the 7800GS, are in a vastly different price point than GTX's, SLI or single card configurations. It's another incremental step, for those on an AGP platform. I agree, if you've made the step for a new system PCIE is the way to go as you will be purchasing the board anyways. From what I see the PCIE offers the widest range of options right now, in all price points. I don't think anyone coming from a x850xt pe, would see significant performance gains going to a 7800GS. Though for the people still on 6800 or less configurations, it might be a worthwhile upgrade that doesn't break the budgets most people have for a single piece of hardware.
 
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