Adding fuel to the class-war fire: How do we bring altruism back to corporate America

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MagnusTheBrewer

IN MEMORIAM
Jun 19, 2004
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MagnusTheBrewer:
MTB: They are based on the idea that many people succeeding in a smaller scale is preferable to a few people succeeding at the cost of the majority.

M: Preferable to value judgments based on some notion of the good.

MTB: In plain, every day language, more people being a little successful in the long run is better for the economy, life style and, over all "health" of society than a few people leveraging their influence to control that society.

M: I don't know about you but in the world I live in all I see is a few people leveraging their influence to control society and you hope to change that how, by forcing them to behave according to your notion that what you are saying is truth. It's just your truth against their truth, isn't it. If you can't morally persuade them then what else is there but force. If you use force you are just like every other mad man who has the answers to human failure.

MTB: It is not a plea for everyone to play "nice." Enlightened self interest is an actual, workable, planned approach to doing business.

M: I am sure it is, a plan like a million others. Pie in the sky.

Enlightened self interest is a wonderful thing and I think if you find an enlightened person you will find he or she already practices it but for the rest of us poor savages, we will never see it unless there becomes some need.

My dear Moonbeam, you've got to learn to argue your point a little bit better. Exactly one of the possible definitions of "principle" include reference to morality. I used principle as in "a fundamental doctrine or tenet."

It all right, I know they don't teach enlightened self interest in business school but they do teach "down sizing, off shoring and, hostile takeovers." Clearly those have worked miracles as accepted business practices.

Do you really believe that the business practices that have caused our current recession and lack of employment is preferable to following the principles of enlightened self interest? If so, that makes you part of the problem.

We have talked about the differences between individuals being able to be altruistic and corporations being for profit. The catch seems to be that corporate culture has more influence than the individuals. In fact, in many places people have adopted corporate culture as their own.

You seem to abhor people exerting their influence for what they believe is "right" but, you'd rather follow an artificial construct's policies when they lead over the edge of a cliff? Oh that's right, corporate management has no personal stake in the company because they have no personal liability.

On another note, we're having a good discussion and you haven't mentioned self hate once! Well. except for the Book of Mormon part...
 

Brigandier

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2008
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MtB wins the thread, though he should be cursed out for mentioning a taboo philosophy.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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Wrong. No regulation is required of people with internalized morality and all the regulation in the world will not stop scum from acting like scum.

Corporate behavior isn't determined by the personal morality of the CEO/Chairman. It has a whole different set of incentives, rules, requirements and rewards.

If you haven't seen it yet, you should watch the movie "The Corporation". Slow start, but it gets good.

The rules of the game determine what happens more than individual leaders. A leader who says otherwise is generally not any longer the leader.

How many pacifist generals do we have? Does that mean the pacifists are wrong and the generals are right? No. But don't look to the general for non-violence.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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Corporate behavior isn't determined by the personal morality of the CEO/Chairman. It has a whole different set of incentives, rules, requirements and rewards.

If you haven't seen it yet, you should watch the movie "The Corporation". Slow start, but it gets good.

The rules of the game determine what happens more than individual leaders. A leader who says otherwise is generally not any longer the leader.
How many pacifist generals do we have? Does that mean the pacifists are wrong and the generals are right? No. But don't look to the general for non-violence.

I believe the bolded above proves my point. Without internalized morality a CEO will go with the flow and without internalized morality somebody will be found who doesn't have any if he does.

Our world is our reflection.
 

1prophet

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
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Corporate behavior isn't determined by the personal morality of the CEO/Chairman. It has a whole different set of incentives, rules, requirements and rewards.

Corporate behavior is determined by the upper management including the CEO, they make the rules, policies and enforce them and should be responsible and held accountable for them
If you haven't seen it yet, you should watch the movie "The Corporation". Slow start, but it gets good.

All that movie does is try to put the blame on an abstraction called the corporation for the misdeeds of the people running them, no different than someone blaming America's system of government for Bush's, Cheney's, and Rumsfield's actions in Iraq and Afghanistan.
The rules of the game determine what happens more than individual leaders. A leader who says otherwise is generally not any longer the leader.

Rules of the game never determine what happens, people do by following them, making them or breaking them,(signing off on fraudulent loans because the rules of the game at the time demand it doesn't mean you are somehow blameless)and if a leader makes a stand and gets fired for questioning them, then he was just a figurehead doing the bidding of the board.
An example
http://www.chron.com/business/article/Fired-Countrywide-VP-files-suit-against-lender-1766817.php


http://www.zerohedge.com/news/sp-board-fires-ceo-telling-truth-be-replaced-coo-citibank
How many pacifist generals do we have? Does that mean the pacifists are wrong and the generals are right? No. But don't look to the general for non-violence.

The best Generals are the ones who least likely want to go to war because they understand the horrors of it and will give you an honest assessment like Eric Shinseki who was sacked by Rumsfield because of it
 
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Macamus Prime

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2011
3,108
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My question is: Do people in general find this trend to be a problem? if so, how do we solve it/is it solvable?

It is a problem, because the job creators are not creating jobs. They keep squeezing the working man for more effort and efficiency, to save head count costs and increase profits.

It is going to get to the point where it's just a CEO, his/her immediate friends and a bunch of "resources" in India and the Philippines.

Profit seekers do not care about you. Nor the laws of the country that protects their interests. Promises made in the 70s be damned, these pigs want money!
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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It is a problem, because the job creators are not creating jobs. They keep squeezing the working man for more effort and efficiency, to save head count costs and increase profits.

It is going to get to the point where it's just a CEO, his/her immediate friends and a bunch of "resources" in India and the Philippines.

Profit seekers do not care about you. Nor the laws of the country that protects their interests. Promises made in the 70s be damned, these pigs want money!

This is not new. This is why we have democracy over business, to tax the businesses society supports, or at least those who profit, for the benefit of society.

Things can be run for the benefit of a few people - peasants and royals - but America has often preferred to 'spread the wealth' more, 'a rising tide lifts all boats'.

Under Roosevelt tax rates, or lower JFK tax rates, the rich did just fine, and society did just fine. For 30 years we've had a radical class war with wealth all to the top.

Think about the average American's view of this as 'bad economic times', then contrast it to billionares having more than ever with skyrocketing incomes.

They've masked it with debt. That's harder to do. But don't tax the rich!
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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Corporate behavior is determined by the upper management including the CEO, they make the rules, policies and enforce them and should be responsible and held accountable for them

You aren't getting it. The parameters the management is allowed ot behave in are very narrow - they have to follow the needs of the corporation, not the good of society, not the management's personal ethics, just the profit of shareholders - and that's by law. The management has quite limited mobility about these things.

'Competitive pressures' force their choices whatever they 'want' to do.

Say one wants to spend a lot more on safety - can they afford to if their competition doesn't? Say one wants to pay workers a lot more - can they afford to if their competition doesn't? Say there's a way to do business that's bad for society but profitable for the corporation, and the management doesn't want to; some competition will do it, and gain competitive advantage, forcing them to do it too.

Responsible? Held accountable? By law their only accountability, other than the law which they can lobby to change almost how they want it, is to profit.

Please name me three times the shareholders of a company have every 'held management accountable' for anything other than profit at any Fortune 1000 corporation in the last 50 years. I can tell you one time there was an attempt; the Rockefeller family tried to organize a shareholder measure to vote to tell their management to act better for society. They lost. You're speaking a fantasy.

All that movie does is try to put the blame on an abstraction called the corporation for the misdeeds of the people running them, no different than someone blaming America's system of government for Bush's, Cheney's, and Rumsfield's actions in Iraq and Afghanistan.

You aren't getting it.

The management is required by law to pursue profit period. If they don't, they are gone. If the shareholders don't, competition rewards the competitors over them.

The only way this works differently is when government, democracy, makes rules for all of them to follow. "No, you can't gain competitive advantage by having a ridiculously unsafe work environment and getting rid of workers who are hurt, and this applies to you and your competitors". That works - and it's increasingly rare as corporations select the government and tell it what to pass into law.

A CEO can strongly want to do something, and have his options limited by the requirement for profit and competition.

This is also why it's often up to government to push 'good for society' things like basic research that no one company will make a big investment in if they won't profit quickly, and their competition will profit from it but not have to pay for it. In that case it doesn't get done, quite possibly, by a company, only the government, whether directly or by funding it or by tax incentives.

Rules of the game never determine what happens, people do by following them


I give up. That's exactly wrong, and I'm wasting my breath trying to inform you, no offense.

, making them or breaking them,(signing off on fraudulent loans because the rules of the game at the time demand it doesn't mean you are somehow blameless)and if a leader makes a stand and gets fired for questioning them,

No one is saying there aren't some limits, about things like *fraud*. of course there are. Enron and MCI should never have got as bad as they did, but they 'got caught'.

That sort of criminal behavior isn't what I'm talking about.


The best Generals are the ones who least likely want to go to war because they understand the horrors of it and will give you an honest assessment like Eric Shinseki who was sacked by Rumsfield because of it

Missed the point again. It was an analogy about generals not being pacifists - their scope of action is quite limited. They can decide some things about HOW to fight a battle, but they can't be a pacifist, or they're removed (that's an extreme example). The issue of some political battle with Rumsfeld has nothing to do with the point.

CEOs can say, "here's a way to be more profitable", but they can't say "let's give up 25% of our profits to do things in a way for the good of society", almost ever.

CEO power gives them a tiny bit of latitude; if they can 'benefit the profit' by doing something that 'looks good', they can do that. The other day a company ran a tv ad saying not a word about the product but only about their giving to a charity. There's a little room for that, but society cannot meet its needs for charitable activity by corporate giving programs they have the budget for taken from their profits.

Every corporation, at least nearly, has some sort of program for 'charity' (in part because they could be attacked by competitors who do if they didn't). It's small.

People think 'management can do what they like'; they can't do much against the profit of the corporation as a practical matter.

Only the law can push what's good for society, and that's why it breaks when corporations corrupt democracy.

Society says, "too big to fail finance companies gambling too much putting the economy at risk is bad for society, so you have to have more reserves, less leverage." The finance companies say, "more leverage means more profit, and so they'll push a change in the law for 'credit default swaps' not to be regulated which will replace insurance which is regulated, and exploit them, and make massive profits they get to keep even after it causes a huge crash."

There's this nice company who said "oh, that's not right, we won't do it". I'm sorry, did I say company? Former company. Competition put them out of business.

Solution? Government saying "hold on there, you can't do that". Corporations corrupting democracy - both parties - prevented that.

They're powerful enough they don't just influence laws; they right them, and in the case 'of 'government sachs', they run the government itself quite a bit.

Remember the story of a Bush aide who overheard him on the phone during the 2008 crash to Hank Paulson, saying Paulson had to let him know what he's doing?

This while Paul who had left Goldman Sachs to run Treasury was letting a competitor go out of business, while arranging for bailing out AIG - while not informing people that oh by the way, AIG had large debts to Goldman Sachs that this money would be used to pay Goldman Sachs, so he was REALLY bailing out his own company but hiding that? I digress, just pointing out the problem of corrupted democracy. And of course Goldman Sachs was Obama's biggest private donor.
 
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Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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I believe the bolded above proves my point. Without internalized morality a CEO will go with the flow and without internalized morality somebody will be found who doesn't have any if he does.

Our world is our reflection.

No, it proves my point that a CEO might morally want to do something, and he can't.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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No, it proves my point that a CEO might morally want to do something, and he can't.

Well this just proves that you don't know what internalized morality is because there is no such thing as wanting to do something and can't when your morals are internalized. In such a case the person and and his or her morality are one and the same thing. What you speak of is rationalization, something folk with internal morals don't engage in.

And besides, you are full of shit anyway because I just saw an ad of TV where the CEO of Toshiba saved the world from Zombies by insisting his laptops, regardless of cost, still have drop safe storage.
 
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