Adding fuel to the class-war fire: How do we bring altruism back to corporate America

[a777pilot]

We agree for a change.

Do you believe in enlightened self interest? If so, do you think there is any way to enforce it on corporations since they are unwilling to adopt it themselves?

Why force a business to be "good". I would settle for enforcing the laws to make a business run within the law. It is the people that are good or bad. They have always been both good and bad. A business is just a means. Stop trying to make a business altruistic. Why not force a car to be altruistic.

 

[Moonbeam]

We agree for a change.

Do you believe in enlightened self interest? If so, do you think there is any way to enforce it on corporations since they are unwilling to adopt it themselves?

Yup, enlightened self interest. Collapse is on its way and the brightest minds already see it. The subject of what to do is becoming more and more pressing as it nears. What was a long term problem is becoming much more immediate and the need for conscious evolution, questions as to what to do, have reach this forum. Humanity is cogitating all the time now on how to prevent collapse. Only the sleepers don't see what is happening.

 

[Moonbeam]

Why not force a car to be altruistic.

Oh we have. People like to survive crashes and insurance companies don't like large medical bills. Hello air bags, ABS breaks, and many more things here and on the way.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

Why force a business to be "good". I would settle for enforcing the laws to make a business run within the law. It is the people that are good or bad. They have always been both good and bad. A business is just a means. Stop trying to make a business altruistic. Why not force a car to be altruistic.

You seem to have missed my post where I agreed with you that people can be altruistic but, not businesses.

You have also failed to respond to my question regarding enlightened self interest.

If "good" is operating your business so that it is profitable in the long run AND allows others to be profitable as well then, yes, I believe we should force corporations to be "good."

 

[Moonbeam]

You seem to have missed my post where I agreed with you that people can be altruistic but, not businesses.

You have also failed to respond to my question regarding enlightened self interest.

If "good" is operating your business so that it is profitable in the long run AND allows others to be profitable as well then, yes, I believe we should force corporations to be "good."

You can't force corporations to be good. You can punish them for breaking laws. Whether those laws are good or bad is a different, but relevant issue.

 

[BoberFett]

Wrong. No regulation is required of people with internalized morality and all the regulation in the world will not stop scum from acting like scum.

This is the essential dilemma that Hayabusa has, he is an ethical person who suffers under the regulation required to manage scum and that is a disaster too.

Only deep empathy, what makes folk human, expressed systemically can save humanity. We spent millions of years in groups of thirty where everybody did different things but all were valued by necessity. Money is the root of all evil, can you see, because only some of the original thirty could earn a pay check.

Agree completely. It's quite a dilemma. :thumbsup:

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

You can't force corporations to be good. You can punish them for breaking laws. Whether those laws are good or bad is a different, but relevant issue.

Both you and a777pilot seem to have difficulty in understanding what I actually posted. The "good" i referred to was from a777pilot's post.

I seek ways to force corporations to follow the principles of enlightened self interest. Enacting laws is one way. In my previous post I referred to removing a law which protects Corporations from personal liability. Corporations (more specifically their lawyers) are very proficient at finding loopholes in existing laws and/or rendering them ineffective through protracted legal nonsense.

 

[Moonbeam]

Both you and a777pilot seem to have difficulty in understanding what I actually posted. The "good" i referred to was from a777pilot's post.

I seek ways to force corporations to follow the principles of enlightened self interest. Enacting laws is one way. In my previous post I referred to removing a law which protects Corporations from personal liability. Corporations (more specifically their lawyers) are very proficient at finding loopholes in existing laws and/or rendering them ineffective through protracted legal nonsense.

What you seek is to force corporations to follow the principles of enlightened self interest as you see it not as they see it presently. But in fact they are doing exactly what is in their self interest as their enlightenment reveals it to them.

So you are just imposing your moral view on them with the assumption you are more enlightened than they are. And all this leads to is more law and more crime because there will always be folk who will still do what they see is in their interest at the risk of getting caught. Thus we pass laws but de-fund enforcement at the behest of lobbyists etc.

The problem remains as I have described it. The only moral behavior of any value is internal. So the real question is what is real morality and how is it internalized.

 

[soccerballtux]

http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/06/speed-up-american-workers-long-hours

The above comes from Mother Jones website, a decidedly left-leaning news outlet. The article is written in a way to get the reader fired up and pissed off, but despite the spin, the basic premise is solid. I'll spare those of you who don't care to go through it. The charts are pretty interesting though.

Summary: By a variety of indicators, the recession wasn't that bad in the US. Both output and profits returned pretty quickly. People in the highest income bracket experienced a significant reduction in income but it was brief and they have long since surpassed their previous levels.

However, wages for the rest of society haven't changed in a long time. Also, employment hasn't recovered and it's because businesses have found ways to get more work out of less people. This means different things in different industries but accross the board, Americans have to work longer hours and shoulder more responsibilites. This process has been going on for some time but the recession has given businesses another excuse to overwork their employees. End Summary

Anecdotal evidence: I started working as a temporary office worker for a variety of tech firms in my state starting around 2000. A lot of them were going through down-sizing and they needed temps to fill in now and then while they re-organized devisions and so forth. Everywhere I went, I met guys who were doing the work of 2 or 3 people because of down-sizing. Another commonality was the duration of the re-structuring process. It always seemed to have been going on for a year or more.

My last job was in engineering at a defense contractor. My bosses there never over-worked me or pressured me into working extra time. However, people in production regularly had to work weekends and there was a prevailing culture of ''there's no such thing as too much overtime.'' A lot of people in our department, despite being salary employees, worked over 50 hours a week. End anecdotal evidence

My question is: Do people in general find this trend to be a problem? if so, how do we solve it/is it solvable?

Since altruism is illogical, you need some higher motivating ideology that can provide a greater return on investment than pure profit seeking can. We used to have one of these higher motivating ideologies, but we trashed it.

 

[soccerballtux]

Stockholder captalism has failed spectacularly. To see a system that works, look to Germany. They have very high taxes (top marginal bracket is 40-45%, and their top brackets cover a lot more people than we do), they have VAT tax, etc.

They also employ something called 'stakeholder capitalism' or 'codetermination' where capitalists don't get to do whatever they want and have to basically share their capital with the employees at their firm. Employees get 50% board representation, while smaller firms, they get 33% board representation. This is codified by German law.

This is why they have a booming economy with 6% umeployment and workers get ridiculous benefits like 6 weeks vacation. Of course this would never fly in America because we've decided that treating workers like dog shit should be the norm.

Socialism for the rich, capitalism for the poor.

Interesting theoretical solution.

Germany is winning because there is an entire continent of debtor nations importing German products. PIIGS are the main reason why Germany is doing so nicely.

 

[soccerballtux]

In response to a777pilot: Businesses are run by people. I worked for a business about 5 years ago that was run atruistically. The owner was a former nun. She specifically started and ran her business to serve the employees, the customers, and the town. It was an employee owned company and distributed profits equally between business growth projects, employees, and the township.

I think the business world reflects life in general. It's one massive prisoners dilema and there aren't enough people out there in the right places that understand that...

Were that business publicly traded they would oust her and hire someone more agreeable to the shareholders' interests. Who cares about the employee? Without jesus, this world is about using all the wealth and power one has to acquire more wealth. Not sure why anyone is surprised.

 

[soccerballtux]

What you seek is to force corporations to follow the principles of enlightened self interest as you see it not as they see it presently. But in fact they are doing exactly what is in their self interest as their enlightenment reveals it to them.

So you are just imposing your moral view on them with the assumption you are more enlightened than they are. And all this leads to is more law and more crime because there will always be folk who will still do what they see is in their interest at the risk of getting caught. Thus we pass laws but de-fund enforcement at the behest of lobbyists etc.

The problem remains as I have described it. The only moral behavior of any value is internal. So the real question is what is real morality and how is it internalized.

That's some lucid thinking there moonbeam. You hit the nail on the head. You've been thinking about this sort of stuff a lot haven't you?

 

[a777pilot]

You seem to have missed my post where I agreed with you that people can be altruistic but, not businesses.

You have also failed to respond to my question regarding enlightened self interest.

If "good" is operating your business so that it is profitable in the long run AND allows others to be profitable as well then, yes, I believe we should force corporations to be "good."

I fail and miss a lot.

LOL!

 

[soccerballtux]

Yup, enlightened self interest. Collapse is on its way and the brightest minds already see it. The subject of what to do is becoming more and more pressing as it nears. What was a long term problem is becoming much more immediate and the need for conscious evolution, questions as to what to do, have reach this forum. Humanity is cogitating all the time now on how to prevent collapse. Only the sleepers don't see what is happening.

please expound on this more, I agree, but I want to hear more, and why you think this

 

[BoberFett]

I don't think I've ever been more enamored with Moonbeam's line of thinking than I am in this thread.

 

[sandorski]

We don't need corporations to be altruistic. We need them to function under rules of a government serving the people's interests.

this

 

[AlienCraft]

I don't think I've ever been more enamored with Moonbeam's line of thinking than I am in this thread.

:thumbsup: He articulated the point quite well. I need to print it out and clip it where I can see it and let it soak in over the course of the day.

 

[1prophet]

Businesses are not nor can they ever be altruistic. People are.

Businesses are a direct reflection of the people running them and their core values.

 

[AlienCraft]

Businesses are not nor can they ever be altruistic. People are.

But if they were, they would be sociopaths.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

What you seek is to force corporations to follow the principles of enlightened self interest as you see it not as they see it presently. But in fact they are doing exactly what is in their self interest as their enlightenment reveals it to them.

So you are just imposing your moral view on them with the assumption you are more enlightened than they are. And all this leads to is more law and more crime because there will always be folk who will still do what they see is in their interest at the risk of getting caught. Thus we pass laws but de-fund enforcement at the behest of lobbyists etc.

The problem remains as I have described it. The only moral behavior of any value is internal. So the real question is what is real morality and how is it internalized.

The principles of enlightened self interest are not based on morality or personal perspective. They are based on the idea that many people succeeding in a smaller scale is preferable to a few people succeeding at the cost of the majority.

In plain, every day language, more people being a little successful in the long run is better for the economy, life style and, over all "health" of society than a few people leveraging their influence to control that society.

I really do think you should read up on it. It is not a plea for everyone to play "nice." Enlightened self interest is an actual, workable, planned approach to doing business.

 

[Moonbeam]

MagnusTheBrewer: The principles of enlightened self interest are not based on morality or personal perspective.

What the hell do you think principled means?

1.
an accepted or professed rule of action or conduct: a person of good moral principles.

2.
a fundamental, primary, or general law or truth from which others are derived: the principles of modern physics.

3.
a fundamental doctrine or tenet; a distinctive ruling opinion: the principles of the Stoics.

4.
principles, a personal or specific basis of conduct or management: to adhere to one's principles; a kindergarten run on modern principles.

5.
guiding sense of the requirements and obligations of right conduct: a person of principle.

See all them references to personal and morality, right conduct the good etc?

MTB: They are based on the idea that many people succeeding in a smaller scale is preferable to a few people succeeding at the cost of the majority.

M: Preferable to value judgments based on some notion of the good.

MTB: In plain, every day language, more people being a little successful in the long run is better for the economy, life style and, over all "health" of society than a few people leveraging their influence to control that society.

M: I don't know about you but in the world I live in all I see is a few people leveraging their influence to control society and you hope to change that how, by forcing them to behave according to your notion that what you are saying is truth. It's just your truth against their truth, isn't it. If you can't morally persuade them then what else is there but force. If you use force you are just like every other mad man who has the answers to human failure.

MTB: I really do think you should read up on it.

M: Somebody gave me the book of Mormon so you'll have to get in line.

MTB: It is not a plea for everyone to play "nice." Enlightened self interest is an actual, workable, planned approach to doing business.

M: I am sure it is, a plan like a million others. Pie in the sky.

Enlightened self interest is a wonderful thing and I think if you find an enlightened person you will find he or she already practices it but for the rest of us poor savages, we will never see it unless there becomes some need.

 

[Zebo]

People are dead inside or at least won't let themselves feel. Probably never.


I never should say never but it don't look good.

 

[Infohawk]

This is silly and misguided. Corporations exist to make profits for their shareholders. That doesn't mean we have to be slaves to corporations. We have laws that protect workers and perhaps could consider some more.

But what this is really about is the shitty economy. Unemployment doesn't just hurt the unemployed. It hurts the employed too because they are more easily replaceable and wages / benefits / working conditions are driven down.

This most recent hiring downturn is just the culmination of decades of outsourcing and excessive immigration. Before we had tech bubbles and housing bubbles to put band aids on the problem by creating excessive startup and mortgage broker jobs... I don't think another bubble is even going to solve anything at this point.

 

[Engineer]

I don't think another bubble is even going to solve anything at this point.

Sure it can...if we can pop China's long currency bubble (i.e. force it to value up), a big part of the problem can be solved. Throw in "fair" trade and then we can see if it can be turned around.

 

[Moonbeam]

This is silly and misguided. Corporations exist to make profits for their shareholders. That doesn't mean we have to be slaves to corporations. We have laws that protect workers and perhaps could consider some more.

But what this is really about is the shitty economy. Unemployment doesn't just hurt the unemployed. It hurts the employed too because they are more easily replaceable and wages / benefits / working conditions are driven down.

This most recent hiring downturn is just the culmination of decades of outsourcing and excessive immigration. Before we had tech bubbles and housing bubbles to put band aids on the problem by creating excessive startup and mortgage broker jobs... I don't think another bubble is even going to solve anything at this point.

As I mentioned the fact that corporations exist to make profits for shareholders is a dead end that is killing the world, and millions of people, business people, CEOs etc. know it. The problem is churning constantly in the unconscious of millions of folk and answers are coalescing to return altruism to the workplace. It all comes down to the question as to what is the meaning of life and folk are discovering in greater and greater numbers it ain't profit in the form of money. There is only one thing really that turns people on and that is a meaningful life. And when your work is meaningful your life is too. The mission statements of corporations are where this can be reflected.

The world is a big place and I have learned I have no idea at all about most of the stuff that is going on. What I do know is that new organs of perception, new insights and solutions, happen when there's a need. This is the up side to going down hill. The question is will consciousness or gravity win.