Actual driving lessons?

[HybridSquirrel]

shens. can you provide a link showing it's rated for -20F?

Costco.com. the brocure at the tire shop for the bridgestones I got say operating temperatures will range between -20 and 110f....jelly.

 

[ShawnD1]

You were the one praising the EPA's driving advice.

Why did you think I quoted them

And the EPA is right. If you want proper gas mileage, you need to drive fast. According to their graph, you should be going at least 40mph all the time. People on all season tires drive slow as hell. They take the off-ramp going 20mph instead of 40-50mph, they never go anywhere near the speed limit on straight roads, they take forever to get up to speed when merging and they end up running red lights because their piece of crap vehicle can't stop in time. Because they slow down the overall flow of traffic, it means more of us are idling our cars and waiting for them to get the hell off the road. People on all season tires also have the problem of tires spinning but producing no effective power. When winter tires spin, they throw snow around, they dig to find ground, and the car moves. When all season tires spin, all they do is spin. No snow moving, the car isn't moving, so gas is being consumed for basically no reason.

winter tires = better mileage (not safer because you're more likely to die in a 40mph crash than in a 20mph crash, especially if you're the pedestrian)

 

[LTC8K6]

And the EPA is right. If you want proper gas mileage, you need to drive fast. According to their graph, you should be going at least 40mph all the time. People on all season tires drive slow as hell. They take the off-ramp going 20mph instead of 40-50mph, they never go anywhere near the speed limit on straight roads, they take forever to get up to speed when merging and they end up running red lights because their piece of crap vehicle can't stop in time. Because they slow down the overall flow of traffic, it means more of us are idling our cars and waiting for them to get the hell off the road. People on all season tires also have the problem of tires spinning but producing no effective power. When winter tires spin, they throw snow around, they dig to find ground, and the car moves. When all season tires spin, all they do is spin. No snow moving, the car isn't moving, so gas is being consumed for basically no reason.

winter tires = better mileage (not safer because you're more likely to die in a 40mph crash than in a 20mph crash, especially if you're the pedestrian)

I think you are interpreting the EPA incorrectly, but I don't care.

I have all season tires on my vehicles. I have driven through several snowstorms this year. Not once did my tires spin a lot while I was driving to and from work, etc. Not once did my traction control cause me to be stuck. Not once did I have to "fling snow" to get moving.

Not once.

In fact, not ever, even going back years.

And, even my 5.7L Hemi only burns about 1 ounce of fuel a minute. That's about 1 shot glass full to idle for 1 minute. Hardly worth worrying about to me. 1/2 a gallon for an hour of idling.

 

[BlackTigers]

did anyone point out to fleabag the initial investment of buying winter tires, vs just dealing with the $1.50 of lost gas? haha

 

[CurseTheSky]

And the EPA is right. If you want proper gas mileage, you need to drive fast. According to their graph, you should be going at least 40mph all the time. People on all season tires drive slow as hell. They take the off-ramp going 20mph instead of 40-50mph, they never go anywhere near the speed limit on straight roads, they take forever to get up to speed when merging and they end up running red lights because their piece of crap vehicle can't stop in time. Because they slow down the overall flow of traffic, it means more of us are idling our cars and waiting for them to get the hell off the road. People on all season tires also have the problem of tires spinning but producing no effective power. When winter tires spin, they throw snow around, they dig to find ground, and the car moves. When all season tires spin, all they do is spin. No snow moving, the car isn't moving, so gas is being consumed for basically no reason.

winter tires = better mileage (not safer because you're more likely to die in a 40mph crash than in a 20mph crash, especially if you're the pedestrian)

I would really love to know where you live, because I can't think of any place on this planet where the conditions would warrant using snow tires and exits would be safe at 40-50 MPH.

If the weather / road conditions call for winter tires, driving faster to raise your fuel economy should not be one of your concerns. If the weather and roads are decent enough to get up to 40-50 MPH in most areas, winter tires aren't necessary.

 

[HybridSquirrel]

did anyone point out to fleabag the initial investment of buying winter tires, vs just dealing with the $1.50 of lost gas? haha

He would just argue how that's invalid...and then go break another toyota corolla

 

[ShawnD1]

I would really love to know where you live, because I can't think of any place on this planet where the conditions would warrant using snow tires and exits would be safe at 40-50 MPH.

If the weather / road conditions call for winter tires, driving faster to raise your fuel economy should not be one of your concerns. If the weather and roads are decent enough to get up to 40-50 MPH in most areas, winter tires aren't necessary.

This is where I live:

(picture of my car's outdoor temperature gauge taken a few weeks ago)

It's fine if you or the OP want to keep using rock hard all season tires that spin out when you look at them the wrong way, and it's fine if you refuse to take off-ramps going 40mph. Just remember that it's hurting your fuel economy and it's make everyone else behind you pissed off because you're driving way too slow.

did anyone point out to fleabag the initial investment of buying winter tires, vs just dealing with the $1.50 of lost gas? haha

cost to fix OP's car because he didn't have winter tires: many many hundreds, possibly thousands of dollars

 

[Demo24]

And the EPA is right. If you want proper gas mileage, you need to drive fast. According to their graph, you should be going at least 40mph all the time. People on all season tires drive slow as hell. They take the off-ramp going 20mph instead of 40-50mph, they never go anywhere near the speed limit on straight roads, they take forever to get up to speed when merging and they end up running red lights because their piece of crap vehicle can't stop in time. Because they slow down the overall flow of traffic, it means more of us are idling our cars and waiting for them to get the hell off the road. People on all season tires also have the problem of tires spinning but producing no effective power. When winter tires spin, they throw snow around, they dig to find ground, and the car moves. When all season tires spin, all they do is spin. No snow moving, the car isn't moving, so gas is being consumed for basically no reason.

winter tires = better mileage (not safer because you're more likely to die in a 40mph crash than in a 20mph crash, especially if you're the pedestrian)

A few things you need to understand

a)there is such a thing as 'too fast for the conditions', congrats you seem to achieve this every day.

b)the accelerator is capable of being modulated, it is NOT an on/off switch. This will help you when you can figure this out.

c)There is a point of maximum efficiency in regards to speed, engine speed, and gear. Going 30mph in 5th gear? lol, FUCK NO. I would bet that you use MORE gas in that gear than say 3rd which would probably only turn in the 2-2.5k range. Why? Because in top gear the engine is actually working HARDER even though you would have lower revs. Your obsession with the number of gears and always putting a car in the highest is asinine. Judging from what you've said your mom must have taught you this. You drive in the correct gear for the correct speed, even your manual will detail when to shift into the next gear. If that means at 25mph I'm in 2nd and turning 2-2.5k instead of 1.5k, so be it. It is FAR easier to drive at that range, the engine isn't struggling, and because of such I guarantee you I am not using any significant amount of fuel more.

d)You should realize that EPA graph is not applicable for many scenarios. What it is saying is that on a flat surface, because you are only going 10mph you will end up using xx amount of fuel over this span. Not because the engine is using MORE fuel to go slow, but simply due to passage of time. There becomes a certain point between time traveled and efficiency around 55mph, that hardly means driving around in the city, etc for brief periods of time at 35mph means you are getting 15mpg, or better put the engine isnt using MORE fuel to do this. Want to see for yourself? Get a scangauge.

 

[HybridSquirrel]

He's not going to crash and burn because he isn't using snow tires in winter dip shit. Its not like snow tires automatically mean he's going to drive better....you're so fucking dumb man.

 

[ShawnD1]

a)there is such a thing as 'too fast for the conditions', congrats you seem to achieve this every day.

I've never slid off the road before (in winter) and I've never been ruled at fault for an accident. That doesn't automatically mean going 40mpg on ramps is safe, but if I've been doing it every year for many consecutive years then chances are it's pretty safe. It's sort of like sky diving.

b)the accelerator is capable of being modulated, it is NOT an on/off switch. This will help you when you can figure this out.

😕

c)There is a point of maximum efficiency in regards to speed, engine speed, and gear. Going 30mph in 5th gear? lol, FUCK NO. I would bet that you use MORE gas in that gear than say 3rd which would probably only turn in the 2-2.5k range.

Next time you drive one of your automatic transmission cars, pay close attention to the rpm gauge. When the cruise control is on, a Corolla will sit at 1500rpm in top gear in regular city driving. The guys who designed it are under the impression that it should be in that gear at that rpm.

d)You should realize that EPA graph is not applicable for many scenarios. What it is saying is that on a flat surface, because you are only going 10mph you will end up using xx amount of fuel over this span. Not because the engine is using MORE fuel to go slow, but simply due to passage of time.

You can put any kind of reason you want on it. The simple fact remains. If you are going 20mph, it will take more gasoline to move 1 mile than if you were going 40mph.

Want to see for yourself? Get a scangauge.

All modern Corollas have instantaneous fuel consumption gauges on them. Yes I actually have tested this before. When traveling at speeds that are too slow to allow it to pop into overdrive, gas mileage is significantly less. What's fun is to travel at a constant speed then switch it through the gears. Have the cruise control in D and see what the mpg is, move the stick to 3 and look at it again, move it to 2 and look at it again.

 

[zerocool84]

You guys need to stop talking to him. He thinks that anyone who drives a FWD or RWD car in the snow is going to automatically die.

 

[alkemyst]

You can put any kind of reason you want on it. The simple fact remains. If you are going 20mph, it will take more gasoline to move 1 mile than if you were going 40mph.

This is definitely not true at all.

It's really about RPM's and it's not always the slower speed that burns the least gas in practice.

 

[HybridSquirrel]

You guys need to stop talking to him. He thinks that anyone who drives a FWD or RWD car in the snow is going to automatically die.

and if you don't have snow tires in winter....you automatically are going to die.

 

[ShawnD1]

This is definitely not true at all.

It's really about RPM's and it's not always the slower speed that burns the least gas in practice.

This is not true either. Drive the car in overdrive at 2000rpm in your highest gear and look at the instantaneous fuel consumption. Now try the exact same thing in first gear and look at fuel consumption. Lower gears consume waaaaay more gas even when running at the same rpm.

 

[Demo24]

This is not true either. Drive the car in overdrive at 2000rpm in your highest gear and look at the instantaneous fuel consumption. Now try the exact same thing in first gear and look at fuel consumption. Lower gears consume waaaaay more gas even when running at the same rpm.

That figure is NOT counting how much fuel is being put into the engine. It's just a basic x by x, calculation.

 

[DivideBYZero]

This is not true either. Drive the car in overdrive at 2000rpm in your highest gear and look at the instantaneous fuel consumption. Now try the exact same thing in first gear and look at fuel consumption. Lower gears consume waaaaay more gas even when running at the same rpm.

 

[evident]

This is not true either. Drive the car in overdrive at 2000rpm in your highest gear and look at the instantaneous fuel consumption. Now try the exact same thing in first gear and look at fuel consumption. Lower gears consume waaaaay more gas even when running at the same rpm.

please, drive really fast the next time it snows and get back to us. especially go 45mph around a turn too

 

[LTC8K6]

This is not true either. Drive the car in overdrive at 2000rpm in your highest gear and look at the instantaneous fuel consumption. Now try the exact same thing in first gear and look at fuel consumption. Lower gears consume waaaaay more gas even when running at the same rpm.

I think in my Jeep the highest gear is about 80mph at 2K revs and the lowest about 5mph at 2K revs...

 

[HybridSquirrel]

This is not true either. Drive the car in overdrive at 2000rpm in your highest gear and look at the instantaneous fuel consumption. Now try the exact same thing in first gear and look at fuel consumption. Lower gears consume waaaaay more gas even when running at the same rpm.

I can coast in 1st gear at 2000rpms and consume way less gas than at 5th gear and 2000rpms and my foot on the gas. To say you consume less in low gears is misleading. You consume gas accelerating, not simply by staying in low gears.

 

[JCH13]

coefficient of friction is determined by tyre material, not pressure

of course ATG refuses to believe such a thing as coefficient of friction exists and therefore ATG assumes winter and summer tires have the exact same coefficient of friction on ice. I'm not even putting words in peoples mouths. Someone posted that, and I've heard people say that in real life. Do those people ever wonder why tires are made from rubber?

(1)False. Tires' coefficient of friction is sensitive to contact pressure/loading. This is why high-performance cars are designed to minimize weight transfer.

(2)Quote the post or GTFO.

 

[Howard]

I can coast in 1st gear at 2000rpms and consume way less gas than at 5th gear and 2000rpms and my foot on the gas. To say you consume less in low gears is misleading. You consume gas accelerating, not simply by staying in low gears.

Depends on the engine programming. My car uses a lot of gas in 1st for no reason at all (no throttle).

 

[ShawnD1]

That figure is NOT counting how much fuel is being put into the engine. It's just a basic x by x, calculation.

It measures fuel leaving the gas tank but it doesn't measure fuel going into the engine? Where is it going?

please, drive really fast the next time it snows and get back to us. especially go 45mph around a turn too

I do every day and it's never a problem. When your car isn't a total piece of shit, it's not a problem. I even a started a parody thread about this concept. You guys were saying it's perfectly normal to drive on useless summer tires that can't take corners going 40, and you guys said the correct answer was driving slower. Without skipping a beat, the exact same people then said driving on bald tires that can't take corners going 40 was totally unacceptable. So which one is it? Do you expect drivers to use proper rated equipment so they can actually go the speed limit, or do you expect drivers to continue using garbage equipment then drive way slower?

I can coast in 1st gear at 2000rpms and consume way less gas than at 5th gear and 2000rpms and my foot on the gas. To say you consume less in low gears is misleading. You consume gas accelerating, not simply by staying in low gears.

Measure the mpg when you're going 60mph on the highway then compare that against the mpg when idling in first gear. I'll even tell you what the results are so you don't need to spend time doing this. When idling in first gear and going about 5mph or however fast first gear idles, my Corolla's computer says the instantaneous gas mileage is 12L/100km or 20mpg US. That's horrendously bad mileage and that's at a nice and steady 800rpm. If the gas mileage is based on rpm rather than gear, why is the mileage so bad? On the open road at 60mph, fuel consumption jumps over 40mpg even though the engine is spinning more than 2x as fast.

(1)False. Tires' coefficient of friction is sensitive to contact pressure/loading. This is why high-performance cars are designed to minimize weight transfer.

(2)Quote the post or GTFO.

You know I don't like calling people out and naming names, but I'll do it just because you asked:

You do realize that winter tires are designed for deep snow correct? On ice, they are no better than regular tires. Ice requires studs or chains.......

He is saying that the coefficient of friction between hard rubber and ice is exactly the same as soft rubber and ice. That's so obviously wrong that it makes my balls hurt. If you watch the video I posted right after that, you'll see that the softer tires with no studs stop in half the distance and they can take corners going twice as fast. It's pretty damn obvious that different rubber compounds have wildly different coefficients of friction against ice.

Depends on the engine programming. My car uses a lot of gas in 1st for no reason at all (no throttle).

Engines generally don't like a severely limited throttle. Thermodynamic efficiency of the engine is much higher when it's working hard. In first gear at constant speed, the engine is not working hard at all; you're probably feathering the pedal as light as possible just to prevent it from accelerating. Here's what wiki has to say:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_efficiency

Gasoline engines also suffer efficiency losses at low throttle from the high turbulence and head loss when the incoming air must fight its way around the nearly-closed throttle; diesel engines do not suffer this loss because the incoming air is not throttled. Engine efficiency improves considerably at open road speeds; it peaks in most applications at around 75% of rated engine power, which is also the range of greatest engine torqu

 

[HybridSquirrel]

I can still be riding the throttle going 60 in 5th gear, and be spending more fuel than 1st or 2nd at 2000rpms and just coasting. 5th gear and 2000rpms for me is about 45mph, at 60 I am usually riding up near 2800rpm and waisting fuel because I have to keep the throttle on more.

The reason why you get more gas mileage at higher speed is because generally you are coasting (Hwy) at those speeds, as apposed to accelerating and decelerating(city). But coasting at 25mph will get you way more than coasting at 55mph.

 

[Howard]

Engines generally don't like a severely limited throttle. Thermodynamic efficiency of the engine is much higher when it's working hard. In first gear at constant speed, the engine is not working hard at all; you're probably feathering the pedal as light as possible just to prevent it from accelerating. Here's what wiki has to say:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_efficiency

Nope. It's because my engine ECU is retarded and gives me air when I don't want any; it controls a DBW throttle.

 

[EightySix Four]

All of this argument is stupid because it is different on each car.

Let's say we have a car with a 5 speed transmission. At 30mph in 3rd gear the car is at 2000 rpm, in 4th gear 1500 rpm, and in 5 gear it's at 1000rpm for the sake of simplicity.

While in 3rd gear the engine may be under 10% load, in 4th it's under 20% load, and in 5th it's under 30% load. Depending on the ECU and motor itself, those conditions may all be equal, or any single one of them may be the most fuel efficient. In my particular car, it would be actually be 3rd gear, because in 4th and 5th gear the engine is working quite a bit harder and wasting gas even when the pedal is held constant. This is heavily exaggerated on hills and when the car is carrying any extra weight. If you don't believe me, I can show you engine logs proving this pretty easily.

If the car requires x amount of power to the wheels to move at 30mph constantly, than as you shift up, the motor needs to produce more torque to put the necessary amount of power to the wheels. X varies with speed and there are diminishing returns as you move up the RPM band as far as power vs fuel consumption, so at some particular point it makes more sense to shift, despite the fact the motor needs more torque to stay at a constant speed after the shift.