ACLU Threatens Lawsuit After Wisconsin Police Seize Man's Upside-Down American Flag

[MotionMan]

Originally posted by: halik
People are fucking idiots, upside down flag is a sign of distress

Text

I think people should honk out S.O.S. on their car horns in protest of foreign oil imports.

MotionMan

 

[jersiq]

Originally posted by: spidey07
Could be considered a problem. Distress means you need assistance or something really bad is going on. This is exactly like yelling fire in a crowded theater, that's not protected.

I see the angle that it was a disruption. Really could go either way on this one.

And upside down flag could have emergency services called to assist you so it's also like a false 911 call.

Some need to review Bradenburg vs. Ohio.

Simply, free speech is not protected when it is used as a vehicle to incite lawless actions.
What you are grasping for is - falsely informing others there is a fire in the theater. Do you think every play in existence has had the word fire struck from it?

Clearly he wasn't attempting to incite a riot over his license, just a mere protest. And before someone says he could have incited a roving pack of people hell-bent on flags being flown correctly to violence or lawlessness, you have to consider if this is even feasible (roving pack) or common occurrence where he lives.

 

[lupi]

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Originally posted by: JS80
i don't get why the ACLU is defending him though. he wasn't doing it to be anti-american.

You do understand what the ACLU does, right?

Yes, they defend anti-american behavior in the guise of protecting the Constitution.

Do you actually believe the stupid things you type?

that depends, are you that clueless to not realize he's correct.

 

[zerocool84]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: Atomic Playboy
JS80 and spidey07 give us ACLU supporters a perfect test case for our insistence that freedom of speech and expression is a right that should be cherished and defended. I may find the fetid shit that they spew vile and offensive, but I'll gladly stand up and defend their right to say it. If that makes me a card-carrying communist ACLU-sympathizer red socialist freedom-hating son of a bitch, so be it. At least I don't have qualms about standing up to defend the freedoms of people I don't agree with.

do you even know how I voted in the poll? my opinion is the opposite of spidey in this case. i am merely shitting on the ACLU and I laugh at you sheep who think the ACLU's purpose is to protect "civil liberties."

FYI this isn't P&N so if you want to discuss that go post over there. I don't want to hear political views. If I did I'd visit P&N.

 

[ed21x]

hanging a flag upside down on the fourth of july is like burning a flag in front of a southern black baptist church. i'd say it is pretty provocative on a day when people are trying to honor american soldiers, regardless of his true reasons for doing it.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Originally posted by: spidey07
Then go fly a nice big flag, upside down, on a flag pole and see what happens. I'm not making my experience up - probably why I'm the only one with this point of view...personal experience.

So do you think the police were correct to seize the flag in this instance? Or would there have been a more appropriate way of dealing with this potential problem?

Shouldn't have seized it. Both sides acted like jackasses. Like I said, I can go either way on this one and both are somewhat right and somewhat wrong.

There had to be some other way for the owner to handle this, same with the police.

 

[nakedfrog]

Originally posted by: lupi

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Originally posted by: JS80
i don't get why the ACLU is defending him though. he wasn't doing it to be anti-american.

You do understand what the ACLU does, right?

Yes, they defend anti-american behavior in the guise of protecting the Constitution.

Do you actually believe the stupid things you type?

that depends, are you that clueless to not realize he's correct.

Isn't most so-called "anti-American behavior" Constitutionally protected? Apart from treason and the like? I will say that I don't agree with everything they do, but what JS80 said is just plain stupid.

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: spidey07
Could be considered a problem. Distress means you need assistance or something really bad is going on. This is exactly like yelling fire in a crowded theater, that's not protected.

I see the angle that it was a disruption. Really could go either way on this one.

And upside down flag could have emergency services called to assist you so it's also like a false 911 call.

Tell me, could you keep a straight face while typing that? Honestly?

Yes I could. I accidentally flew the flag upside down once and had EMS, fire and police show up asking if I needed assistance. Caused a big ruckus.

/furiously taps sarcasm meter

WTF? Seriously? You've got to be kidding?

:laugh:

I've gotta remember this. If my house is on fire, I'm being robbed or I need EMS assistance, I'll just run out and turn my flag upside down.

:laugh::laugh:

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: Eli


/furiously taps sarcasm meter

WTF? Seriously? You've got to be kidding?

:laugh:

I've gotta remember this. If my house is on fire, I'm being robbed or I need EMS assistance, I'll just run out and turn my flag upside down.

:laugh::laugh:

I'm not kidding, however I'm not telling the whole story either. I was responsible for the flag at my middle school. One morning I raised it upside down (on accident) and indeed a whole slew of emergency vehicles descended upon the school within about an hour, or less can't recall timing. I can laugh about it now but at the time I was in some deep doo-doo.

They truly acted like it was a severe signal of distress.

 

[MotionMan]

Originally posted by: jersiq

Originally posted by: spidey07
Could be considered a problem. Distress means you need assistance or something really bad is going on. This is exactly like yelling fire in a crowded theater, that's not protected.

I see the angle that it was a disruption. Really could go either way on this one.

And upside down flag could have emergency services called to assist you so it's also like a false 911 call.

Some need to review Bradenburg vs. Ohio.

Simply, free speech is not protected when it is used as a vehicle to incite lawless actions.
What you are grasping for is - falsely informing others there is a fire in the theater. Do you think every play in existence has had the word fire struck from it?

THIS is why I do not go near P&N.

MotionMan

 

[MotionMan]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Eli


/furiously taps sarcasm meter

WTF? Seriously? You've got to be kidding?

:laugh:

I've gotta remember this. If my house is on fire, I'm being robbed or I need EMS assistance, I'll just run out and turn my flag upside down.

:laugh::laugh:

I'm not kidding, however I'm not telling the whole story either. I was responsible for the flag at my middle school. One morning I raised it upside down (on accident) and indeed a whole slew of emergency vehicles descended upon the school within about an hour, or less can't recall timing. I can laugh about it now but at the time I was in some deep doo-doo.

They truly acted like it was a severe signal of distress.

Didn't anyone ever watch 'Black Sheep Squadron' (aka 'Baa Baa Black Sheep')?

MotionMan (Reaching way back into the TV reference bag of tricks with this one)

 

[her209]

Originally posted by: Eli
I've gotta remember this. If my house is on fire, I'm being robbed or I need EMS assistance, I'll just run out and turn my flag upside down.

:laugh::laugh:

Exactly what I was thinking.

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Eli


/furiously taps sarcasm meter

WTF? Seriously? You've got to be kidding?

:laugh:

I've gotta remember this. If my house is on fire, I'm being robbed or I need EMS assistance, I'll just run out and turn my flag upside down.

:laugh::laugh:

I'm not kidding, however I'm not telling the whole story either. I was responsible for the flag at my middle school. One morning I raised it upside down (on accident) and indeed a whole slew of emergency vehicles descended upon the school within about an hour, or less can't recall timing. I can laugh about it now but at the time I was in some deep doo-doo.

They truly acted like it was a severe signal of distress.

That's crazy... LOL.

I guess it makes a little more sense knowing it was at a school, though I still think whoever freaked out about it is batshit insane.

 

[ScottyB]

Originally posted by: ed21x
hanging a flag upside down on the fourth of july is like burning a flag in front of a southern black baptist church. i'd say it is pretty provocative on a day when people are trying to honor american soldiers, regardless of his true reasons for doing it.

The 4th of July isn't about honoring American soldiers. It is about celebrating Americans creating a new nation after years of tyranny under British rule. It is the police and the DA that were acting in defiance of the holiday.

 

[daniel1113]

Originally posted by: BoomerD
They defend the US Bill of Rights...even when it's something unpopular.

To be fair, they defend 9 out of 10 of them. However, I still appreciate all the work they do with those 9.

 

[daniel1113]

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Originally posted by: lupi

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Originally posted by: JS80
i don't get why the ACLU is defending him though. he wasn't doing it to be anti-american.

You do understand what the ACLU does, right?

Yes, they defend anti-american behavior in the guise of protecting the Constitution.

Do you actually believe the stupid things you type?

that depends, are you that clueless to not realize he's correct.

Isn't most so-called "anti-American behavior" Constitutionally protected? Apart from treason and the like? I will say that I don't agree with everything they do, but what JS80 said is just plain stupid.

Short of treason, narrowly defined as levying war against one's own country and the only crime specifically defined in the Constitution, there is no such thing as anti-American behavior. Everything else is political rhetoric and bullshit.

 

[Modelworks]

Flying the flag upside down to signal distress was for SHIPS AT SEA . It is not a land signal for distress and is no longer to be used at sea, instead you have a special distress flag for that.
As for taking the guys flag, the ACLU has no case. They are not preventing him flying it any other time except when the crowd was there. You can't put up anything that causes a public disturbance. If you fly a flag with a happy face on it and people gather and start to get violent, the police will make you take it down.

Remember the law is to peacefully assemble.

 

[PELarson]

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Originally posted by: BoomerD
They defend the US Bill of Rights...even when it's something unpopular.

To be fair, they defend 9 out of 10 of them. However, I still appreciate all the work they do with those 9.

Nope they defend all 10 when asked.

http://axiomamuse.wordpress.co...-defends-2nd-in-texas/

Remember they only assist when asked.

 

[daniel1113]

Originally posted by: Modelworks
Flying the flag upside down to signal distress was for SHIPS AT SEA . It is not a land signal for distress and is no longer to be used at sea, instead you have a special distress flag for that.
As for taking the guys flag, the ACLU has no case. They are not preventing him flying it any other time except when the crowd was there. You can't put up anything that causes a public disturbance. If you fly a flag with a happy face on it and people gather and start to get violent, the police will make you take it down.

Remember the law is to peacefully assemble.

So, by your odd analysis of the situation, if I park my new Bugatti Vereyon in my driveway, and it happens to draw a large crowd, the police have the right to enter my property and take my car? After all, it's not like they are preventing me from owning it at any other time.

 

[daniel1113]

Originally posted by: PELarson

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Originally posted by: BoomerD
They defend the US Bill of Rights...even when it's something unpopular.

To be fair, they defend 9 out of 10 of them. However, I still appreciate all the work they do with those 9.

Nope they defend all 10 when asked.

http://axiomamuse.wordpress.co...-defends-2nd-in-texas/

Remember they only assist when asked.

Not quite. That was the American Civil Liberties Union of Texas, not the national ACLU. While they do work together in certain aspects, they are not the same. Many of the state ACLU groups do support the 2nd amendment, but that national ACLU has made it quite clear that they don't consider the 2nd amendment to be a civil liberties issue.

ACLU on the Second Amendment

The ACLU disagrees with the Supreme Court's conclusion about the nature of the right protected by the Second Amendment. We do not, however, take a position on gun control itself. In our view, neither the possession of guns nor the regulation of guns raises a civil liberties issue.

EDIT: It should also be pointed out that in the few gun-related cases where the ACLU has gotten involved, it was not to support gun rights, but rather due to other civil liberties being trampled upon. For example, there is currently a case in which the police are refusing to return a handgun to its owner who was acquitted of any criminal charges, and the ACLU stepped in to help the man retrieve his property.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Not quite. That was the American Civil Liberties Union of Texas, not the national ACLU. While they do work together in certain aspects, they are not the same. Many of the state ACLU groups do support the 2nd amendment, but that national ACLU has made it quite clear that they don't consider the 2nd amendment to be a civil liberties issue.

ACLU on the Second Amendment

The ACLU disagrees with the Supreme Court's conclusion about the nature of the right protected by the Second Amendment. We do not, however, take a position on gun control itself. In our view, neither the possession of guns nor the regulation of guns raises a civil liberties issue.

Yep, they love 9 of the 10. Ignore the one. Heck, make it 8 out of 10 because they hate the 10th as well.

 

[Corporate Thug]

Originally posted by: spidey07
Could be considered a problem. Distress means you need assistance or something really bad is going on. This is exactly like yelling fire in a crowded theater, that's not protected.

I see the angle that it was a disruption. Really could go either way on this one.

And upside down flag could have emergency services called to assist you so it's also like a false 911 call.

Um, no. It's not like that at all. It's analogous to Tinker v. De Moines:

In December 1965, a group of five students, including John Tinker and his sister Mary Beth Tinker, wore black armbands overlayed with a white a peace sign between the dates of December 16th and New Years Day. The principals of the students' schools had previously threatened to suspend any students who participated in the protest. Despite the warning, the small group of students proceeded to carry out their dissent, and were duely suspended. ACLU attorneys representing the students argued that the armbands constituted a form of symbolic speech and, because their demonstration was suppressed, their First Amendment rights were unconstitutionally restrained.
The court voted 7-2 in favor of Tinker, finding that the suspension had violated. [3] Justice Fortas, delivering the opinion of the court, held the following:

* "In wearing armbands, the petitioners were quiet and passive. They were not disruptive, and did not impinge upon the rights of others. In these circumstances, their conduct was within the protection of the Free Speech Clause of the First Amendment and the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth."
* "First Amendment rights are available to teachers and students, subject to application in light of the special characteristics of the school environment."
* "A prohibition against expression of opinion, without any evidence that the rule is necessary to avoid substantial interference with school discipline or the rights of others, is not permissible under the First and Fourteenth Amendments." [4]

From wiki, btw.

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Originally posted by: Modelworks
Flying the flag upside down to signal distress was for SHIPS AT SEA . It is not a land signal for distress and is no longer to be used at sea, instead you have a special distress flag for that.
As for taking the guys flag, the ACLU has no case. They are not preventing him flying it any other time except when the crowd was there. You can't put up anything that causes a public disturbance. If you fly a flag with a happy face on it and people gather and start to get violent, the police will make you take it down.

Remember the law is to peacefully assemble.

So, by your odd analysis of the situation, if I park my new Bugatti Vereyon in my driveway, and it happens to draw a large crowd, the police have the right to enter my property and take my car? After all, it's not like they are preventing me from owning it at any other time.

You would be free to do that. But the minute you get in the car and start honking the horn, revving the motor and making moves like you might run people over, then they could make you stop.

Think of the guy with the flag and forget the flag for a minute. Lets say instead of hanging a flag he is standing at his door giving everyone that passes by the finger, yelling insults at them . Do you think the police should be able to stop him ? Or should they let it continue till people start fighting.
The flag the way he had it displayed made the majority around it feel like he was giving them or their loved ones the finger.

 

[yowolabi]

Originally posted by: Modelworks
Flying the flag upside down to signal distress was for SHIPS AT SEA . It is not a land signal for distress and is no longer to be used at sea, instead you have a special distress flag for that.
As for taking the guys flag, the ACLU has no case. They are not preventing him flying it any other time except when the crowd was there. You can't put up anything that causes a public disturbance. If you fly a flag with a happy face on it and people gather and start to get violent, the police will make you take it down.

Remember the law is to peacefully assemble.

Bullshit, you're obviously not a lawyer. If I put up a flag on my own property that the crowd doesn't like and they start to get violent, it's the job of the police to handle the crowd, not to steal my flag. The violent crowd are the ones that peaceable assembling, not the flag hanger.

The police do not get to trample on civil rights just because it's convenient for them.

You might have a case if the guy took his upside down flag and marched into the middle of a hostile crowd. The police could decide that removing him was in the best interest of public safety. Not stealing his flag from him, but removing him for the sole purpose of protecting him.

Using your stupid argument, as I long as I get a big enough crowd to stand outside your door and act rowdy, I can have the police steal anything from your lawn gnomes to your television for as long as I can keep the crowd there. But hey, you're only deprived while the crowd was there, right? Must not be any rights violations.

 

[daniel1113]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Not quite. That was the American Civil Liberties Union of Texas, not the national ACLU. While they do work together in certain aspects, they are not the same. Many of the state ACLU groups do support the 2nd amendment, but that national ACLU has made it quite clear that they don't consider the 2nd amendment to be a civil liberties issue.

ACLU on the Second Amendment

The ACLU disagrees with the Supreme Court's conclusion about the nature of the right protected by the Second Amendment. We do not, however, take a position on gun control itself. In our view, neither the possession of guns nor the regulation of guns raises a civil liberties issue.

Yep, they love 9 of the 10. Ignore the one. Heck, make it 8 out of 10 because they hate the 10th as well.

Please don't use the things I say to support your opinion. You're dead wrong about the ACLU, and I don't want to be seen agreeing with you.