Accupuncture, placebo or solid medicine

[DrPizza]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16461169

So to sum all of this up:
-researchers confirm that acupuncture works
-researchers confirm that chiropractic works

Yup. There's absolutely nothing wrong with being skeptical. You SHOULD be skeptical of things. But, once the evidence starts coming out, then denying it makes you look foolish. Though, that doesn't mean quackropractic medicine (cracking your back will prevent the flu) automatically deserves any respect.

Astrology has been around a long time too. People will tell you they're getting benefit from it as well.

And there's nothing wrong with people being idiots and believing that stuff. The difference is that astrology would fail a double blind test.

 

[MichaelD]

It worked for me. I combined Acupuncture and chiropractic visits at a point where I could almost not walk (I have 2 ruptured disks in my lower back) and in 2 months I was able to compete in a national TaeKwon-Do tournament (2006, Las Vegas.)

I think Acupuncture is a form of reflexology... getting your body to respond to a specific stimuli. I also think it works on some people, and not on others.

So...just so I got this straight. You have two ruptured disks. You got some therapy (notice, no quotes) and then you competed in a karate tournament? 😵 How intelligent are you, really? If you would've wound up crippled you would've blamed the metocholrians in your blood, right? Darwin will find you one day. And you will win! Winnar!

 

[MrColin]

Yup. There's absolutely nothing wrong with being skeptical. You SHOULD be skeptical of things. But, once the evidence starts coming out, then denying it makes you look foolish.

I voted placebo in the OP but after reading the thread and some of the articles linked here I'm reconsidering.

 

[MichaelD]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16461169

So to sum all of this up:
-researchers confirm that acupuncture works
-researchers confirm that chiropractic works

I had Chiropractic care/manipulation for 5 years; I have a pinched nerve in the lumbar region. It absolutely works BUT depends totally on the provider. Some know what they are doing, some do not. Some take the time to learn your body and how it moves, some do not. The same guy who could decompress my spine and take away all pain for 48 hours also almost crippled me by adjusting my pelvis incorrectly. Yeah, I know that sounds weird. But it's true.

Chiro WORKS. However, you have to help yourself too. EXERCISE is paramount when you have certain alignment/disc/nerve issues. Sounds counter-intuitive, but the more I exercise, the less it hurts.

 

[Spungo]

I had Chiropractic care/manipulation for 5 years; I have a pinched nerve in the lumbar region. It absolutely works BUT depends totally on the provider.

Probably the same as seeing any other kind of medical person. It took a few tries before finding a family doctor that wasn't an idiot. Spotting a bad chiropractor might be easier. You go in with a sore lower back and he's talking about cracking your elbows. No thanks.

 

[MichaelD]

Probably the same as seeing any other kind of medical person. It took a few tries before finding a family doctor that wasn't an idiot. Spotting a bad chiropractor might be easier. You go in with a sore lower back and he's talking about cracking your elbows. No thanks.

One of the three Chiro's I saw was into "nerve trigger treatment" or something like that. If I had a pain in my left hip, he would dig his thumb into a "trigger point" halfway on the other side of my body. Most times it hurt like shit and made me forget about the original pain. (Major Payne broken finger scene). Other times it worked. Mind games? I have no idea. But another doc would lie me flat on my back, grab under my chin and the back of my head and pull straight back, hard. Every single vertebrae would pop from L1 to C3 or wherever the top is. It was just freaking awesome. :wub:

 

[yhelothar]

I always wondered if acupuncture actually works because it's releasing endorphins, or endogenous opioids, just like how any other massage or cutting yourself would.

Acupuncture uses needles that produce a lot of pain. Acupressure focuses on pressure points, these are points where when pressed, creates significant pain. If you endure through this pain temporarily, the body will release endorphins.

 

[DrPizza]

I always wondered if acupuncture actually works because it's releasing endorphins, or endogenous opioids, just like how any other massage or cutting yourself would.

Acupuncture uses needles that produce a lot of pain. Acupressure focuses on pressure points, these are points where when pressed, creates significant pain. If you endure through this pain temporarily, the body will release endorphins.

In one of the studies mentioned above, one group of people were poked with needles in the wrong places - they didn't have positive outcomes.

 

[jagec]

Chiro WORKS.

Sure, when they stick to things that they actually know about. When they try to cure AIDS by cracking your back is when I get a little skeptical.

 

[lxskllr]

Sure, when they stick to things that they actually know about. When they try to cure AIDS by cracking your back is when I get a little skeptical.

ATOT is the first place I ever heard of miracle chiro. It's not something I pay close attention to, but I never heard anyone claim it did more than fix back/posture issues.

 

[jagec]

ATOT is the first place I ever heard of miracle chiro. It's not something I pay close attention to, but I never heard anyone claim it did more than fix back/posture issues.

Read the Wiki article on chiropractic. It's interesting.

 

[lxskllr]

Read the Wiki article on chiropractic. It's interesting.

Looks like stuff I read here that I assumed was from a lunatic fringe is more mainstream than I thought. A large portion of the mixers(liberals) believe in the original tenets, at least in part. Oh well. That doesn't change my opinion of them for fixing back issues. I'd be reluctant to go cause I don't trust people with my back, but I believe they can help with some back problems.

 

[MetalMat]

I say placebo

 

[eits]

it's a little of both. there's a placebo effect that occurs, but that doesn't mean it isn't helpful. studies have shown that needling works, whether you're a trained acupuncturist or not. actually measuring chis and meridians and whatnot is a different story... i can't tell you much about that.

 

[T_Yamamoto]

Gray area

 

[Gibsons]

In one of the studies mentioned above, one group of people were poked with needles in the wrong places - they didn't have positive outcomes.

But in another one, they were poked with toothpicks and had positive outcomes.

 

[Gibsons]

And plenty of people swear by chiropractic care.

Astrology isn't a medical practice or intended to address medical health.

It demonstrates the fallacy of using "it's been around a long time" to determine what works or doesn't work.

 

[sdifox]

Except that inserting needles into people carries the risk of infection, transmission of diseases, nerve damage and damage to organs.

Some studies have shown that simulated acupuncture, using toothpicks in needle guides to simulate the needle points, are just as effective as real acupuncture.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19433697

I find it unethical to subject patients to procedures that cause increased risk without a good benefit.

You really should pay attention to the "possible side effect" part of drug commercials. Fuck I would rather live with the condition it is supposed to alleviate than risk the side effects they list.

 

[sdifox]

A proposed mechanism of acupuncture is the same mechanism by which rubbing a boo boo will make it feel better. You have wide dynamic range neurons in the spinal cord which carry a variety of sensory inputs, including pain. Acupuncture would stimulate a non-pain nerve which feeding into the wide dynamic range neuron and block pain receptors that goes to the same neuron from propagating their signals. Rubbing a wound would do the same thing, except in a much less precise and concentrated manner. This is the gating theory of pain. I have no idea whether or not this has been tested for acupuncture, but at least there's a physiological basis to the hypothesis. It most likely isn't just placebo.

I think along the same lines, I think it is a temporary signal blocker.

 

[ichy]

I dunno, but the Chinese have been at "alternative" cures since before most civilizations figured out the wheel, so I'm gonna lean toward it being for real. Don't expect Western medicine to embrace it; my GP thinks chiropractic is some kind of voodoo.

First of all, anyone who uses the term "Western medicine" is an idiot. There's effective medicine and there's quackery, any other distinction is meaningless.

Second of all I hope you realize that in the West we were doing stupid shit like bleeding people for hundreds if not thousands of years. That doesn't mean it wasn't worthless and harmful. The fact that they've been using their "cures" for a long time doesn't mean that they work worth a damn.

 

[ichy]

ATOT is the first place I ever heard of miracle chiro. It's not something I pay close attention to, but I never heard anyone claim it did more than fix back/posture issues.

I've walked by chiro offices that have signs on the outside which claim that regular "adjustments" are necessary for good health. Complete and utter quackery.

BTW, I'd be interested to see how chiro treatment for back pain compares to regular old physical therapy.

 

[Spungo]

I always wondered if acupuncture actually works because it's releasing endorphins, or endogenous opioids, just like how any other massage or cutting yourself would.

Acupuncture uses needles that produce a lot of pain. Acupressure focuses on pressure points, these are points where when pressed, creates significant pain. If you endure through this pain temporarily, the body will release endorphins.

That's also how hot sauce works. It seems silly that we intentionally eat things that cause our mouths to burn and eyes to water but that's why. Nerves can detect heat because heat allow ions to flow in a certain way. The chemical in spicy food facilitates that same response.

I can recall one time I was eating hot peppers being served at a family dinner. I was shaking and sweating from the peppers but I kept eating them because they tasted so good. I must have looked like a heroin addict. Shaking and eating hot peppers 😀

 

[the DRIZZLE]

Sure, when they stick to things that they actually know about. When they try to cure AIDS by cracking your back is when I get a little skeptical.

I don't understand why anyone would go to a chiropractor instead of a physical therapist. Physical therapists do basically the same thing, but with a grounding in traditional medicine and none of the crazy stuff.

 

[Capt Caveman]

I don't understand why anyone would go to a chiropractor instead of a physical therapist. Physical therapists do basically the same thing, but with a grounding in traditional medicine and none of the crazy stuff.

When I was in college, I injured my back. Neither a back specialist or physical therapist were able to help me but going to a chiropractor helped me tremendously.

Many folks seek alternative medicine when traditional medicine has failed them.

A coworker of mine had really bad back issues. Physical therapy, back specialist were not able to help him after many years. The last option given to him was back surgery which may not even be able to resolve his issues. He eventually found a particular kind of acupuncturist and now is able to run and be active daily without back issues.

 

[eits]

I've walked by chiro offices that have signs on the outside which claim that regular "adjustments" are necessary for good health. Complete and utter quackery.

BTW, I'd be interested to see how chiro treatment for back pain compares to regular old physical therapy.

that research, as far as i know, is not statistically relevant. some say chiropractic care is better than physical therapy for some things dealing with pain and disability and some say it's comparable to physical therapy. i haven't found anything really saying that pt is better than chiropractic care, though. also, all the research i've seen have shown that chiropractic care and pt are way better in treating low back pain and neck pain than medical intervention.