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According to Christianity, people who don't accept Jesus as their savior go to Hell?

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Part 2:
More bible verses from the Book of Genesis


Lot (2 Pet.2:7-8)] offers his daughters to a crowd of angel rapers. 19:8

Lot lied about his daughters being "virgins" in 19:8. But it was a "just and righteous" lie, intended to make them more attractive to the sex-crazed mob. 19:14

Lot's nameless wife looks back, and God turns her into a pillar of salt. 19:26

Lot and his daughters camp out in a cave for a while. The daughters get their "just and righteous" father drunk, and have sexual intercourse with him, and each conceives and bears a son (wouldn't you know it!). Just another wholesome family values Bible story. 19:30-38

Honest Abe does the same "she's my sister" routine again, for the same cowardly reason. And once again, the king just couldn't resist Sarah -- even though by now she is over 90 years old. (See Gen.12:13-20 for the first, nearly identical, episode.) 20:2

"The Lord visited Sarah" and he "did unto Sarah as he had spoken." And "Sarah conceived and bare Abraham a son." (God-assisted conceptions never result in daughters.) 21:1-2

These verses suggest that Ishmael was an infant when his father abandoned him, yet according to Gen.17:25 and Gen.21:5-8 he must have been about 16 years old. It must have been tough for poor Hagar to carry Ishmael on her shoulder and to then "cast him under one of the shrubs." 21:14-18

Abraham names the place where he nearly kills Isaac after Jehovah. But according to Exodus 6:3, Abraham couldn't have known that God's name was Jehovah. 22:14

God swears to himself. 22:16

Abraham needed God's help to father Isaac when he was 100 years old (Gen.21:1-2, Rom.4:19, Heb.11:12). But here, when he is even older, he manages to have six more children without any help from God. 25:2

Abraham lived to be 175 years old. 25:7

Ishmael lived 137 years. 25:17

"She was barren."
In the Bible it's always the woman that are "barren", never the men. And when God "opens their womb," the resulting babies are always little boys. 25:21-26

Esau and Jacob were already fighting each other in the womb. 25:22

Esau sold his birthright to Jacob for a bit of bread and a bowl of lentil soup. 25:33-34

Isaac uses the same "she's my sister" lie that his father used so effectively on the same king Abimelech. (see Gen.12:13, 20:2). 26:7

Jacob names Bethel for the first time, before meeting Rachel. Later in 35:15, just before Rachel dies, he names Bethel again. (And it was called Bethel long before it was named Bethel in 12:8 and 13:3.) 28:19

Jacob is tricked by Laban, the father of Rachel and Leah. Jacob asks for Rachel so that he can "go in unto her." But Laban gives him Leah instead, and Jacob "went in unto her [Leah]" by mistake. Jacob was fooled until morning -- apparently he didn't know who he was going in unto. Finally they worked things out and Jacob got to "go in unto" Rachel, too. 29:21-30

Jacob goes in unto Leah by mistake. 29:23, 25

"And Jacob went in unto her. And Bilhah conceived, and bare Jacob a son." (These arrangements never seem to produce daughters.) 30:4

Leah, not to be outdone, gives Jacob her maid (Zilpah) "to wife." And Zilpah "bare Jacob a son." 30:9

Rachel trades her husband's favors for some mandrakes. And so, when Jacob cam home, Leah said: "Thou must come in unto me, for surely I have hired thee with my son's mandrakes. And he lay with her that night." Presumably God, by telling us this edifying story, is teaching us something about sexual ethics. 30:15-16

And finally, "God remembered Rachel ... and opened her womb. And she conceived and bare a son [surprise, surprise]." 30:22

Laban learns "by experience" that God has blessed him for Jacob's sake. "By experience" means "by divination", at least that is how most other versions translate this verse. 30:27
 
To me the concept of Omnipotent God and Benevolent God are incompatible. That's ulmimately what pushed me over the edge from Christian to Atheist.

If God can stop, but tolerates, acute innocent human suffering, he is not benevolent. If he cannot stop it, he is not omnipotent.

Very simple.
 
Lets say you put in front of an average man two suitcases and tell him that he can have one. You show him exactly what is in each suitcase. In one, there's nothing. In the other, there's $1 million dollars.

Now, just because you know with certainty which suitcase the man is going to pick (the one with the money), doesn't mean that his choice to pick the suitcase isn't free.

His choice is entirely dependent on the interaction between himself and his environment during his life up to that point. If one were to know all the factors of his life and how to analyze them they could predict his every action, including those that he feels are choices that he made of his own free will. If that is true, then he really had no choice whether he felt he did or not.

A better analogy is that we're the equivalent of a sentient train that is under the impression that it is "choosing" to go where it is going despite not being able to see the rails it rides on or to comprehend a choice that might take it off of them.
 
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To me the concept of Omnipotent God and Benevolent God are incompatible. That's ulmimately what pushed me over the edge from Christian to Atheist.

If God can stop, but tolerates, acute innocent human suffering, he is not benevolent. If he cannot stop it, he is not omnipotent.

Very simple.

That's a great way to put it.
 
So you want God to force everyone to his will?

If humans have no adversity they can not grow or learn anything.

It was man that choose the fruit of knowledge of Good and Evil. You have to have both Good and Evil to have any good. Otherwise you would have no choice at all. God allows the Good and the Evil so we can learn to choose the Good. Some people choose the Evil. God has to allow both. Without both we could not have growth or personal development.

One way is to think that God Allows the Evil, but there must be opposition in all things. This is the nature of the world that we live in. We can not violate the laws of nature. On the other hand you could say it is the Devil that is the evil force in the world. So we can choose not to follow God and follow the Satan.

So are you following Satan or just not following either one?

Denying God may be following Satan!

There must be opposition in all things.
 
His choice is entirely dependent on the interaction between himself and his environment during his life up to that point. If one were to know all the factors of his life and how to analyze them they could predict his every action, including those that he feels are choices that he made of his own free will. If that is true, then he really had no choice whether he felt he did or not.

It goes even deeper than that. If you knew the state of every single atom on Earth and where and how the energy of the sun is being absorbed, then you'd be able to calculate all past and future events on Earth.
 
You have to have both Good and Evil to have any good.

That right there is wrong and serves to undermine your post. Good CAN exist without evil in the christian religion. Otherwise, God couldn't have existed before creation without evil.

God created evil specifically so adam and eve would fall. The bible says god knows us better than we know ourselves and knows us before we're born. He knew adam and eve would sin but he created sin and created them anyway.

What does that say about your loving god?
 
So you want God to force everyone to his will?

If humans have no adversity they can not grow or learn anything.

It was man that choose the fruit of knowledge of Good and Evil. You have to have both Good and Evil to have any good. Otherwise you would have no choice at all. God allows the Good and the Evil so we can learn to choose the Good. Some people choose the Evil. God has to allow both. Without both we could not have growth or personal development.

One way is to think that God Allows the Evil, but there must be opposition in all things. This is the nature of the world that we live in. We can not violate the laws of nature. On the other hand you could say it is the Devil that is the evil force in the world. So we can choose not to follow God and follow the Satan.

So are you following Satan or just not following either one?

Denying God may be following Satan!

There must be opposition in all things.

I don't remember that tree or picking/eating from it. I have no Responsibility for that action.
 
Science fail. You believe in gravity because you can test it. You may not understand it, but obviously you can predict what will happen using the understood theory of gravity. Thus science.

You believe in air, again because it is testable, (and yes) visible. You can see air if you really wanted to, it is a collection of particles. You can test the theory that we need air by locking yourself in an air tight bottle and removing all the air.

You believe in god for one reason. Someone at some point told you to and you trust them. Maybe you trust them because you were a child and things told to children tend to stick with them. Maybe you were an addict and you needed some kind of reason to shift blame. Maybe it was because you simply don't want the responsibility of fixing your own life. I don't know why. But you can't test it. Instead, you come up with weak ass reason to convince yourself. You get 'feelings', or 'warm and fuzzys' about it. No different then any other human coping mechanism.

You can't create theories about what god will do, there is no consistency, no reasoning, no science. God has no more validity then I do when I say I am all powerful and all knowing. All the excuses his followers make for him work for me as well.

The problem for me however is not that people believe in silly imaginary things, it's what they extrapolate from those beliefs and then try to impose on the world. They hold back the rest of the world from being better. They create wars over nothing, and they hurt humanity as a whole. My belief is that if I am wrong and god does exist, then he must truly be evil.

Actually, you cannot see air, only particles suspended briefly in the air (pollution, dust, etc). You can see the effect of air movement when wind blows. Same as you can see the effect of gravity, but not gravity itself. All I was trying to point out is that faith is the belief in that which you cannot see. You can predict how things will happen in science, only to the extent that you understand that science, and as history has shown, over and over again, much of what we understand as "truth" may only be a limitation of our own knowledge. Even Einstein understood that much of his theory of relativity could be wrong, and some scientists believe that that theory will someday be proven incorrect. Just because I cannot devise a science experiment that proves the existence of God does not mean that I have failed in proving his existence......only that I don't understand (and, I believe, am not meant to understand) him enough to be able to prove it. No failure, imho.

I believe because I choose to believe. Not because someone told me I should, or because I want to use it as a cop-out or excuse for my behavior. Just the same as people believe in the theory of evolution, even though there's never been a shred of evidence of the so-called "missing link" that needs to exist to prove their theory. They point to minor evolutionary changes and say that it proves that we came from monkeys. In the past few decades, this unproven theory has suddenly become "fact" to many people, even though they have yet to prove it. Just the same as they believe in their "god" (evolution), I believe in mine, the Christian God.

And I agree with you that people have screwed up, over and over again, by using their religion to do things to other people, all in the name of God. You might also go back and read my original post, where I said that religion screws up what should be a simple idea of faith in God. That's why I tell people that I have faith, but don't believe in religion. I've heard too many people say that their religion is the one true religion, and everyone else has it wrong. Shoot, it wasn't even a year ago that the pope, head of the Catholic RELIGION, said that if you weren't Catholic, you weren't a Christian! 🙄

Everyone will have to answer for their life's actions some day, in my set of beliefs. You, me, the guy that replies to this thread after me, the pope..... EVERYONE. I often times wonder how much God will be shaking his head as people try vainly to explain the actions they took throughout their lives, especially those that use the "I was a good person" excuse. And I'm quite certain that there will be quite a few people that did some really bad things, all in the name of God, that will be quite surprised when their day of reckoning comes.

Until then, I'll continue believing what I want, you'll believe what you want, and hopefully we'll both be happy in our beliefs. All I ask is that those who don't want to believe as I do respect my beliefs (the same as I will theirs), and not try to arrogantly look down their nose at me as some misdirected moron with no imagination of my own. Perhaps someday we'll find out who's correct about all this.
 
Actually, you cannot see air, only particles suspended briefly in the air (pollution, dust, etc). You can see the effect of air movement when wind blows. Same as you can see the effect of gravity, but not gravity itself. All I was trying to point out is that faith is the belief in that which you cannot see. You can predict how things will happen in science, only to the extent that you understand that science, and as history has shown, over and over again, much of what we understand as "truth" may only be a limitation of our own knowledge. Even Einstein understood that much of his theory of relativity could be wrong, and some scientists believe that that theory will someday be proven incorrect. Just because I cannot devise a science experiment that proves the existence of God does not mean that I have failed in proving his existence......only that I don't understand (and, I believe, am not meant to understand) him enough to be able to prove it. No failure, imho.

I believe because I choose to believe. Not because someone told me I should, or because I want to use it as a cop-out or excuse for my behavior. Just the same as people believe in the theory of evolution, even though there's never been a shred of evidence of the so-called "missing link" that needs to exist to prove their theory. They point to minor evolutionary changes and say that it proves that we came from monkeys. In the past few decades, this unproven theory has suddenly become "fact" to many people, even though they have yet to prove it. Just the same as they believe in their "god" (evolution), I believe in mine, the Christian God.

And I agree with you that people have screwed up, over and over again, by using their religion to do things to other people, all in the name of God. You might also go back and read my original post, where I said that religion screws up what should be a simple idea of faith in God. That's why I tell people that I have faith, but don't believe in religion. I've heard too many people say that their religion is the one true religion, and everyone else has it wrong. Shoot, it wasn't even a year ago that the pope, head of the Catholic RELIGION, said that if you weren't Catholic, you weren't a Christian! 🙄

Everyone will have to answer for their life's actions some day, in my set of beliefs. You, me, the guy that replies to this thread after me, the pope..... EVERYONE. I often times wonder how much God will be shaking his head as people try vainly to explain the actions they took throughout their lives, especially those that use the "I was a good person" excuse. And I'm quite certain that there will be quite a few people that did some really bad things, all in the name of God, that will be quite surprised when their day of reckoning comes.

Until then, I'll continue believing what I want, you'll believe what you want, and hopefully we'll both be happy in our beliefs. All I ask is that those who don't want to believe as I do respect my beliefs (the same as I will theirs), and not try to arrogantly look down their nose at me as some misdirected moron with no imagination of my own. Perhaps someday we'll find out who's correct about all this.

You believe in the Christian god because you were taught to believe in him and you are blindly following what you were taught because you don't know any better.
 
It just seems extraordinarily stupid to me that a religion can believe a totally immoral person has a chance to go to heaven if they accept Jesus on their deathbed, but that a person who has lived an utterly moral life, say a Buddhist monk is going to burn in hell for eternity.

This is why religions all just look like large cults to me.
 
Wow, this thread has seriously derailed. Didn't want to get dragged into this but seeing as how it's still on the front page, I'll throw in my 2 cents/thoughts on Christianity.

Right off the bat, I'll acknowledge that religion is a very divisive force in the world-- it tends to lead to pride rather than humbleness, and is very easy to twist to serve selfish means. Examples of this are readily apparent throughout history-- The Roman adoption of the Christian faith, the power-games of the medieval catholic church, etc. The mission of the Church was never supposed to be the consolidation of power or acquisition of wealth.

Here's my take though: All of us have fundamental, unprovable faith-commitments we think are superior to others. The real question (in my mind) then becomes: Which set of unavoidably exclusive beliefs will lead us to humble, peace-following, justice-seeking behavior? Obviously, these things are not something everyone strives for, but I'm in college, so I'm an idealist (I know, I'm young and stupid). God/Christ cannot be personally relevant to me unless he is first globally relevant.

Now, you can't skip over the fact that tremendous injustice has been done in the name of the Church, but you (rather I, personally) cannot deny that Christianity's most fundamental beliefs can be a powerful source of (what I define as) good as well. When I read the Bible, I see a God who seeks justice, comforts the oppressed, cares about the environment, has a heart for the poor, celebrates diversity, and demands his followers to do the same. As a globally conscious, socially concerned, and civically active college student, I find comfort in this when tackling issues of injustice. I guess it's a crutch. But is that such a bad thing?

Gandhi once said: "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." In my mind, that is the real tragedy, not the beliefs of the faith itself. Again, that's just my 2c. This thread is already 10 pages long, and I have no interest in debating theology. There's no real "gotcha" question either way, and has anyone seriously changed their life-beliefs as a result of an online flamewar? This isn't even a conversation, it's just people yelling at each other.
 
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No idea what other folks POV is but this is from a Catholic POV:

If you have not heard of the Church, for instance in a third world country and you die in a state of good you will go to Heaven. The same goes for people who grow up Jewish, Muslim and any other religion.

There are many other clauses to consider but another major one is baptism of blood. If you die without being baptized and you have the desire to go through the process it is called baptism by blood.

For all those who continue to reject the church and they have full knowledge of its existence the Church leaves it up to God. Anyone who intentionally lives a immoral/bad life they will pretty much go.... well you know.
 
Thing I question most about Christianity, and what I imagine most Christians have to question most, is how ordinary it is. If you take a step back and look at your place in history, and see how many different religions there have been and are, and how Christianity became yours (through its spread into Europe, Costantine, the Roman Catholic church, etc) and how it is just another historical story/accident, how can you really believe the far-fetched story in the Bible are true?

Then you take a step further, and look at the universe, and see how your role as an intelligent organism living in a society that created countless religions and how yours became dominant through a historical accident on some meaningless planet floating in a deep void of space.. and you think its all the one truth? How you got lucky enough to be that organism born into knowing what the real deal was? Kang and Kodos, whatever they came up with, got screwed?

I was raised Catholic and think religion is useful, I'd probably bring my kids to church if I ever had them and act like a Catholic until they were 18, but I can't really bring myself to buy into any of it.

mind if i do a j
 
Wow, this thread has seriously derailed. Didn't want to get dragged into this but seeing as how it's still on the front page, I'll throw in my 2 cents/thoughts on Christianity.

Right off the bat, I'll acknowledge that religion is a very divisive force in the world-- it tends to lead to pride rather than humbleness, and is very easy to twist to serve selfish means. Examples of this are readily apparent throughout history-- The Roman adoption of the Christian faith, the power-games of the medieval catholic church, etc. The mission of the Church was never supposed to be the consolidation of power or acquisition of wealth.

Here's my take though: All of us have fundamental, unprovable faith-commitments we think are superior to others. The real question (in my mind) then becomes: Which set of unavoidably exclusive beliefs will lead us to humble, peace-following, justice-seeking behavior? Obviously, these things are not something everyone strives for, but I'm in college, so I'm an idealist (I know, I'm young and stupid). God/Christ cannot be personally relevant to me unless he is first globally relevant.

Now, you can't skip over the fact that tremendous injustice has been done in the name of the Church, but you (rather I, personally) cannot deny that Christianity's most fundamental beliefs can be a powerful source of (what I define as) good as well. When I read the Bible, I see a God who seeks justice, comforts the oppressed, cares about the environment, has a heart for the poor, celebrates diversity, and demands his followers to do the same. As a globally conscious, socially concerned, and civically active college student, I find comfort in this when tackling issues of injustice. I guess it's a crutch. But is that such a bad thing?

Gandhi once said: "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." In my mind, that is the real tragedy, not the beliefs of the faith itself. Again, that's just my 2c. This thread is already 10 pages long, and I have no interest in debating theology. There's no real "gotcha" question either way, and has anyone seriously changed their life-beliefs as a result of an online flamewar? This isn't even a conversation, it's just people yelling at each other.

Hmm I think we must have read different Bibles. The Bible is one of the most violent books ever created.
 
No idea what other folks POV is but this is from a Catholic POV:

If you have not heard of the Church, for instance in a third world country and you die in a state of good you will go to Heaven. The same goes for people who grow up Jewish, Muslim and any other religion.

There are many other clauses to consider but another major one is baptism of blood. If you die without being baptized and you have the desire to go through the process it is called baptism by blood.

For all those who continue to reject the church and they have full knowledge of its existence the Church leaves it up to God. Anyone who intentionally lives a immoral/bad life they will pretty much go.... well you know.

Do you and God talk regularly? Last time I checked, he actually said it was a sin for those other than himself to decide who goes up or down.
 
I see Christianity as one of the LEAST judgmental religions (am expecting that to be quoted out of context repeatedly and with slurs) because I don't think God uses our behavior to judge us in the least. Law of nature - we're all hellbound to begin with. God extends his offer of mercy to everyone equally. God also respects our choices; if we choose not to take him up on it he honors that decision.

Christians are the MOST judgemental religion. I grew up Christian and surrounded myself with Christian brothers and sisters. I have noticed they have the "if you're not with us, then your against us" attitude. Honestly, if Ghandhi, Dali Lama, and Bill Gates who 😛 are in or going to hell, I rather go to hell with them. I can't believe that these people who have done so much good for this world are suffering eternally.
 
Gandhi once said: "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." In my mind, that is the real tragedy, not the beliefs of the faith itself. Again, that's just my 2c. This thread is already 10 pages long, and I have no interest in debating theology. There's no real "gotcha" question either way, and has anyone seriously changed their life-beliefs as a result of an online flamewar? This isn't even a conversation, it's just people yelling at each other.

You could say that about any religion. Islam is a fairly peaceful religion, and then you have some clerics calling for the assassination of certain authors. WTF?
 
How do you explain people who do good but vehemently deny God?
From what I have learned in this thread, most likely they will go to Hell.

And why allow Satan to exist in the first place?

Not my place to question God's plan.


This is the part of Christianity that makes the least amount of sense. Why must Jesus die in order to defeat Satan? An all knowing, all powerful being (notice it's in bold) can just snap his fingers and remove Satan from existence! In fact, he doesn't even need to snap his fingers!

Jesus died to repay the debt of our sins to his Father. Defeating Satan is a natural outcome of that process. He defeated Satan's power of death when he came back to life. He received a resurrection body, one he will be in forever. This body is perfect and invulnerable. Remember that Jesus is both man and God. He's God-man.


Ok, so he defeated Satan 2000 years ago. Why did he not also get rid of sin and evil 2000 years ago?

Jesus defeated Satan. It has been done. God's plan for the new universe is in motion. For a short while, Satan is still allowed to have power over men. The time shall come quickly when that will not be true anymore.
 
You believe in the Christian god because you were taught to believe in him and you are blindly following what you were taught because you don't know any better.


Um, NO. I was never "taught" to believe in God. I wasn't raised going to a church, so didn't have the religious dogma stuffed down my throat. My parents were very relaxed about the whole thing, and encouraged all 4 of their kids to have an open mind about things. We had a "children's bible" that we were free to read.....or not.....whichever we wanted. I've attended services in various Christian churches, but never felt as though any of them had it right, since (like I said in my original post), they all tend to suffer from the "we're right and they're all wrong" short-sightedness. I know the basic ideas of the other major religious faiths, so I'm not blind to their teachings.

As far as blindly following my religion, I've already discussed that faith is believing in what you cannot see or touch. So if believing in the Christian God is blindly following His teachings, then you're correct in that regard. But to say I do so because I don't know better is just dead wrong. Like everyone else, I have the God-given choice to believe in what I want..... just like you.
 
I see Christianity as one of the LEAST judgmental religions (am expecting that to be quoted out of context repeatedly and with slurs) because I don't think God uses our behavior to judge us in the least. Law of nature - we're all hellbound to begin with. God extends his offer of mercy to everyone equally. God also respects our choices; if we choose not to take him up on it he honors that decision.

This isn't out of context i hope?

I can't accept it, my brain wasn't made in a way that makes it possible to accept any of it and believe you me, i was raised with it and to even pretend i believed it would have been a smarter choice for me but i couldn't even do that.

Law of nature, we are here, that is it, it's not strange and you can touch, feel and see it, you can measure it if you'd like to.

I was born this way, to reject any notion of something that i cannot possibly find truth in by observing it or at least reason from someone who has.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeoQAjwzCz4

😉
 
Christians view heaven/hell like a natural law. When asked if I think nonbelievers are going to hell, it's like asking me if I think someone who jumps off a building is going to hit the ground. The answer is yes whether I want it to be or not. From my viewpoint I'm not judgmental in my answer, I'm just stating a fact.

Let's be specific. "Nonbelievers" in this context, as stated by Rolo, means everyone who's a nonbeliever in Jesus Christ even though they may believe in God and live their entire lives in accordance to their understanding and love of God.

Completing your analogy, God's "natural law" in your imagination is that people are born falling off a building, and God shrugs: It's the law that I gotta make 'em that way. People who are born into a Christian culture are however much better equipped for some reason to not go splat at the end.

I don't think God uses our behavior to judge us in the least. Law of nature - we're all hellbound to begin with. God extends his offer of mercy to everyone equally. God also respects our choices; if we choose not to take him up on it he honors that decision.

Well of course, going splat at the end is not enough for your theology, you have to add eternal torment to that. And it's the law. Can't do anything about that, and there ain't no court of appeals.

I can't judge any non-believers; God gave everyone free will and it isn't my place to try to take that away from anyone. People who call themselves believers though, THEY place themselves under accountability from other believers, and I have an obligation to try to correct them when I see them off base.

Try applying that idea to yourself, and you might see that your own theology could take a boatload of improvement; that you might not have the easy pass to heaven you'd like to imagine.

Just have to add, I have absolutely nothing against anyone of any religion or lack thereof. I absolutely 100% respect everyone's right to believe what they believe. I don't want to see ANYONE go to hell, and so believing what I believe makes me sad quite often.

Nonsense. You don't really care about others, so don't really mind supporting a shallow "theology" in which everyone who doesn't subscribe to your petty self-centered religious beliefs is automatically condemned to eternal torment. Eternal torment. Eternal torment. Eternal torment. If you did, and loved God more, you'd reject and not promote such shallow self-serving propaganda and think deeper about the subject.
 
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