And those men are still wrong. Look, just because you don't know your own future doesn't mean your future hasn't already been spelled out. Thus the choices you make seem free only to you alone. Before Hitler, Stalin, Mao etc. were even born, God already knew what these people were going to do. That is not free will.
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According to Christianity, people who don't accept Jesus as their savior go to Hell?
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And those men are still wrong. Look, just because you don't know your own future doesn't mean your future hasn't already been spelled out. Thus the choices you make seem free only to you alone. Before Hitler, Stalin, Mao etc. were even born, God already knew what these people were going to do. That is not free will.
Juddog
Diamond Member
The passage that "is right there" doesn't say what you think it says. You just took the passage, twisted it in some weird way to make it reinforce what you said, then presented it to us. I asked to show a passage that backed up what you said, not a passage of something else that you twist around.
Jeff7
Lifer
Religion: Humanity's egg tooth.
Again, this goes against free will. If God is indeed the source of all goodness, then really, good people are just inherently bad people who have been manipulated to be good. Where is the free will in that?
Or he's someone with a good name trying to stir up the masses using a different avatar, but doesn't want to sully his main avatar. I know people who've done that before *cough*dennilfloss*cough*
RoloMather
Golden Member
What you said is true. It can happen to any religion and belief. If you got the wrong one, "Sorry pal."
But I'm not scared because I have faith in God, the creator of the universe. I have faith that He knows what's the best course for man.
Primarily, I trust Jesus, I believe in his divinity and believe he would not let people who love him suffer.
I'm also not scared because I believe God has helped me in some life situations. I have personal proof that God exists. Perhaps my proof wouldn't convince you that God exists, but it sure convinces me.
RoloMather
Golden Member
sourceninja
Diamond Member
Why is it god gets all the credit for anything I do to help people, but none of the credit for anything bad that happens.
If God was all-powerful and all-loving, with free will yet perfectly good, God would create life with similar properties: with free will and perfectly good. Meaning that there would be no human-created evil, and no need for evil, suffering or death in the world in any way. However, there is evil and death in very great quantities, therefore it holds that if the situation was created by a god, rather than natural forces, then such a god is not omnipotent and benevolent. Given that such a god exists, it must be malevolent: An evil god, who created life for the sole purpose of watching life suffer.
If God was evil, it would definitely convince the weak-minded amongst us that it loves them. That's exactly what an evil God would do! In fact, it would make believing that this is true as one of the cornerstones of its teachings! Like the totalitarian government of George Orwell's 1984, like the Fascist governments of history, and like the leadership of every inhuman cult leader... get the followers to believe that the figurehead loves them, and they'll bend to your will! A pure evil God would boast about love, forgiveness, and compassion! And, being very powerful, an evil God would be convincing, too.
An evil God would create a beautiful, perfect, fabulous heaven, and then not let anyone go there. It would tell people *about* the heaven, and tell people that they *can* get there, but in reality there would only be hell and eternal suffering. It might even create human forms of itself (Jesus, Muhammad, etc) and go around preaching about heaven, in order to tease Humanity even more, and increase our suffering.
Religions that fight each other tend to make their adherents believe in them even more strongly! Group solidarity comes into effect... when you have enemies, you keep closer grip on your friends and reinforce your own group identity more. So, an evil God would appear to mankind in a variety of guises and preach a number of powerful, but conflicting, religions. It would therefore create maximum confusion, and maximum suffering, through war and intolerance. It would preach to each religion that its followers were right and other followers were wrong! That way, most of the weak, inferior, pathetic people that the evil god creates would fall foul of one religion or another, and be duped! Once duped, they'd cling to the lies even more the stronger because of the existence of competing religions! An evil God, indeed, would do this, and this is exactly the state the world is in. Coincidence? If there is a God, it is surely evil!
The existence of such large quantities of suffering, despair, pain, of natural disasters such as earthquakes, of the death of the unborn and the immense suffering of lovers & kind-hearted people means that god is evil and intentionally creates life in order to create suffering. That all life exists in a food chain means that life is completely tied to death, and such a barbaric biological cycle could only have been made by an evil god. Also, that such a god appears not to exist, or actively hides itself, is a source of confusion, conflict, war and stress and is again more likely the antics of an evil god. Given the state of the natural world, it is impossible that a good god exists. It is more likely that an evil god exists, but, it is sensible to assume that there is no god of either type.
http://www.dpjs.co.uk/god.html
It's sad when even Satanists make more sense...
If God was all-powerful and all-loving, with free will yet perfectly good, God would create life with similar properties: with free will and perfectly good. Meaning that there would be no human-created evil, and no need for evil, suffering or death in the world in any way. However, there is evil and death in very great quantities, therefore it holds that if the situation was created by a god, rather than natural forces, then such a god is not omnipotent and benevolent. Given that such a god exists, it must be malevolent: An evil god, who created life for the sole purpose of watching life suffer.
If God was evil, it would definitely convince the weak-minded amongst us that it loves them. That's exactly what an evil God would do! In fact, it would make believing that this is true as one of the cornerstones of its teachings! Like the totalitarian government of George Orwell's 1984, like the Fascist governments of history, and like the leadership of every inhuman cult leader... get the followers to believe that the figurehead loves them, and they'll bend to your will! A pure evil God would boast about love, forgiveness, and compassion! And, being very powerful, an evil God would be convincing, too.
An evil God would create a beautiful, perfect, fabulous heaven, and then not let anyone go there. It would tell people *about* the heaven, and tell people that they *can* get there, but in reality there would only be hell and eternal suffering. It might even create human forms of itself (Jesus, Muhammad, etc) and go around preaching about heaven, in order to tease Humanity even more, and increase our suffering.
Religions that fight each other tend to make their adherents believe in them even more strongly! Group solidarity comes into effect... when you have enemies, you keep closer grip on your friends and reinforce your own group identity more. So, an evil God would appear to mankind in a variety of guises and preach a number of powerful, but conflicting, religions. It would therefore create maximum confusion, and maximum suffering, through war and intolerance. It would preach to each religion that its followers were right and other followers were wrong! That way, most of the weak, inferior, pathetic people that the evil god creates would fall foul of one religion or another, and be duped! Once duped, they'd cling to the lies even more the stronger because of the existence of competing religions! An evil God, indeed, would do this, and this is exactly the state the world is in. Coincidence? If there is a God, it is surely evil!
The existence of such large quantities of suffering, despair, pain, of natural disasters such as earthquakes, of the death of the unborn and the immense suffering of lovers & kind-hearted people means that god is evil and intentionally creates life in order to create suffering. That all life exists in a food chain means that life is completely tied to death, and such a barbaric biological cycle could only have been made by an evil god. Also, that such a god appears not to exist, or actively hides itself, is a source of confusion, conflict, war and stress and is again more likely the antics of an evil god. Given the state of the natural world, it is impossible that a good god exists. It is more likely that an evil god exists, but, it is sensible to assume that there is no god of either type.
http://www.dpjs.co.uk/god.html
It's sad when even Satanists make more sense...
RoloMather
Golden Member
Lets say you put in front of an average man two suitcases and tell him that he can have one. You show him exactly what is in each suitcase. In one, there's nothing. In the other, there's $1 million dollars.
Now, just because you know with certainty which suitcase the man is going to pick (the one with the money), doesn't mean that his choice to pick the suitcase isn't free.
Now, just because you know with certainty which suitcase the man is going to pick (the one with the money), doesn't mean that his choice to pick the suitcase isn't free.
That doesn't make those choices free though. True free will and the illusion of free will are not the same thing.
RoloMather
Golden Member
sourceninja
Diamond Member
No that's not valid.
Same wager, only this time tell him if he doesn't take the empty one that you've heard rumors that a guy somewhere in the world might rape him in the ass and kill his children. But it's only a rumor and you've never actually seen any proof it's happened.
RoloMather
Golden Member
God is the source of good and should get credit for good things he does using you.
You cannot be forced to be perfectly good (read: follow God) and have free will. Free will is chiefly related to the most important choice you have to make, whether to follow God or not. After that choice is made, then he can make you into perfectly good creatures because you freely choose to let him in your life.
Death is a product of the Curse on man and the Earth. Death is Satan's power. By defeating death, Jesus defeated Satan. In the final Heaven, New Earth, there is no death or evil.
God cannot be evil. Evil and sin is by definition what God dislikes. An evil God cannot exist.
Completely false. Jesus explained this already. Satan cannot fight himself.
An Evil god cannot exist. Pure speculation on reality.
Pure speculation.
You assume that our life right now is what God created. But Christianity teaches that our suffering is because of the Fall and the Curse. Satan caused all those things. God will defeat Satan and remove all suffering from creation.
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Again, lack of free will because of manipulation to do good.
Also by definition, if there is no evil, there is also no good.
The corollary is that a good God would just throw everyone into heaven automatically.
Ok, so why doesn't God defeat Satan now? Why didn't he defeat Satan a thousand years ago. Look God, being an all powerful all knowing entity, knew Satan would come around and do these things. Why even allow Satan to come into existence?
sourceninja
Diamond Member
Bullshit, you said so yourself. I have free will. Thus god doesn't make me do anything. I don't believe in him, I do nothing in his name. I am god damn evil by definition. So when I help some one in need, god played no part. Otherwise, I have no free will.
You stated god is perfectly good. Thus god has no free will. Thus god is not all powerful.
Prove it?
See free will argument. If god can not be evil, then god does not have free will. Thus god is not all powerful. Plus, how do you know god is good? You only know because said so (though man). Can you trust god? Can you trust man? What evidence do you have that leads you to trust someone you never met? If I told you I knew a guy who was trust worthy, and you didn't know me, would you lend my friend money?
Can you prove jesus lived? Can you show me why I should trust that Jesus was not a agent of evil with evil powers (like the magus in the bible who could fly).
Can you prove heaven exists? Maybe the evil god never made heaven, he just promises it's there. He watches us struggle to achieve a goal we can never reach and it makes him happy. Do you have any evidence contrary to that?
How did they decrease our suffering? Name one thing jesus did that helps me as a human today, besides promise I can go to heaven. Just one. You can't, all he did is tell you how to get to heaven. Nothing else.
God has had an forever to defeat satan. He is also all powerful. What is keeping him? He can only be 100% good, would a 100% good being allow evil to exists and continue to corrupt all that around it? Why are the children responsible for the sins of their parents? It is good that god thinks a new born baby is just as horrible and sinful as a mass murder who has never heard of christianity?
The facts dont' add up. The story doesn't make sense. Had you not been indoctrinated at a moment of weakness in your life you would not believe it. Why don't you believe the version of events I posted? Because even that makes no sense. Because the whole concept is flawed and unprovable.
"I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7)
Why does god create disaster? What good purpose could killing millions of innocent people (babies, children, mentally ill, etc) can you give me? God is the bringer of death. Death is satan by your own words. God is Satan then. Your god either does not exist, or is evil.
Deal with it.
The immoral doctrine of original sin, where children are punished for the sins of their parents is hardly the scheme of a moral god. Adam and Eve were punished with death, pain, suffering and caused the evil of all mankind... yet they themselves 'sinned' before they knew the difference between Good and Evil. God must be immoral, if it punishes innocent people for sins they do not understand and could not resist.
http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/christianity_evilgod.html
RoloMather
Golden Member
Like I said, free will is chiefly involved in choosing to follow God or not. Everything else free will allows is just a bonus.
God is good and the only self existent being. Therefore there can be good without evil.
That was and is his plan for mankind! But Satan corrupted man, causing man to sin.
Heaven is defined as the dwelling place of God. God, by the nature of his perfect goodness, does not allow sin to be in his presence. Since man is fallen and under the Curse, we automatically go to Hell when we die.
That's why God sent his only son, Jesus (who is also God), to Earth. By his death and resurrection Jesus defeated Satan, sin, and is able to redeem all of man who accepts his gift.
He already defeated Satan 2000 years ago. God is now just waiting in order for people to get the opportunity to know him and accept him. Soon he will come and rid this universe of sin and evil.
child of wonder
Diamond Member
How do you explain people who do good but vehemently deny God?
And why allow Satan to exist in the first place?
This is the part of Christianity that makes the least amount of sense. Why must Jesus die in order to defeat Satan? An all knowing, all powerful being (notice it's in bold) can just snap his fingers and remove Satan from existence! In fact, he doesn't even need to snap his fingers!
Ok, so he defeated Satan 2000 years ago. Why did he not also get rid of sin and evil 2000 years ago?
sourceninja
Diamond Member
If satan is defeated, then why is new evil always appearing. Why doesn't god take those who have accepted him to heaven now? As soon as you accept him, you are redeemed, and thus you should go to heaven without death (death is satan remember). Yet everyone for thousand of years is dying, many devote religious people die in horrible horrible ways. Yet god doesn't appear to give a shit.
The whole thing again makes no sense and is bunk. How does sending jesus to earth to die redeem all humans? What did I do to deserve to be condemned to hell at birth? How did adam and eve who did not know the difference between right and wrong, good and evil, know that disobeying god just once was complete and utter damnation? How did god not know they would be tricked into eating the apple?
Most importantly and never answered....
Why was the tree of knowledge placed in the garden of eden in the first place? There is only one reason, god wanted man to eat it. He wanted us to fail, he wanted to condem us all to hell. He is all knowing and all powerful. He chose to put it there, he knew satan existed, he knew satan would trick us into eating it. It's his own god damn fault.
See, it doesn't make any sense.
child of wonder
Diamond Member
sourceninja
Diamond Member
Pure Genius. I love it.
Juddog
Diamond Member
You still have not faced the paradox: If god knows everything, then obviously there is no free will. Going by your statements then, god is definitely not all knowing.
God is good and the only self existent being. Therefore there can be good without evil.
If god is all knowing, then god created Satan knowing exactly what he would do. Therefore God created Satan on purpose as an extension of itself. Everything that Satan does, therefore, is directly because of God's will. Therefore Satan = god.
God created sin, so why would he not allow sin in his presence? He also forgives all those priests who molest children, seems like he likes sinners to me.
Prove Satan is defeated. If Satan = evil, and evil still happens, then Satan is not defeated. Come on man, at least try and use some shred of logic, you're making this too easy.
Except that sin and evil still happen, therefore Satan is not defeated.
Impeccable logic at 2:05 here proving hell is a great place. 😉
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMH3MABXCzc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMH3MABXCzc
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