Absolute Proof~Stimulus is creating jobs.....

[Thump553]

Not completely true by a long stretch. The largest firm in solar is First Solar (FSLR) which is based in Tempe, Arizona. Most of their manufacturing to date is in the East, but they have some in Europe (to take advantage of European subsidies that are now expiring/lapsing). They are building a major new manufacturing plant in Ohio, in part with stimulus funds/federal loan guarantees. They are also expanding INTO China (where nearly all the other solar firms are) and my guess is they will build a plant there also before too long.

This is a company that is competing head to head against low-cost China and winning, at least so far. We, as a country, have to decide wheter to promote such growth and innovation or continue to do nothing and whine when all our jobs leave for China and beyond. Personally I think this is an ideal approach for the USA to sink its money into-it would get us off foreign oil dependence, reduce greenhouse gases and improve our industrial and employment base.

 

[TheDoc9]

Did anyone really expect anything different to come of this?

 

[HumblePie]

So wait, let me see if I got this straight.

1) Part of the proposed stimulus bill was to give money to the energy department for grants to future development of renewable energy sources to be placed in the US.

2) Stipulations initially were that the money was to go for building solar farms, wind farms, and other renewable sources in the US.

3) Money was given on good faith that corporations would use the money to create jobs in the US.

4) Private, greedy, corporations saw that they could get free money and make a killing by purchasing equipment through china and other places that make cheaper equipment. More jobs go to foreign countries than our own instead.

5) Media, and law makers finally find out and are outraged.

6) A repub makes a comment that this is all to blame on the dems.

Am I right in this assessment or did I miss something?

 

[GuitarDaddy]

As usual the truth lies somewhere between the republican and democratic talking points. To better understand you really have to seperate the two objectives of the project and understand the balance and contrasts between the two.
1. Increase green energy production to reduce dependence on fossil fuels
2. Create jobs by building green energy infastructure

The republicans will claim that the administration deceived by hyping and promising #2 as the cornerstone and justification for the project then failed to deliver. The dems will claim as HumblePie did that the intentions were good but the greedy companies took the money and outsourced the jobs. Both of which are partially true but dont tell the whole story.

Yes the administration overhyped the positive of job creation thats what polititions do, but I also think they were niave and didn't understand the realities of the industry and failed to tailor the requirements of the funding to target the funds at job creation. They just assumed if they threw money at the industry that the industry would maintain the desired balance of increasing production and creating jobs. They failed to realize that the motivation of the industry would be to funnel everything towards increasing production not jobs.

Pretty funny actually, it's like the dems took a page from the republican playbook and trusted "free market" capitalism and it bit them in the ass Just goes to show that enabling unrestriced free markets DOES NOT PROMOTE DOMESTIC JOB CREATION, it only creates opportunity for profit and as long as the regulatory climate makes it profitable to offshore jobs it actually has the reverse effect.

"Trickle down Reaganomics" has worked perfectly just as Ronnie laid it out, as we unshackled and enabled and gave tax cuts to the wealthy capitalists they created a vast array of low income working class jobs. He just forgot to tell us that those jobs would be in China

 

[HumblePie]

<snip>

The republicans will claim that the administration deceived by hyping and promising #2 as the cornerstone and justification for the project then failed to deliver. The dems will claim as HumblePie did that the intentions were good but the greedy companies took the money and outsourced the jobs. Both of which are partially true but dont tell the whole story.

<snip>

I didn't make any claims, I just made a list of the facts I read and was seeing if I got them right or if I missed anything.

Now, repubs are going to throw accusations of speculations. Such as they were so naive they are borderline retarded (well Palin would use another word), or criminally negligent, or they were doing this as a backdoor deal to get a kick back, or some other un verified and
hair brained accusation.

In what I see of the facts, I just think the dems were naive not to stipulate money was suppose to stay domestically and then enforce that.

 

[Thump553]

* * * *In what I see of the facts, I just think the dems were naive not to stipulate money was suppose to stay domestically and then enforce that.

As I recall a buy domestic amendment was attempted by be written in the stimulus bill but it failed or was withdrawn after very substantial backlash, including other countries threatening to sue in international trade courts as it being an illegal tariff in violation of existing international treaties.

I still think instances like FSLR I mentioned above are the best route to go. Another one I have heard of is subsidies being used to create a new electric auto battery manufacturing plant in Michigan.

I'd think the wiser course is to fine-tune and improve this program. Throwing it out would be worse than counterproductive.

 

[StageLeft]

http://www.theonion.com/content/news/wal_mart_cuts_over_13_000_of_what

Wal-Mart Cuts Over 13,000 Of What It Calls Jobs

 

[sandorski]

http://www.theonion.com/content/news/wal_mart_cuts_over_13_000_of_what

Wal-Mart Cuts Over 13,000 Of What It Calls Jobs

 

[HumblePie]

As I recall a buy domestic amendment was attempted by be written in the stimulus bill but it failed or was withdrawn after very substantial backlash, including other countries threatening to sue in international trade courts as it being an illegal tariff in violation of existing international treaties.

I still think instances like FSLR I mentioned above are the best route to go. Another one I have heard of is subsidies being used to create a new electric auto battery manufacturing plant in Michigan.

I'd think the wiser course is to fine-tune and improve this program. Throwing it out would be worse than counterproductive.

So wait then, they did or didn't try to stipulate? If they did and got shot down, who's fault is it then? Government or corporate?

 

[Thump553]

I'm not sure what you mean, HumblePie. The buy American provision was part of the stimulus bill that passed the House, due to great outcry by foreign trading partners (and US industries that rely on exports) the Senate greatly watered down that provision in what was finally passed. Whose fault? I don't know-maybe the 37-38 GOP senators that refused to vote for any sort of stimulus bill regardless of what it provided, thus making the demands of marginal senators all that much more powerful. Should we have not had a stimulus bill at all instead of a flawed one? Given the nature of representative govenment (in fact, probably the nature of humanity) it is totally unrealistic to expect to wait for a "perfect" piece of legislation. Isn't ever going to happen. So to summarize-some government wanted buy American, some didn't, and ditto for corporations.

 

[GuitarDaddy]

And no matter how strictly the government trys to control this, companies always seem to find a way to work around the restrictions. My current company sells and repairs heavy machinery most of which is made in other countries, to circumvent the "buy american" regs for our government contract customers we have fully engineered and fabricated unassembled machines shipped here in a crate so we can spend an hour bolting it together and call it "american made". At my last job with a pharm company we did the same thing by having compounded vats of medicine shipped here where we filled it into containers and called it "american made"

And any attempt to close these loopholes is met with the full wrath of the elites who profit from offshoring

Our politicans on both sides of the aisle have become very adept at fashioning placebo legeslation that appeases public opinion and gives the impression that they are making a fundamental change, yet they build in loopholes you could drive a train through that allows the same transgretions in a slightly different way fulfilling their obligations to their corporate masters.

 

[daniel49]

Ipods to the parents of disabled children for filling out a 10 min survey. The district wants to know how well it's connecting with the parents. $350K could hire a couple more teachers or purchase teaching/learning tools, imo.
http://www.baynews9.com/content/36/2010/2/10/581592.html

obamanomics 101

 

[GuitarDaddy]

obamanomics 101

^^ DumbassSemantics 101

Stupid deragatory onliner qwips are so 2008, and so deliciously republican

 

[Chunkee]

My main disappointment have been for the direct GM and Chrysler bailouts.

GM has built 4 plants and Chrysler just announced another plant that will all be outside of the nation.

It seems they are shipping jobs over the border despite the US saving their asses.

Hmm...seems a bit odd..they outsource and get handouts...

 

[bfdd]

Where can I get me some stimulus money?

 

[brencat]

2) Stipulations initially were that the money was to go for building solar farms, wind farms, and other renewable sources in the US.

3) Money was given on good faith that corporations would use the money to create jobs in the US.

4) Private, greedy, corporations saw that they could get free money and make a killing by purchasing equipment through china and other places that make cheaper equipment. More jobs go to foreign countries than our own instead.

If #3 above was indeed true, then the administration erred by not stipulating that a majority (i.e. 50? 75%? whatever) of jobs or money spent must go toward helping American industry. Of course, if they had put that clause in, there would have been complaints from multinational companies about "pro-American" favoritism, blah blah. But this is such a joke. 6000 jobs in China and a dozen here. If it wasn't so sad, it would almost be funny how govt manages to screw up just about everything it touches.

And of course, companies are going to do what is best for their bottom line if the rules in this case don't specify how many/what percentage/what type of U.S. jobs there should be.

 

[Kntx]

Other nations invested in their green power industries years ago while the US was giving tax credits to oil companies. Wonder why there is no manufacturing?

 

[brencat]

Other nations invested in their green power industries years ago while the US was giving tax credits to oil companies. Wonder why there is no manufacturing?

Sweeping generalizations much? The U.S. has been losing manufacturing jobs steadily for 30+ years now. And foreign companies only invested in wind/solar because of the massive subsidies their govts provided. Look at how the profitability of solar is declining now that Germany and Spain are starting to withdraw the subsidies. It just isn't a viable alternative to fossil fuel based energy without them.

 

[Ozoned]

Here's some more evidence of how its being used to create jobs.

http://thinkprogress.org/touting-recovery-opposed/

Thanks for all of those wonderful examples of stimulus money that stayed at home. However, this thread is about the nearly $2,000,000,000 that went overseas.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Where can I get me some stimulus money?

You live in florida and have a special needs kid? I hear they are giving out ipods to the parent for taking a survey - paid for by stim funds

 

[cubeless]

Sweeping generalizations much? The U.S. has been losing manufacturing jobs steadily for 30+ years now. And foreign companies only invested in wind/solar because of the massive subsidies their govts provided. Look at how the profitability of solar is declining now that Germany and Spain are starting to withdraw the subsidies. It just isn't a viable alternative to fossil fuel based energy without them.

but we still do a bit of manufacturing after all that...

from wisegeek.com...

The world's top manufacturing country is the United States, as has been the case since before WWII. In 2007, the United States' manufacturing output was $1.831 trillion US Dollars (USD). This is about 12% of the USA's entire GDP (Gross Domestic Product), or $12,206 USD for every person in the 150 million-strong labor force. Still, the USA's output per capita is not the world's greatest among manufacturing countries -- that honor goes to Japan. Important goods manufactured in the United States include, in order of percentage of exports in 2007: production machinery and equipment, 31.4%; industrial supplies, 27.5%; non-auto consumer goods, 12.7%; motor vehicles and parts, 10.5%; aircraft and parts, 7.6%; food, feed and beverages, and 7.3%; and other, 3.0%.

 

[Modelworks]

Until government realizes that you do not spend money if you do not have it, expect it to only get worse. I was really impressed by a city meeting I saw on the news where some members of a city wanted to use surplus funds in savings to enhance their park. They ended up voting no saying that while they have the surplus now, something in the future could happen and they wouldn't be able to cover expenses if they spent the excess now with less taxes coming into the treasury.

That is the kind of federal government we need.

 

[Ozoned]

Until government realizes that you do not spend money if you do not have it, expect it to only get worse. I was really impressed by a city meeting I saw on the news where some members of a city wanted to use surplus funds in savings to enhance their park. They ended up voting no saying that while they have the surplus now, something in the future could happen and they wouldn't be able to cover expenses if they spent the excess now with less taxes coming into the treasury.

That is the kind of federal government we need.

If Obama wants to change this country, he should step in front of the camera and ask the american people to throw every member of congress out if they don't deliver a balanced budget for him to sign.

 

[Kntx]

Sweeping generalizations much? The U.S. has been losing manufacturing jobs steadily for 30+ years now. And foreign companies only invested in wind/solar because of the massive subsidies their govts provided. Look at how the profitability of solar is declining now that Germany and Spain are starting to withdraw the subsidies. It just isn't a viable alternative to fossil fuel based energy without them.

Seems you agree with me that the wind power components are being made elsewhere due to investment in those industries by the local governments. Now the US governement is sustaining those industries by purchasing the manufactured components.

 

[nobodyknows]

Sweeping generalizations much? The U.S. has been losing manufacturing jobs steadily for 30+ years now. And foreign companies only invested in wind/solar because of the massive subsidies their govts provided. Look at how the profitability of solar is declining now that Germany and Spain are starting to withdraw the subsidies. It just isn't a viable alternative to fossil fuel based energy without them.

So what was it Cheney talked about in his secret energy taskforce talks back in 2001?