Abraham Lincoln

[Mail5398]

I have always been a fan of Abraham Lincoln and was reading an article about him the other day when it brought up the fact he had served in the House of Representatives for one term. Lincoln, by today's comparison, was not an overly experienced candidate for President and probably not "ready on day one." When critics of Obama mention the fact he has not spent years in Washington as Clinton or McCain has, they may be forgetting that he has something in common with one of this country's greatest Presidents.

 

[Fern]

George Washington had even less political experience when he assumed the Presidency.

Fern

 

[jonks]

And Einstein and Bill Gates dropped out of school. I get the "experience isn't absolutely mandatory" argument, but it'd be a silly person who would argue that formal education is highly overrated just because some brilliant minds in the past succeeded without it.

 

[Mail5398]

Originally posted by: sirjonk
And Einstein and Bill Gates dropped out of school. I get the "experience isn't absolutely mandatory" argument, but it'd be a silly person who would argue that formal education is highly overrated just because some brilliant minds in the past succeeded without it.

Where did that come from? I was discussing political experience.

 

[nageov3t]

the executive branch was a lot less powerful and less centralized in those days.

and Obama's no Lincoln.

 

[Mavtek3100]

Loki Lincoln made sure the executive branch was plenty powerful in those days. Sure history regards Lincoln as some great character, but why is the question.

 

[OrByte]

Just like people should stop comparing Obama to Hitler people need to stop comparing Obama to Lincoln, MLK, Washington, your favorite aunt Betsie etc etc....

I am sure if we all think hard enough we can find qualities, skills, or experience that we find attractive or admirable in Obama.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: Mail5398

Originally posted by: sirjonk
And Einstein and Bill Gates dropped out of school. I get the "experience isn't absolutely mandatory" argument, but it'd be a silly person who would argue that formal education is highly overrated just because some brilliant minds in the past succeeded without it.

Where did that come from? I was discussing political experience.

Twas an analogy. If I get what you were saying, it's that a president can be successful without a ton of prior experience. I am merely pointing out that while people can achieve great success and accomplishment without schooling, the majority don't get very far, so pissing on schooling would be the same as pissing on experience in the political arena.

And I wouldn't compare Washington or any general of an army to Obama with regard to proven leadership abilities. Lincoln was a lawyer so I have nothing bad to say about him

 

[Mail5398]

Originally posted by: OrByte
Just like people should stop comparing Obama to Hitler people need to stop comparing Obama to Lincoln, MLK, Washington, your favorite aunt Betsie etc etc....

I am sure if we all think hard enough we can find qualities, skills, or experience that we find attractive or admirable in Obama.

The only comparison I brought up was that both had a lack of political experience. That is a lot different than other comparions.

If Clinton's attack on Obama is that he doesn't have the experience yet, is that really a valid argument.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: Mail5398

Originally posted by: OrByte
Just like people should stop comparing Obama to Hitler people need to stop comparing Obama to Lincoln, MLK, Washington, your favorite aunt Betsie etc etc....

I am sure if we all think hard enough we can find qualities, skills, or experience that we find attractive or admirable in Obama.

The only comparison I brought up was that both had a lack of political experience. That is a lot different than other comparions.

If Clinton's attack on Obama is that he doesn't have the experience yet, is that really a valid argument.

It doesn't seem to matter whether or not it's valid, and it can only be an opinion either way. Over 50% of voters said 'change' was their number one looked for quality in a candidate, and Obama won the huge majority of those. Only 20% thought experience was the most important, and Hillary won the huge majority of those.

 

[Mail5398]

Originally posted by: sirjonk

Originally posted by: Mail5398

Originally posted by: sirjonk
And Einstein and Bill Gates dropped out of school. I get the "experience isn't absolutely mandatory" argument, but it'd be a silly person who would argue that formal education is highly overrated just because some brilliant minds in the past succeeded without it.

Where did that come from? I was discussing political experience.

Twas an analogy. If I get what you were saying, it's that a president can be successful without a ton of prior experience. I am merely pointing out that while people can achieve great success and accomplishment without schooling, the majority don't get very far, so pissing on schooling would be the same as pissing on experience in the political arena.

And I wouldn't compare Washington or any general of an army to Obama with regard to proven leadership abilities. Lincoln was a lawyer so I have nothing bad to say about him

How about James Buchanan, considered by most historians as one of the worst U.S. President, he had tons of political experience.

I agree about the change issue. It's just that everytime I turn on CNN or MSNBC, it seems one of Clintion's surrogates is listing that as a reason why we shouldn't vote for Obama.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Considering where experienced Presidents have taken this country in the past and present, a lack of experience doesn't sound all that bad.

OT anecdote about Lincoln and his self-deprecating wit: He was debating Stephen Douglas and Douglas accused him of being "two-faced." Lincoln turns to the audience and says "I leave it to you. If I had another face, would I be wearing this one?"

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: sirjonk
And Einstein and Bill Gates dropped out of school. I get the "experience isn't absolutely mandatory" argument, but it'd be a silly person who would argue that formal education is highly overrated just because some brilliant minds in the past succeeded without it.

When did Einstein drop out? After his PhD?

 

[Excelsior]

Originally posted by: loki8481
the executive branch was a lot less powerful and less centralized in those days.

and Obama's no Lincoln.

Loki Lincoln made sure the executive branch was plenty powerful in those days. Sure history regards Lincoln as some great character, but why is the question.

'

Yeah. Lincoln did his part to make the executive branch more powerful...

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Mail5398

Originally posted by: OrByte
Just like people should stop comparing Obama to Hitler people need to stop comparing Obama to Lincoln, MLK, Washington, your favorite aunt Betsie etc etc....

I am sure if we all think hard enough we can find qualities, skills, or experience that we find attractive or admirable in Obama.

The only comparison I brought up was that both had a lack of political experience. That is a lot different than other comparions.

If Clinton's attack on Obama is that he doesn't have the experience yet, is that really a valid argument.

Yeah I would say it's valid. The question isn't if it is possible for someone to be a good president without experience, the question is if they are less likely to be a good one without experience.

While that's a very subjective question, I think that you can draw a reasonable conclusion that more experience would lead to more effective direction of the governmental apparatus, and thereby make for a more effective president.

So, despite the fact that some experienced presidents have sucked, and some inexperienced ones have been good, I don't see how either one of those renders this criticism invalid.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: sirjonk
And Einstein and Bill Gates dropped out of school. I get the "experience isn't absolutely mandatory" argument, but it'd be a silly person who would argue that formal education is highly overrated just because some brilliant minds in the past succeeded without it.

When did Einstein drop out? After his PhD?

He got kicked out in his teens, though he did go back. But you prove my point. Apparently Bill Gates is the only person in the world to succeed without a formal education. Even Einstein needed it. You think Obama is smarter than Einstein? Do ya?!

 

[FoBoT]

i don't want anymore experienced politicians, they have failed us and forsaken our children

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: sirjonk
He got kicked out in his teens, though he did go back. But you prove my point. Apparently Bill Gates is the only person in the world to succeed without a formal education. Even Einstein needed it. You think Obama is smarter than Einstein? Do ya?!

In that case, I should be president since I'm much more qualified than Obama. I guess I still have to wait another 8 before I'm eligible though.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Originally posted by: sirjonk

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: sirjonk
And Einstein and Bill Gates dropped out of school. I get the "experience isn't absolutely mandatory" argument, but it'd be a silly person who would argue that formal education is highly overrated just because some brilliant minds in the past succeeded without it.

When did Einstein drop out? After his PhD?

He got kicked out in his teens, though he did go back. But you prove my point. Apparently Bill Gates is the only person in the world to succeed without a formal education. Even Einstein needed it. You think Obama is smarter than Einstein? Do ya?!

Adam Sandler has repeatedly mentioned that he never did well in school and things turned out pretty well for him. There are quite a few success stories about people who did not pursue higher education, or dropped out, or whatever, who went on to be very successful in their fields. Higher education is fine and dandy, and tends to make you more employable, but to think that the only way you'll ever learn something is from a textbook or lecture is just silly. That said, it would be asinine to tell a child to forego their education because Bill Gates didn't need one.

But your comparison falls apart when you say that even Einstein needed a formal education, and then ask if we think Obama is smarter than Einstein. First, no one is questioning whether Obama has a formal education, because he clearly does. You seem to confuse education and experience, which are not the same. Second, I wouldn't expect Obama to formulate a theory of relativity, no... but I also wouldn't expect Einstein to deliver great prose about hope for the future. Everyone has their area of expertise, and Obama certainly seems to know a thing or two about pretty speeches (whether he knows how to run a country has yet to be seen).

As far as the issue of experience is concerned, some experience can be useful, but if you've spent your whole life in the Washington insiders club, you're pretty damn disconnected from the American people as a whole. I'd much rather have someone who traveled a lot and knew the problems that Americans faced in charge of the country, rather than someone who has spent the last 30 years on various committees discussing budgets or having lunches with lobbyists. Someone who is completely removed from the needs of the common people of this country would be a catastrophic clusterfuck of disaster for the majority of the country (the corporations would presumably make out great). I'm not accusing anyone in the current election of being cut from that mold, but I can see why too much experience can be a dangerous thing.

 

[Farang]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Considering where experienced Presidents have taken this country in the past and present, a lack of experience doesn't sound all that bad.

OT anecdote about Lincoln and his self-deprecating wit: He was debating Stephen Douglas and Douglas accused him of being "two-faced." Lincoln turns to the audience and says "I leave it to you. If I had another face, would I be wearing this one?"

I tried finding that in the Lincoln/Douglas debates and couldn't. I think that may be a myth.. disappointed because it is a good line.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: Atomic Playboy

Originally posted by: sirjonk

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: sirjonk
And Einstein and Bill Gates dropped out of school. I get the "experience isn't absolutely mandatory" argument, but it'd be a silly person who would argue that formal education is highly overrated just because some brilliant minds in the past succeeded without it.

When did Einstein drop out? After his PhD?

He got kicked out in his teens, though he did go back. But you prove my point. Apparently Bill Gates is the only person in the world to succeed without a formal education. Even Einstein needed it. You think Obama is smarter than Einstein? Do ya?!

But your comparison falls apart when you say that even Einstein needed a formal education, and then ask if we think Obama is smarter than Einstein. First, no one is questioning whether Obama has a formal education, because he clearly does. You seem to confuse education and experience, which are not the same. Second, I wouldn't expect Obama to formulate a theory of relativity, no... but I also wouldn't expect Einstein to deliver great prose about hope for the future. Everyone has their area of expertise, and Obama certainly seems to know a thing or two about pretty speeches (whether he knows how to run a country has yet to be seen).

Did you miss the exclamation point and smiley? I thought it was a ridiculous enough statement that it wouldn't be taken seriously even without them, but added them just to be sure, but deleted the /sarcasm as completely unnecessary...

 

[TallBill]

Originally posted by: Mavtek3100
Loki Lincoln made sure the executive branch was plenty powerful in those days. Sure history regards Lincoln as some great character, but why is the question.

Agreed, Executive branch lost a lot of power when Lincoln was killed and Johnson pissed off congress.

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: Mail5398

Originally posted by: OrByte
Just like people should stop comparing Obama to Hitler people need to stop comparing Obama to Lincoln, MLK, Washington, your favorite aunt Betsie etc etc....

I am sure if we all think hard enough we can find qualities, skills, or experience that we find attractive or admirable in Obama.

The only comparison I brought up was that both had a lack of political experience. That is a lot different than other comparions.

If Clinton's attack on Obama is that he doesn't have the experience yet, is that really a valid argument.

Valid?

I might choose another word. But yeah, I suppose it's a valid argument. Problem is, experience (and she's talking about "Washington" experience) is apparently not something the voter's hold in as high a regard as she seems to think is warranted.

H3ll, if she really thought it was all that importent she woulda dropped and supported Biden or Dodd.

IMO, experience is important. But I'd rather it be some kind of experience other than "Washington" experience.

Fern

 

[Whoozyerdaddy]

Originally posted by: Fern
George Washington had even less political experience when he assumed the Presidency.

Fern

Eisenhower never held office until he became president. Granted he had some gold stars on his resume like overseeing the allied efforts in WWII and runing NATO...

 

[Lemon law]

Politics is the art of legislating the possible. As an Urban activist in Chicago, Obama gained plenty of political experience dealing with others. And he extended that in the Illinois legislature. In terms of national experience, Obama may come up short, but its still a character question with any President.