Above the Law

[1prophet]

Iraq contractors accused firing on civilians

Unprecedented private force operates with little supervision or accountability

There are now nearly as many private contractors in Iraq as there are U.S. soldiers ? and a large percentage of them are private security guards equipped with automatic weapons, body armor, helicopters and bullet-proof trucks.

They operate with little or no supervision, accountable only to the firms employing them. And as the country has plummeted toward anarchy and civil war, this private army has been accused of indiscriminately firing at American and Iraqi troops, and of shooting to death an unknown number of Iraqi citizens who got too close to their heavily armed convoys.

Not one has faced charges or prosecution.



There is great confusion among legal experts and military officials about what laws ? if any ? apply to Americans in this force of at least 48,000.

Largely exempt from prosecution
They operate in a decidedly gray legal area. Unlike soldiers, they are not bound by the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Under a special provision secured by American-occupying forces, they are exempt from prosecution by Iraqis for crimes committed there.

The security firms insist their employees are governed by internal conduct rules and by use-of-force protocols established by the Coalition Provisional Authority, the U.S. occupation government that ruled Iraq for 14 months following the invasion.

But many soldiers on the ground ? <<<<who earn in a year what private guards can earn in just one month ? say their private counterparts should answer to a higher authority, just as they do. More than 60 U.S. soldiers in Iraq have been court-martialed on murder-related charges involving Iraqi citizens.

No one has been prosecuted
Some military analysts and government officials say the contractors could be tried under the Military Extraterritorial Jurisdiction Act, which covers crimes committed abroad. But so far, that law has not been applied to them.

Security firms earn more than $4 billion in government contracts, but the government doesn?t know how many private soldiers it has hired, or where all of them are, according to the Government Accountability Office. And the companies are not required to report violent incidents involving their employees.

Security guards now constitute nearly 50 percent of all private contractors in Iraq ? a number that has skyrocketed since the 2003 invasion, when then-Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said rebuilding Iraq was the top priority. But an unforeseen insurgency, and hundreds of terrorist attacks have pushed the country into chaos. Security is now Iraq?s greatest need.

Why are private contractors pulling security in such numbers instead of US soldiers and why are they exempt from the laws but US soldiers are not?


And what is this all about?

There is great confusion among legal experts and military officials about what laws ? if any ? apply to Americans in this force of at least 48,000.

If we can't figure out who is accountable to whom and what laws if any apply to them how can we tell other countries and our own soldiers how they must behave in combat?

 

[heyheybooboo]

Actually - I think this is the most f*cked-up thing about The Bush War.

The mercenaries make 2-3 times what our soldiers make and operate with impunity. No military code of justice for these pukes . . .

 

[Narmer]

That's how it is for all mercernaries. Absolutely no difference here. Why is anybody surprised?

 

[MadRat]

But the numbers of security people are small. The large $4 billion sum for the small number of contractors paid for by US taxpayers is the problem.

 

[Jhhnn]

It's a great example of how "outsourcing" and "privatization" really works. It actually costs more, a lot more, but the right people get the money, so it's all good, and they're protected behind a maze of corporate flimflammery and influence, bringing accountability to a non-existent level...

 

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
Actually - I think this is the most f*cked-up thing about The Bush War.

The mercenaries make 2-3 times what our soldiers make and operate with impunity. No military code of justice for these pukes . . .

Simple economics. If US soldiers were paid that much, there would be that many more people willing to go to Iraq.

 

[GrGr]

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
Actually - I think this is the most f*cked-up thing about The Bush War.

The mercenaries make 2-3 times what our soldiers make and operate with impunity. No military code of justice for these pukes . . .

Simple economics. If US soldiers were paid that much, there would be that many more people willing to go to Iraq.

And the US would go bankrupt that much sooner.

 

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: GrGr

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
Actually - I think this is the most f*cked-up thing about The Bush War.

The mercenaries make 2-3 times what our soldiers make and operate with impunity. No military code of justice for these pukes . . .

Simple economics. If US soldiers were paid that much, there would be that many more people willing to go to Iraq.

And the US would go bankrupt that much sooner.

The US isn't going bankrupt. Deficit is largely irrelevant in the scheme of things. You act like our economic system is as simple as a jar of money that's running out.

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: GrGr

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
Actually - I think this is the most f*cked-up thing about The Bush War.

The mercenaries make 2-3 times what our soldiers make and operate with impunity. No military code of justice for these pukes . . .

Simple economics. If US soldiers were paid that much, there would be that many more people willing to go to Iraq.

And the US would go bankrupt that much sooner.

The US isn't going bankrupt. Deficit is largely irrelevant in the scheme of things. You act like our economic system is as simple as a jar of money that's running out.

The deficit is relevent in as much as we still have to make large debt servicing payments and it screws with our currency and inflation.

Personally, I think the most scary part of this is that these guys aren't covered under the CMJ and they have a free pass in Iraq since Bremmer passed a law and our lackeys have thus far upheld it.

These guys run around in Iraq with impunity and are seen as arrogant and beastly. They were the ones in charge of Abu Gahraib. Additionally, they can, and have been, deployed domestically without Congressional oversight and circumvent Posse Commitatus. Blackwater arrived before even the NG did in NO, they confiscated private property, seized weapons, shot people without oversight, and ordered our troops around with impunity.

As far as budgetary items, they operate under Cost+ no-bid contracts. That means that the more items that pad their budgets, the more profit they make. There is no oversight in these items.

Keep in mind that Blackwater is only less than an hour or so away from the Capitol. It is controlled by a Christian fundamentalist who also belongs to the same organizations that "blessed" the Bush presidential run before he even ran. It's a scary thought that these people are supposed to be the face of America in Iraq most of the time.

They are also out for pure profit in the face of most reasonableness. The 4 contractors that were killed in Falijuah were Blackwater. They went in underarmored, under gunned, under manned, and walked right into an abmush. We then went and hundreds in response.

Read the book Blackwater, it's probably the most frightening thing I have read or seen in a long time.

 

[heyheybooboo]

Originally posted by: Nebor
The US isn't going bankrupt. Deficit is largely irrelevant in the scheme of things. .

Thankfully, the majority of American people don't buy that supply-sider talking-point drivel any more.

Interest Expense on the Federal Debt now exceeds $400 billion a year and is expected to increase by 30% by 2012.

Kinda puts that $8,970 tRillion debt - created by deficit spending - in a better perspective does it not?

Bush has broken the armed forces and the FEDERAL BUDGET.


EDIT: Cuold'nt speel 'trillion'

 

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: GrGr

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
Actually - I think this is the most f*cked-up thing about The Bush War.

The mercenaries make 2-3 times what our soldiers make and operate with impunity. No military code of justice for these pukes . . .

Simple economics. If US soldiers were paid that much, there would be that many more people willing to go to Iraq.

And the US would go bankrupt that much sooner.

The US isn't going bankrupt. Deficit is largely irrelevant in the scheme of things. You act like our economic system is as simple as a jar of money that's running out.

The deficit is relevent in as much as we still have to make large debt servicing payments and it screws with our currency and inflation.

Personally, I think the most scary part of this is that these guys aren't covered under the CMJ and they have a free pass in Iraq since Bremmer passed a law and our lackeys have thus far upheld it.

These guys run around in Iraq with impunity and are seen as arrogant and beastly. They were the ones in charge of Abu Gahraib. Additionally, they can, and have been, deployed domestically without Congressional oversight and circumvent Posse Commitatus. Blackwater arrived before even the NG did in NO, they confiscated private property, seized weapons, shot people without oversight, and ordered our troops around with impunity.

As far as budgetary items, they operate under Cost+ no-bid contracts. That means that the more items that pad their budgets, the more profit they make. There is no oversight in these items.

Keep in mind that Blackwater is only less than an hour or so away from the Capitol. It is controlled by a Christian fundamentalist who also belongs to the same organizations that "blessed" the Bush presidential run before he even ran. It's a scary thought that these people are supposed to be the face of America in Iraq most of the time.

They are also out for pure profit in the face of most reasonableness. The 4 contractors that were killed in Falijuah were Blackwater. They went in underarmored, under gunned, under manned, and walked right into an abmush. We then went and hundreds in response.

Read the book Blackwater, it's probably the most frightening thing I have read or seen in a long time.

You should be happy that there are brave mercenaries like those from Blackwater that were the first responders to the Katrina crisis. As long as your papers in order, you should have nothing to fear if you ever run across them.

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: GrGr

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
Actually - I think this is the most f*cked-up thing about The Bush War.

The mercenaries make 2-3 times what our soldiers make and operate with impunity. No military code of justice for these pukes . . .

Simple economics. If US soldiers were paid that much, there would be that many more people willing to go to Iraq.

And the US would go bankrupt that much sooner.

The US isn't going bankrupt. Deficit is largely irrelevant in the scheme of things. You act like our economic system is as simple as a jar of money that's running out.

The deficit is relevent in as much as we still have to make large debt servicing payments and it screws with our currency and inflation.

Personally, I think the most scary part of this is that these guys aren't covered under the CMJ and they have a free pass in Iraq since Bremmer passed a law and our lackeys have thus far upheld it.

These guys run around in Iraq with impunity and are seen as arrogant and beastly. They were the ones in charge of Abu Gahraib. Additionally, they can, and have been, deployed domestically without Congressional oversight and circumvent Posse Commitatus. Blackwater arrived before even the NG did in NO, they confiscated private property, seized weapons, shot people without oversight, and ordered our troops around with impunity.

As far as budgetary items, they operate under Cost+ no-bid contracts. That means that the more items that pad their budgets, the more profit they make. There is no oversight in these items.

Keep in mind that Blackwater is only less than an hour or so away from the Capitol. It is controlled by a Christian fundamentalist who also belongs to the same organizations that "blessed" the Bush presidential run before he even ran. It's a scary thought that these people are supposed to be the face of America in Iraq most of the time.

They are also out for pure profit in the face of most reasonableness. The 4 contractors that were killed in Falijuah were Blackwater. They went in underarmored, under gunned, under manned, and walked right into an abmush. We then went and hundreds in response.

Read the book Blackwater, it's probably the most frightening thing I have read or seen in a long time.

You should be happy that there are brave mercenaries like those from Blackwater that were the first responders to the Katrina crisis. As long as your papers in order, you should have nothing to fear if you ever run across them.

I really hope this is sarcastic.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
Actually - I think this is the most f*cked-up thing about The Bush War.

The mercenaries make 2-3 times what our soldiers make and operate with impunity. No military code of justice for these pukes . . .

They make a heck of a lot more than that.

It's a great example of how "outsourcing" and "privatization" really works. It actually costs more, a lot more

Not quite. Soldiers are there making crap money because they legally are bound to. A private contractor is there because he doesn't have to but because the money is enough. It's expensive because he's not compelled by threat of military court if he doesn't go. The surprising thing is not that these guys make $200k/year for doing what they do but that a grunt can make $30k for doing what essentially is the same thing. If I had the skillset to get paid $200k/year in that place I'd still be very unlikely to do it. It's really not that exhorbitant for the task at hand IMO.

The US is using more and more private military companies because the deaths of these people is not reflected in their own loss numbers and because as with any consulting situation, these companies can often quickly backfill positions and do it with competent, experienced fighters.

It does sound silly that they can get away with murder, which they probably can. If you remove them, though, you have to replace them with a ton more "sons and daughters" who'll be lambs to the slaughter like the current crop of sons and daughters.

 

[GrGr]

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: GrGr

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
Actually - I think this is the most f*cked-up thing about The Bush War.

The mercenaries make 2-3 times what our soldiers make and operate with impunity. No military code of justice for these pukes . . .

Simple economics. If US soldiers were paid that much, there would be that many more people willing to go to Iraq.

And the US would go bankrupt that much sooner.

The US isn't going bankrupt. Deficit is largely irrelevant in the scheme of things. You act like our economic system is as simple as a jar of money that's running out.

The deficit is relevent in as much as we still have to make large debt servicing payments and it screws with our currency and inflation.

Personally, I think the most scary part of this is that these guys aren't covered under the CMJ and they have a free pass in Iraq since Bremmer passed a law and our lackeys have thus far upheld it.

These guys run around in Iraq with impunity and are seen as arrogant and beastly. They were the ones in charge of Abu Gahraib. Additionally, they can, and have been, deployed domestically without Congressional oversight and circumvent Posse Commitatus. Blackwater arrived before even the NG did in NO, they confiscated private property, seized weapons, shot people without oversight, and ordered our troops around with impunity.

As far as budgetary items, they operate under Cost+ no-bid contracts. That means that the more items that pad their budgets, the more profit they make. There is no oversight in these items.

Keep in mind that Blackwater is only less than an hour or so away from the Capitol. It is controlled by a Christian fundamentalist who also belongs to the same organizations that "blessed" the Bush presidential run before he even ran. It's a scary thought that these people are supposed to be the face of America in Iraq most of the time.

They are also out for pure profit in the face of most reasonableness. The 4 contractors that were killed in Falijuah were Blackwater. They went in underarmored, under gunned, under manned, and walked right into an abmush. We then went and hundreds in response.

Read the book Blackwater, it's probably the most frightening thing I have read or seen in a long time.

You should be happy that there are brave mercenaries like those from Blackwater that were the first responders to the Katrina crisis. As long as your papers in order, you should have nothing to fear if you ever run across them.

Ausweis, bitte!

 

[kage69]

You should be happy that there are brave mercenaries like those from Blackwater that were the first responders to the Katrina crisis. As long as your papers in order, you should have nothing to fear if you ever run across them.

I think I'd be happier if the real emergency responders in situations like that were available, you know, FEMA, National Guard, state level emergency services? Having them absent in a time of need or woefully unorganized to do their job is going to make people feel emotions that aren't pacified by the presence of hired security. Mafia have done the same thing in times of emergency, here and abroad, and I don't find that a compelling reason to thank our stars that we have mafia around.

If you yourself were affected by Katrina and the clusterfvck that ensued due largely to this admin, I'll wager you'd have quite a different outlook on that.

Oh, and THE first responders to Katrina's wake were civilians helping their neighbors. That's great that Blackwater showed up someplace before the actual emergency services did (link if you feel like it btw) but that doesn't excuse what they do on our behalf on the other side of the globe. Somehow I doubt an Iraqi family who had a member gunned down by a Blackwater convoy will take comfort that someone in the same org dispensed fresh water in Mississippi a few years ago.

Might want to avoid using the Gestapo schtick next time too btw, not really doing your argument any favors...


My take on PMCs: necessary evils which need to be utilized with far more tact than they have been.

 

[Lemon law]

When you are in the war business, any American administration not out there drumming up business for blackwater is by definition unpatriotic. The scary thing is that outfits like blackwater now give corporations the ability to take over entire countries. We will see to happen and to a certain extent it already does. And just like a friend of a friend is my friend, blackwater may walk with the US for now, but the second it looks like they can make a penny more else where, they will sell us out in a second. And when it comes time to stamp them out, we are going to find they have guns and know how to use them.

 

[Starbuck1975]

The security forces in question are not mercenaries...a mercenary is someone who fights for profit in a war, but is not a citizen or national to any of the nations/factions involved in the fighting. Most of these security forces are former American military, recruited heavily from special ops...if anything, these security forces are an unchecked and unregulated extension of the American military, which is dangerous in and of itself.

The contractor in question is called Blackwater...there was a local news special about them the other day because this company intends to setup a training camp near San Diego in proximity to the Mexican border...and some immigrant rights groups fear that Blackwater could take on border security contracts against the drug cartels, but end up taking out anyone attempting to cross the border.

 

[Fern]

Firstly, the article says that there are as many private contractors as there are US soldiers It then goes to say to say that there are 48,000 American contactors.

Are we to deduce that the majority as non-American contractors (IIRC, we now have about 160,000 US soldiers, that would mean about 112,000 foreign contractors?)

I don't understand how anyone who has ever lived overseas can be confused about what laws govern these provate contractors - as usual, when you live & work overseas no matter what country you are from, you are governed by laws of the country you are in. In this case, Iraqi law. WAIT!. I just saw this:

Under a special provision secured by American-occupying forces, they are exempt from prosecution by Iraqis for crimes committed

So, no CMJ, no Iraqi law? I'd like some more specifics on that latter claim. But if true, they do seem "above the law".

Otherwise, why so many there? I'd suspect it is to provide security for the many employees of various companies doing work there, The US military isn't going to provide it, it's not their job. So, given the conditions it's clear that they must hire private security guards. And again, given the conditions the regular *rent-a-cop* with a walkie talkie anint gonna do the job, you'll need guards with AK-47s like the *bad guys* have.

Fern

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: Fern
Firstly, the article says that there are as many private contractors as there are US soldiers It then goes to say to say that there are 48,000 American contactors.

Are we to deduce that the majority as non-American contractors (IIRC, we now have about 160,000 US soldiers, that would mean about 112,000 foreign contractors?)

I don't understand how anyone who has ever lived overseas can be confused about what laws govern these provate contractors - as usual, when you live & work overseas no matter what country you are from, you are governed by laws of the country you are in. In this case, Iraqi law. WAIT!. I just saw this:

Under a special provision secured by American-occupying forces, they are exempt from prosecution by Iraqis for crimes committed

So, no CMJ, no Iraqi law? I'd like some more specifics on that latter claim. But if true, they do seem "above the law".

Otherwise, why so many there? I'd suspect it is to provide security for the many employees of various companies doing work there, The US military isn't going to provide it, it's not their job. So, given the conditions it's clear that they must hire private security guards. And again, given the conditions the regular *rent-a-cop* with a walkie talkie anint gonna do the job, you'll need guards with AK-47s like the *bad guys* have.

Fern

Keep in mind that Americans only make up a portion of the contractors. Blackwater hires a lot of ex-Pinochet military thugs also, who are still citizens of Chile. There are other SA countries and euro countries that are pulled from in addition to foreign "civilian contractors".

Bremer signed Order 17 which bars any prosecution of a civilian contractor, the iraqi puppets have yet to remove the law. Erik Prince and others like him have blocked inclusion of contractors in the CMJ.


These *are* mercenaries. It doesn't matter if they still pledge allegiance to the flag, they are paid for their warmaking services directly and not through a government. They are not governed by our laws or Iraqis and fight for pure profit. While many are former American servicement, they have no accountability except to a CEO.

These are not the people we want on the front lines "winning the hearts and minds" of Iraqis. This war has been a poorly managed one from day one.

 

[kage69]

Keep in mind that Americans only make up a portion of the contractors. Blackwater hires a lot of ex-Pinochet military thugs also, who are still citizens of Chile. There are other SA countries and euro countries that are pulled from in addition to foreign "civilian contractors".

Bremer signed Order 17 which bars any prosecution of a civilian contractor, the iraqi puppets have yet to remove the law. Erik Prince and others like him have blocked inclusion of contractors in the CMJ.


These *are* mercenaries. It doesn't matter if they still pledge allegiance to the flag, they are paid for their warmaking services directly and not through a government. They are not governed by our laws or Iraqis and fight for pure profit. While many are former American servicement, they have no accountability except to a CEO.

These are not the people we want on the front lines "winning the hearts and minds" of Iraqis. This war has been a poorly managed one from day one.

Kudos to the LK for this 100% factually correct post. :thumbsup: We should all keep in mind that Blackwater isn't the only PMC operating in Iraq as well.

 

[1EZduzit]

Unprecedented private force operates with little supervision or accountability

Sounds just like any other corporation these days?

 

[Aimster]

Isn't there a video of contractors driving and killing people from the back of their Humvee?

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: kage69

Keep in mind that Americans only make up a portion of the contractors. Blackwater hires a lot of ex-Pinochet military thugs also, who are still citizens of Chile. There are other SA countries and euro countries that are pulled from in addition to foreign "civilian contractors".

Bremer signed Order 17 which bars any prosecution of a civilian contractor, the iraqi puppets have yet to remove the law. Erik Prince and others like him have blocked inclusion of contractors in the CMJ.


These *are* mercenaries. It doesn't matter if they still pledge allegiance to the flag, they are paid for their warmaking services directly and not through a government. They are not governed by our laws or Iraqis and fight for pure profit. While many are former American servicement, they have no accountability except to a CEO.

These are not the people we want on the front lines "winning the hearts and minds" of Iraqis. This war has been a poorly managed one from day one.

Kudos to the LK for this 100% factually correct post. :thumbsup: We should all keep in mind that Blackwater isn't the only PMC operating in Iraq as well.

Yeah if you've got a foreign national fighting in a PMC for the US and they were recruited simply to fight and their only semblance of desire to be there is for cash, that's a mercenary if I've ever heard of one. Not that I think mercs are necessarily evil, but let's call it what it is.

 

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller
These *are* mercenaries. It doesn't matter if they still pledge allegiance to the flag, they are paid for their warmaking services directly and not through a government. They are not governed by our laws or Iraqis and fight for pure profit. While many are former American servicement, they have no accountability except to a CEO.

I don't see any problem with this. The ability to kill is a valuable, marketable skill in a world where a lot of people need to be killed.

 

[piasabird]

There is no law in Iraq!