Above the Law

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: LegendKiller
These *are* mercenaries. It doesn't matter if they still pledge allegiance to the flag, they are paid for their warmaking services directly and not through a government. They are not governed by our laws or Iraqis and fight for pure profit. While many are former American servicement, they have no accountability except to a CEO.

I don't see any problem with this. The ability to kill is a valuable, marketable skill in a world where a lot of people need to be killed.

Bin Laden would agree. You get some people, pay them enough and they can kill Iraqis. Americans, etc because they need to be killed. Heck, just convince them it's a matter of faith, and that makes good economic sense too. It saves money and if you are thinking you are working for God, then you cannot be bribed by mere money. Heaven awaits. I'm sure no one has a problem with that kind of thinking.

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: LegendKiller
These *are* mercenaries. It doesn't matter if they still pledge allegiance to the flag, they are paid for their warmaking services directly and not through a government. They are not governed by our laws or Iraqis and fight for pure profit. While many are former American servicement, they have no accountability except to a CEO.

I don't see any problem with this. The ability to kill is a valuable, marketable skill in a world where a lot of people need to be killed.

I see a significant problem with this if they are covered by no laws at all. They fall into a void in which they have no accountability. None are public companies, so they don't even answer to shareholders. The military doesn't oversee them, nor can they give them orders.

Essentially, you have a lawless, uncontrolled force supposedly representing our country in Iraq. Do you really think that's the best policy to turn Iraqis in our favor?

I also think it sets a dangerous precident for us to rely so much on mercs, especially ones who are not responsible for their actions. The Romans depended on Mercs and other such people just before the empire fell and they were the reason why the empire fell.

 

[manowar821]

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo

Originally posted by: Nebor
The US isn't going bankrupt. Deficit is largely irrelevant in the scheme of things. .

Thankfully, the majority of American people don't buy that supply-sider talking-point drivel any more.

Interest Expense on the Federal Debt now exceeds $400 billion a year and is expected to increase by 30% by 2012.

Kinda puts that $8,970 tRillion debt - created by deficit spending - in a better perspective does it not?

Bush has broken the armed forces and the FEDERAL BUDGET.


EDIT: Cuold'nt speel 'trillion'

Hey now, the Federal Reserve can just produce more money to fix that problem! It has worked so well in the past, why not keep doing it?

 

[piasabird]

So what is your complaint?

Are you suggesting we enlarge the Military and send more men to Iraq?

I think the people advising the president to send more troops to Iraq were shut down and not allowed to be heard. It is obvious our military is not large enough for the job at hand. So just enlarge the military already.

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: piasabird
So what is your complaint?

Are you suggesting we enlarge the Military and send more men to Iraq?

I think the people advising the president to send more troops to Iraq were shut down and not allowed to be heard. It is obvious our military is not large enough for the job at hand. So just enlarge the military already.

There are a few solutions.

1. Have the Iraqi Parliament overturn Order 17
2. Put contractors under the CMJ and under the command of US generals at a battlefield level
3. Create a non-partisan private contractor board to investigate abuse claims, contract problems, contract oversight, cost investigations...etc.
4. Install US officers into each major contractor unit to oversee operations

All of that should button this problem up pretty well.

 

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: piasabird
So what is your complaint?

Are you suggesting we enlarge the Military and send more men to Iraq?

I think the people advising the president to send more troops to Iraq were shut down and not allowed to be heard. It is obvious our military is not large enough for the job at hand. So just enlarge the military already.

There are a few solutions.

1. Have the Iraqi Parliament overturn Order 17
2. Put contractors under the CMJ and under the command of US generals at a battlefield level
3. Create a non-partisan private contractor board to investigate abuse claims, contract problems, contract oversight, cost investigations...etc.
4. Install US officers into each major contractor unit to oversee operations

All of that should button this problem up pretty well.

Too much oversight. The contractors get things done because they work without a chain of command and no red tape.

 

[manowar821]

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: piasabird
So what is your complaint?

Are you suggesting we enlarge the Military and send more men to Iraq?

I think the people advising the president to send more troops to Iraq were shut down and not allowed to be heard. It is obvious our military is not large enough for the job at hand. So just enlarge the military already.

There are a few solutions.

1. Have the Iraqi Parliament overturn Order 17
2. Put contractors under the CMJ and under the command of US generals at a battlefield level
3. Create a non-partisan private contractor board to investigate abuse claims, contract problems, contract oversight, cost investigations...etc.
4. Install US officers into each major contractor unit to oversee operations

All of that should button this problem up pretty well.

Too much oversight. The contractors get things done because they work without a chain of command and no red tape.

Hahaha, riiight. There is no such thing as too much oversight when it comes to hired killers.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: piasabird
So what is your complaint?

Are you suggesting we enlarge the Military and send more men to Iraq?

I think the people advising the president to send more troops to Iraq were shut down and not allowed to be heard. It is obvious our military is not large enough for the job at hand. So just enlarge the military already.

There are a few solutions.

1. Have the Iraqi Parliament overturn Order 17
2. Put contractors under the CMJ and under the command of US generals at a battlefield level
3. Create a non-partisan private contractor board to investigate abuse claims, contract problems, contract oversight, cost investigations...etc.
4. Install US officers into each major contractor unit to oversee operations

All of that should button this problem up pretty well.

Too much oversight. The contractors get things done because they work without a chain of command and no red tape.

If they murder someone, should they be held accountable?

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: piasabird
So what is your complaint?

Are you suggesting we enlarge the Military and send more men to Iraq?

I think the people advising the president to send more troops to Iraq were shut down and not allowed to be heard. It is obvious our military is not large enough for the job at hand. So just enlarge the military already.

There are a few solutions.

1. Have the Iraqi Parliament overturn Order 17
2. Put contractors under the CMJ and under the command of US generals at a battlefield level
3. Create a non-partisan private contractor board to investigate abuse claims, contract problems, contract oversight, cost investigations...etc.
4. Install US officers into each major contractor unit to oversee operations

All of that should button this problem up pretty well.

Too much oversight. The contractors get things done because they work without a chain of command and no red tape.

I have a feeling you're the type of person who believes that the ends justify the means, in all cases.

Sorry, but when we sent these people over there with no oversight, no accountability, no legal boundaries, we sent them over with the unintended consequence of pissing every Iraqi off. Impunity, cronyism, and lawlessness only leads to bad feelings.

If they were "getting the job done" then there wouldn't have been 200+ people killed yesterday and another 400 injured. There wouldn't have been cost overruns and underfunding of rebuilding projects due to "security" needs, resulting in blackouts, brownouts, poor elec in general, bad water...etc.

This war has been a collosal failure in all respects. The sad thing about it is that it could have very well been a coup for the US and Bush, if he had carried it out correctly.

 

[Lemon law]

As we can see from pre and post war infrastructure figures, it looks like ALL our contractors know is how to collect a paycheck for doing no work.

Maybe we need to hire Iraqis who have something like a 50% unemployment rate to fix things. It might give them something other than terrorism to do.

And instead we import an army of carpetbaggers and then wonder why the natives are none to happy?

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: piasabird
So what is your complaint?

Are you suggesting we enlarge the Military and send more men to Iraq?

I think the people advising the president to send more troops to Iraq were shut down and not allowed to be heard. It is obvious our military is not large enough for the job at hand. So just enlarge the military already.

There are a few solutions.

1. Have the Iraqi Parliament overturn Order 17
2. Put contractors under the CMJ and under the command of US generals at a battlefield level
3. Create a non-partisan private contractor board to investigate abuse claims, contract problems, contract oversight, cost investigations...etc.
4. Install US officers into each major contractor unit to oversee operations

All of that should button this problem up pretty well.

Too much oversight. The contractors get things done because they work without a chain of command and no red tape.

I have a feeling you're the type of person who believes that the ends justify the means, in all cases

I have a feeling he is being facetious, in fact any thread he posts in at P&N he's being facetious.

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: piasabird
So what is your complaint?

Are you suggesting we enlarge the Military and send more men to Iraq?

I think the people advising the president to send more troops to Iraq were shut down and not allowed to be heard. It is obvious our military is not large enough for the job at hand. So just enlarge the military already.

There are a few solutions.

1. Have the Iraqi Parliament overturn Order 17
2. Put contractors under the CMJ and under the command of US generals at a battlefield level
3. Create a non-partisan private contractor board to investigate abuse claims, contract problems, contract oversight, cost investigations...etc.
4. Install US officers into each major contractor unit to oversee operations

All of that should button this problem up pretty well.

Too much oversight. The contractors get things done because they work without a chain of command and no red tape.

I have a feeling you're the type of person who believes that the ends justify the means, in all cases

I have a feeling he is being facetious, in fact any thread he posts in at P&N he's being facetious.

I hope so, never really paid too much attention to his actual content.

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Essentially, you have a lawless, uncontrolled force supposedly representing our country in Iraq. Do you really think that's the best policy to turn Iraqis in our favor?

How are they representing us? The vast majority are not even Americans.


I also think it sets a dangerous precident for us to rely so much on mercs, especially ones who are not responsible for their actions. The Romans depended on Mercs and other such people just before the empire fell and they were the reason why the empire fell.

I would guess private security firms are there to protect are there to protect the numerous private or public companies that are doing business in Iraq. If so, I don't see how "we're relying" on them.

The military is not there to provide security for private money-making companies. Let 'em hire and pay for their own security.

I'd still like to see some evidence and details of this special provision exempting these private guards from Iraqi law.

That sounds too stupid to be true. I suspect there is more to the story.

Fern

 

[LegendKiller]

they guarded bremer, they protect us bases, they protect convoys supplying us troops, they often wear us flags, they often work for us companies....ect. they are the face of the occupation. do not forget that the money to pay them come not from iraqis, not from corporations, but from us taxpayers and insurgents now this well and use it against us in propaganda.

are you helpless? Order 17, its on wiki and can be easily googled. I had to pick up a book and read it, I guesssome are too lazy or are unwilling to admit the truth.

 

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: piasabird
So what is your complaint?

Are you suggesting we enlarge the Military and send more men to Iraq?

I think the people advising the president to send more troops to Iraq were shut down and not allowed to be heard. It is obvious our military is not large enough for the job at hand. So just enlarge the military already.

There are a few solutions.

1. Have the Iraqi Parliament overturn Order 17
2. Put contractors under the CMJ and under the command of US generals at a battlefield level
3. Create a non-partisan private contractor board to investigate abuse claims, contract problems, contract oversight, cost investigations...etc.
4. Install US officers into each major contractor unit to oversee operations

All of that should button this problem up pretty well.

Too much oversight. The contractors get things done because they work without a chain of command and no red tape.

I have a feeling you're the type of person who believes that the ends justify the means, in all cases

I have a feeling he is being facetious, in fact any thread he posts in at P&N he's being facetious.

I hope so, never really paid too much attention to his actual content.

You have to be a subscriber to view my content.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: piasabird
So what is your complaint?

Are you suggesting we enlarge the Military and send more men to Iraq?

I think the people advising the president to send more troops to Iraq were shut down and not allowed to be heard. It is obvious our military is not large enough for the job at hand. So just enlarge the military already.

There are a few solutions.

1. Have the Iraqi Parliament overturn Order 17
2. Put contractors under the CMJ and under the command of US generals at a battlefield level
3. Create a non-partisan private contractor board to investigate abuse claims, contract problems, contract oversight, cost investigations...etc.
4. Install US officers into each major contractor unit to oversee operations

All of that should button this problem up pretty well.

Too much oversight. The contractors get things done because they work without a chain of command and no red tape.

I have a feeling you're the type of person who believes that the ends justify the means, in all cases

I have a feeling he is being facetious, in fact any thread he posts in at P&N he's being facetious.

I hope so, never really paid too much attention to his actual content.

You have to be a subscriber to view my content.

Sounds kinky.

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Order 17

I'm reading it now. From what you've read, are Blackwater personnel "MNF Personnel"?

Fern

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Order 17

I'm reading it now. From what you've read, are Blackwater personnel "MNF Personnel"?

Fern

It's 100% true that they are exempted from Iraqi law, but there were good reasons for it.

When that order was issued, Iraq had no functioning judicial system, all that was there was a collection of local wild west style courts, etc. There was no guarantee of any sort of justice of any kind, and there were no acceptable standards set up. Who wants to subject their employees to a system like that? Who would be okay with being subjected to a system like that?

That's not to say that things haven't gone way... way too far with it at this point though. As far as I know, not a single contractor has been jailed despite huge numbers of reports of abuses, including murder, in more then 4 years now. The basic idea was that our justice systems were supposed to pick up the slack that we were giving them in Iraqi law, and while technically the contractors are subject to both US/UK domestic law and the UCMJ, neither one of these has actually been used to prosecute any offenses. (this is to the best of my knowledge... I know it was true as of a few months back)

 

[Fern]

Dangit, my copy of Order 17 won't let me cut-n-paste.

But looks like the security contractors are subject to number of authorities. Including the MNF (under the UN etc) and home country authorities. These contractors can be sued too (again, under home country rules).

Towards the end it says that the immunity from Iarqi law can be recinded by the Iraqi government. Apparently, they aren't yet interested in doing that.

So, they aren't "above the law". But whether or not the laws they are subject to are being applied properely is anybody's guess. While I would expect allegations, I have a hard time imagining any effective CSI- type evidence techs running around Iraq investigating possible crimes etc.

FWIW Here's the pdf of Revised Order 17 I'm looking at.

Fern