About Keystone XL

[Anarchist420]

No, it was BP cost cutting and the rig owners (who were being paid by BP) followed BPs bad call to remove the mud from the riser too soon.

But that is drilling for oil in ultradeep waters, it has little to do with running a pipeline.

I really think the BP oil spill was planned by the Federal government and it may not have been BP's fault at all.

Anyway, if this pipeline is to be only over land not already privately owned, then I'm fine with it. However, I suspect it's not. If I find out more information, then I'll update.

 

[Darwin333]

I really think the BP oil spill was planned by the Federal government and it may not have been BP's fault at all.

Huh? Are you talking about the same government that couldn't keep a damned blowjob secret?

Anyway, if this pipeline is to be only over land not already privately owned, then I'm fine with it. However, I suspect it's not. If I find out more information, then I'll update.

First of all, why can't a private landowner sell someone the rights to put a pipeline over his property? Second of all, this is one of those infrastructure projects that eminent domain was actually written for. This country's energy infrastructure would crumble to the point that we would be a 3rd world shithole in 50 years or so if the only thing we had available to us was public land that isn't protected or off limits. No more new roads, no new trains, no new airports, no new power lines, etc... the list goes on.

Let me guess, its 4:20 where you are at right now?

 

[Anarchist420]

Huh? Are you talking about the same government that couldn't keep a damned blowjob secret?



First of all, why can't a private landowner sell someone the rights to put a pipeline over his property? Second of all, this is one of those infrastructure projects that eminent domain was actually written for. This country's energy infrastructure would crumble to the point that we would be a 3rd world shithole in 50 years or so if the only thing we had available to us was public land that isn't protected or off limits. No more new roads, no new trains, no new airports, no new power lines, etc... the list goes on.

Let me guess, its 4:20 where you are at right now?

I don't believe that eminent domain is ethical so I don't really care if it can lead to the "public good"/stop the country from becoming 3rd world. However, I know you and many others disagree with me about "public good" vs ethics.

Anyway, I read some more about it possibly taking the lands of the indigenous people and they're very opposed to it. The thing I don't understand is who will buy their land for this project or if it's even on their land. The question is "where is this land coming from that the pipeline will be on?" so that's why I haven't formed a firm opinion either way on this issue. The idea of new pipeline to replace an old POS sounds great on paper, but I'm trying to figure out why the indigenous peoples are so upset about it. I briefly read something from corpwatch (or something like that), which is a far left source that I'm sure isn't very reliable. If there was a mises daily about it or a column on lewrockwell.com about this, then I'd know the complete truth. However, I couldn't find anything from them.

 

[dmcowen674]

LOL, yet you have absolutely no idea as to why we import refined product, do you?

How much are you gaining personally from it?

 

[CallMeJoe]

...If there was a mises daily about it or a column on lewrockwell.com about this, then I'd know the complete truth...

The mind boggles at the astonishing gullibility of some people.

 

[bfdd]

Could you elaborate on why you think it doesn't make sense long term? We might not be able to export it long term but why isn't it a good idea to do it while we can? You do realize that is what the Keystone pipeline is almost exclusively for right? It is going to pump crude to the Gulf of Mexico to be refined and exported to Asia.



Oh I agree completely, especially when your putting lives on the line but at the same time I understand that most of the time it can be very difficult to tell the man who signs your checks no.

You're right we might not be able to export long term, but that doesn't change the fact it seems counter-intuitive to sell something we're still importing. why wouldn't we want the better product for ourselves? I'll have to read more on the quality of the refined products we're bringing in and from where some more. You have any good sources for these kinds of things? If not I'll just start a google-trek.

 

[Darwin333]

You're right we might not be able to export long term, but that doesn't change the fact it seems counter-intuitive to sell something we're still importing. why wouldn't we want the better product for ourselves? I'll have to read more on the quality of the refined products we're bringing in and from where some more. You have any good sources for these kinds of things? If not I'll just start a google-trek.

I will look for the links but the answer is surprisingly simple.

We import the vast majority of our refined product from Europe (I think the UK is number 1 or 2). Why is that? It is because when you refine oil you get all sorts of products and you don't really get to choose what you get, for simplicity lets pretend that you just get gas and diesel. Europe in general has a much larger demand for diesel than they do for gas so after they refine the oil necessary to meet their diesel demand they have a bunch of gas left over that they don't need. So they sell it to us and we either use it or mark it up a tad and resell it.

Before this recent spike the majority of our gas exports went to Mexico who happens to be our 2nd largest supplier of oil. They had too much oil but not enough refining capacity so we made a deal, they sell us oil that we need plus a little extra for us to refine and send back to them.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with those two deals.

 

[LegendKiller]

The mind boggles at the astonishing gullibility of some people.

The guy has already proven he is incapable of independent thought. He's true to his name though, he wouldn't shed a tear if this country went to a 3rd world shithole, if only to stay true to his 18th century economic and philosophical delusions.

 

[dmcowen674]

The guy has already proven he is incapable of independent thought. He's true to his name though, he wouldn't shed a tear if this country went to a 3rd world shithole, if only to stay true to his 18th century economic and philosophical delusions.

I suspect he is another being paid by the RNC to post their talking points.

 

[Darwin333]

How much are you gaining personally from it?

Since I live in an area that a lot of that oil is refined and passed through, it creates good paying local jobs which in turn creates more potential customers for me. Obviously I can't put a number on it but at the end of the day we all personally gain from it.

 

[Darwin333]

I suspect he is another being paid by the RNC to post their talking points.

LOL. He doesn't spew anyones talking points.

 

[CallMeJoe]

I suspect he is another being paid by the RNC to post their talking points.

Anarchist a Republican shill? You force me to downgrade my already low opinion of your reasoning and comprehension.

 

[CallMeJoe]

LOL. He doesn't spew anyones talking points.

He does worship the ground the Pauls slither across, and accepts Lew Rockwell as the Inspired Voice of Truth...

 

[OneOfTheseDays]

A lot of misinformation being spread about on both sides. This pipeline is really not a cut and dry issue. For environmentalists, it poses some very serious risks:

Some environmental groups, citizens, and politicians have raised a number of concerns about the potential impacts of the Keystone XL extension.[42][43][44] One concern is that the pipeline could pollute air and water supplies and harm migratory birds and other wildlife.[22] It will cross the Sandhills in Nebraska, the large wetland ecosystem, and the Ogallala Aquifer, one of the largest reserves of fresh water in the world.[45] The Ogallala Aquifer spans eight states, provides drinking water for two million people, and supports $20 billion in agriculture.[46] Critics[weasel words] are concerned that a major leak could ruin drinking water and devastate the mid-western U.S. economy.[47] Portions of the pipeline will also cross an active seismic zone that had a 4.3 magnitude earthquake as recently as 2002.[46] Opponents claim that TransCanada applied to the U.S. government to use thinner steel and pump at higher pressures than normal.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keystone_Pipeline#cite_note-Gulf_Disaster_Raises_Alarms-46

Also, the claims about this pipeline being a "boost" to our economy are grossly overstated. From an independent study:

This has been disputed by an independent study conducted by the Cornell ILR Global Labor Institute which found that while the Keystone XL would result in 2,500 to 4,650 temporary construction jobs, this impact will be reduced by higher oil prices in the Midwest which will likely reduce national employment.[67]

Please conservatives. Do you research. Read. It's a wonderful thing.

 

[dmcowen674]

Anarchist a Republican shill? You force me to downgrade my already low opinion of your reasoning and comprehension.

I was talking about Darwin

 

[dmcowen674]

Also, the claims about this pipeline being a "boost" to our economy are grossly overstated. From an independent study:

Quote:
This has been disputed by an independent study conducted by the Cornell ILR Global Labor Institute which found that while the Keystone XL would result in 2,500 to 4,650 temporary construction jobs, this impact will be reduced by higher oil prices in the Midwest which will likely reduce national employment.[67]

Please conservatives. Do you research. Read. It's a wonderful thing.

They have done their research, they are thrilled that Chicago and me will pay even higher gas prices that are already highest in continental U.S.

 

[CallMeJoe]

I was talking about Darwin

You quoted LegendKiller's response to my Anarchist comment, so your Darwin intent still leaves your comprehension in question.

 

[Anarchist420]

Big update: http://www.triplepundit.com/2011/11/keystone-xl-pipeline-dreams-true-only-eminent-domain/

The land had to come from somewhere. In this case, it's private property owners being forced to sell for less than they would in a free society. This really does prove that the Republican leadership cares more about jobs than the free market and the ethics that would result from a free market.

It's been the same shit ever since Reagan's utilitarian supply side economics. In other words, tax cuts are good to most Republicans because they create jobs, not because they reduce tyranny.

 

[bfdd]

I will look for the links but the answer is surprisingly simple.

We import the vast majority of our refined product from Europe (I think the UK is number 1 or 2). Why is that? It is because when you refine oil you get all sorts of products and you don't really get to choose what you get, for simplicity lets pretend that you just get gas and diesel. Europe in general has a much larger demand for diesel than they do for gas so after they refine the oil necessary to meet their diesel demand they have a bunch of gas left over that they don't need. So they sell it to us and we either use it or mark it up a tad and resell it.

Before this recent spike the majority of our gas exports went to Mexico who happens to be our 2nd largest supplier of oil. They had too much oil but not enough refining capacity so we made a deal, they sell us oil that we need plus a little extra for us to refine and send back to them.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with those two deals.

yeah I know all about that, I get what you're saying with it. what I mean is though that we actually import and export specific refined products, ie gasoline. that's silly. I understand selling other refined products we have less demand for like coke and diesel.

You're right about the trade with canada and mexico. it's mostly our our smaller amount of opec trade i don't like.

 

[Darwin333]

A lot of misinformation being spread about on both sides. This pipeline is really not a cut and dry issue. For environmentalists, it poses some very serious risks:

Already quite old pipelines running in the same area. If there is an issue with the proposed materials than we should make them use whatever the industry standard is.

Also, the claims about this pipeline being a "boost" to our economy are grossly overstated. From an independent study:

Did you read the report? First of all it is claiming that building Keystone will divert oil away from the midwest and increase their gas prices. IF (and that is a really big if) that is true than it will happen anyway. Its not like the Canadians don't have a "Plan B" and they are just going to stop extracting the oil. Plan B, which they are threatening to move forward with rather quickly if we don't make up our mind, is to run a pipeline completely within the borders of Canada to its east coast where it will be exported from instead of the Gulf of Mexico. So pretty much all of the negative impacts they claim, if true, will happen regardless.

Even if they are overstated, why would we turn away any jobs that someone else is willing to pay for as well as increase our energy infrastructure (again, on their dime) as well as increase our national security, exports, shipping, and refining industry?

We have thousands upon thousands of miles of decade old pipelines criss crossing the country, I fail to understand why a new modern pipeline is such an issue.

Please conservatives. Do you research. Read. It's a wonderful thing.

[/quote]

I am not a "conservative" but I have done my fair share of research on this project and imo its a damn good deal for the US.

 

[dmcowen674]

Did you read the report? First of all it is claiming that building Keystone will divert oil away from the midwest and increase their gas prices. IF (and that is a really big if) that is true than it will happen anyway.

Not true.

Currently the pipeline brings oil from the overflowing Cushing Oklahoma oil depot to Chicago.

They are going to cut off Chicago and send the oil from Canada down to Houston instead.

They are predicting $20 a gallon gas in Chicago area.

There is no doubt that will not just cause rioting in Chicago but would touch off a firestorm across the country they will not be able to shut down.

 

[Darwin333]

yeah I know all about that, I get what you're saying with it. what I mean is though that we actually import and export specific refined products, ie gasoline. that's silly. I understand selling other refined products we have less demand for like coke and diesel.

You're right about the trade with canada and mexico. it's mostly our our smaller amount of opec trade i don't like.

Pretend that you make widgets out of copper and you had to import 50% of the copper to make them. You have a really good source and get the copper at a good cost due to your suppliers efficient shipping etc... Now pretend that you know someone in another industry that lives in Canada who needs some copper but not enough to order from your supplier. If he is willing to give you 15% more than you pay (including shipping), is it a good idea to import and export more copper?

Of course it is. You make more money, you pay more taxes, you might be able to expand a little or hire another worker, etc...


We likely have long term contracts to purchase the left over gas I spoke about in my previous post and now we have extra refining capability. I personally think it would be much more silly to let that refining capacity go to waste when we could be making good money on it. Even if we don't have long term contracts on it (doubtful), if the price at the pump is $2.50 and we have more than enough gas to cover our needs and someone else is willing to pay $2.60 a gallon for what we have leftover, why is that silly?

 

[Darwin333]

Not true.

Currently the pipeline brings oil from the overflowing Cushing Oklahoma oil depot to Chicago.

They are going to cut off Chicago and send the oil from Canada down to Houston instead.

They are predicting $20 a gallon gas in Chicago area.

There is no doubt that will not just cause rioting in Chicago but would touch off a firestorm across the country they will not be able to shut down.

You are the only person that is predicting $20 a gallon gas Dave but I truly hope it happens. If you don't like it you can move.

Edit: And just an FYI, they are either going to send it to Houston instead or they are going to send it to Canada's east cost instead. So either way, get ready for $20 a gallon gas because Canada is going to cut Chicago off. Maybe yall shouldn't have pissed them off.

 

[Darwin333]

Big update: http://www.triplepundit.com/2011/11/keystone-xl-pipeline-dreams-true-only-eminent-domain/

The land had to come from somewhere. In this case, it's private property owners being forced to sell for less than they would in a free society. This really does prove that the Republican leadership cares more about jobs than the free market and the ethics that would result from a free market.

It's been the same shit ever since Reagan's utilitarian supply side economics. In other words, tax cuts are good to most Republicans because they create jobs, not because they reduce tyranny.

Boy you are just stuck on stupid aren't you?

Without eminent domain you would have no electricity. Without eminent domain you would have no water or sewage service. Without eminent domain you would have no highways or interstates to drive from one place to another. Without eminent domain you would have no airports. Without eminent domain you would have no cable television, highspeed internet service, or phone service.

Without eminent domain we would probably be trying to illegally enter Mexico for work instead of the other way around. To want that for your country is simply batshit crazy.

 

[Anarchist420]

Boy you are just stuck on stupid aren't you?

Without eminent domain you would have no electricity. Without eminent domain you would have no water or sewage service. Without eminent domain you would have no highways or interstates to drive from one place to another. Without eminent domain you would have no airports. Without eminent domain you would have no cable television, highspeed internet service, or phone service.

Without eminent domain we would probably be trying to illegally enter Mexico for work instead of the other way around. To want that for your country is simply batshit crazy.

I fail to see how we need the state to give corporations permission to use other peoples' property.