Abortion Views

[Chaotic42]

Originally posted by: amnesiac 2.0

Yup, attack the person, not their views. Great way to argue your case.
Maybe I should have clarified that statement; I edited for brevity and didn't mean to use it as a blanket statement for all adoptees.

I try to keep cool about even the most sensitive of issues no matter where they are being discussed. I have no problem with you feeling however you want, but a statement as blatent as the one you made, and one which arguably debates whether I should be *alive* or not is inflammatory at best. So is mine of course, but imagine if I had said that about you.

If you still disagree with me, I am sorry, but again, the choice is up to the mother; if she doesn't want to give her child the chance, I don't think she should be stopped by the government. She ultimately pays for her decision as well.

I disagree with that part. Kind of hard for me not to, eh?

 

[Nefrodite]

and what are anecdotes worth? nothing perhaps you could leave your child in the forest and maybe it'll be raised by wolves and turn out fine. perhaps you'd rather not take that chance eh? its a choice, deal with it. it is not for you to judge. no one chooses to be born anyways.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: xospec1alk
i believe it is the choice of the mother
i think no one except the person actually carrying the baby should decide what is good for herself

When i was a liberal tree hugging college student I actually believed this too, but now that i'm married and have 3 children i would definitely have to disagree.

Our third child was not planned. when my wife found out she was pregnant with him she was very upset. I could have said well, that's a womans Decision, but comeon we all know thats complete BS and it's also shifting responsibility. The decision to keep or abort the child was not hers alone but one we made together. we chose not to abort and she is EXCEEDINGLY glad we didn't. he's a real treasure.

guys who say it's the womans decision and her's alone are either p whipped or they don't give a sh!t about the woman involved.

if you care about the woman you got pregnant then you should be involved in the decision.

 

[DaiShan]

I am for abortion but in a limited set of circumstances. For instance I am wholeheartedly against abortion as a method of birth control, birth control happens before, not after.If a woman is raped for example, I don't have a problem with abortion, or if it would cause health problems for the mother to carry the child to term.

 

[amnesiac]

Originally posted by: Chaotic42

Originally posted by: amnesiac 2.0

Yup, attack the person, not their views. Great way to argue your case.
Maybe I should have clarified that statement; I edited for brevity and didn't mean to use it as a blanket statement for all adoptees.

I try to keep cool about even the most sensitive of issues no matter where they are being discussed. I have no problem with you feeling however you want, but a statement as blatent as the one you made, and one which arguably debates whether I should be *alive* or not is inflammatory at best. So is mine of course, but imagine if I had said that about you.

If you still disagree with me, I am sorry, but again, the choice is up to the mother; if she doesn't want to give her child the chance, I don't think she should be stopped by the government. She ultimately pays for her decision as well.

I disagree with that part. Kind of hard for me not to, eh?

I understand. Perhaps I should rescind that statement altogether until I can gather enough information to fortify it.
This is a very complicated discussion and I feel that I should be more wary of what I think are my opinions before sharing them.
However, while for the time being I retract my rather callous assertion that adopted children might be better off aborted (it does sound rather rude the more I think about it) I stand by my original opinion of the situation altogether. You're more than welcome to disagree with that as well if you'd like.

 

[CPA]

Originally posted by: Czar
What are you views on abortion?
- I'm for it in most cases

Why do you hold these views?
- Because I belive in individual choice.

Is there a situation in which you think it is right? Wrong?
- Wrong, when its used as "birth control", as in when irresponsible people have unprotected sex and then deal with it afterwards by having an abortion, shows that people cant handle responsibility at all. Right, like when teenagers end up pregnant. When parents cant support a extra family member. When the mother is in danger of dying during birth. And so on.

Czar, you contridict yourself. You say it's wrong when irresponsible people have unprotected sex, but then say it is ok for teenagers (highly irresponsible in most cases, it's just nature) and parents who can't support an extra family member (huh? isn't that irresponsible in itself?). Make up your mind, please.

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: bmacd
She believes in it and justifies it...i however, could not see justifying the death of a baby. That's what the pill is for or emergency crisis centers. There are also other alternatives to death, despite retardation/rape child/serious defects.

Big talk when it isn't your life and the damaged life you may have to support. :disgust:

There are plenty of reasons why terminating a pregnancy is better than allowing it to continue, regardless of someone else's religious or philosophical beliefs. It's just not their business. I have four sisters, and each of them has a daughter. I would not presume to legislate or otherwise attempt to interfere their choice for their own very personal decisions.

 

[CPA]

Originally posted by: Czar

Originally posted by: Tominator

Originally posted by: xospec1alk
i believe it is the choice of the mother
i think no one except the person actually carrying the baby should decide what is good for herself

So 8 months into the pregency she has a fight with her boyfriend and decides to kill it.

You MIGHT convince me into retro-active abortions!
:|

you do know that abortions are not done if the pregnancy has lasted over 3 months

Czar, you are so wrong on this issue. there are plenty of second trimester abortions performed and the last time I knew late-term abortions, while deplorable, are still not illegal.

 

[Nefrodite]

Originally posted by: Millenium

Originally posted by: minendo

Originally posted by: xospec1alk
i believe it is the choice of the mother
i think no one except the person actually carrying the baby should decide what is good for herself

What about the father? The child is technically half his in that he provided half. What if the mother does not want the child yet the father is ready to fully support the unborn child?

That is what I always said. Why doesn't the father have any say?

maybe in the future when with the aid of drugs and surgury men can carry children to term. then you can have say.

 

[vi edit]

Originally posted by: CPA

Originally posted by: Czar
What are you views on abortion?
- I'm for it in most cases

Why do you hold these views?
- Because I belive in individual choice.

Is there a situation in which you think it is right? Wrong?
- Wrong, when its used as "birth control", as in when irresponsible people have unprotected sex and then deal with it afterwards by having an abortion, shows that people cant handle responsibility at all. Right, like when teenagers end up pregnant. When parents cant support a extra family member. When the mother is in danger of dying during birth. And so on.

Czar, you contridict yourself. You say it's wrong when irresponsible people have unprotected sex, but then say it is ok for teenagers (highly irresponsible in most cases, it's just nature) and parents who can't support an extra family member (huh? isn't that irresponsible in itself?). Make up your mind, please.

I can sort of elaborate on this.

I'm going to be married in about 10 months time. I'll be 25, and my wife will be 23. She has been, and will continue to be on the depo provera shot after our marriage. At that time she will have been on the shot for close to 4 years. She will also be in her 3rd year of Pharmacy school, with two years remaining. A pregnancy would make finishing that year of school nearly impossible, and would make her rotations very, very difficulty. You can't call us "irresponsible", since we were practicing birth control, and we in fact married, but a child would be an serious challenge both economically (since we are on one income) as well as her career. I'm not saying that an abortion would be optimal decision here, but at least it is an option.

 

[Tominator]

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: bmacd
She believes in it and justifies it...i however, could not see justifying the death of a baby. That's what the pill is for or emergency crisis centers. There are also other alternatives to death, despite retardation/rape child/serious defects.

Big talk when it isn't your life and the damaged life you may have to support. :disgust:

There are plenty of reasons why terminating a pregnancy is better than allowing it to continue, regardless of someone else's religious or philosophical beliefs. It's just not their business. I have four sisters, and each of them has a daughter. I would not presume to legislate or otherwise attempt to interfere their choice for their own very personal decisions.

All it takes for evil to win is that good men do nothing....

 

[Mill]

Originally posted by: Nefrodite

Originally posted by: Millenium

Originally posted by: minendo

Originally posted by: xospec1alk
i believe it is the choice of the mother
i think no one except the person actually carrying the baby should decide what is good for herself

What about the father? The child is technically half his in that he provided half. What if the mother does not want the child yet the father is ready to fully support the unborn child?

That is what I always said. Why doesn't the father have any say?

maybe in the future when with the aid of drugs and surgury men can carry children to term. then you can have say.

Maybe I don't like to kill innocent people. But hey if that is OK with you then whatever.

 

[CPA]

Originally posted by: vi_edit

Originally posted by: CPA

Originally posted by: Czar
What are you views on abortion?
- I'm for it in most cases

Why do you hold these views?
- Because I belive in individual choice.

Is there a situation in which you think it is right? Wrong?
- Wrong, when its used as "birth control", as in when irresponsible people have unprotected sex and then deal with it afterwards by having an abortion, shows that people cant handle responsibility at all. Right, like when teenagers end up pregnant. When parents cant support a extra family member. When the mother is in danger of dying during birth. And so on.

Czar, you contridict yourself. You say it's wrong when irresponsible people have unprotected sex, but then say it is ok for teenagers (highly irresponsible in most cases, it's just nature) and parents who can't support an extra family member (huh? isn't that irresponsible in itself?). Make up your mind, please.

I can sort of elaborate on this.

I'm going to be married in about 10 months time. I'll be 25, and my wife will be 23. She has been, and will continue to be on the depo provera shot after our marriage. At that time she will have been on the shot for close to 4 years. She will also be in her 3rd year of Pharmacy school, with two years remaining. A pregnancy would make finishing that year of school nearly impossible, and would make her rotations very, very difficulty. You can't call us "irresponsible", since we were practicing birth control, and we in fact married, but a child would be an serious challenge both economically (since we are on one income) as well as her career. I'm not saying that an abortion would be optimal decision here, but at least it is an option.

Vi,

i understand your point, but because your life may be inconvenienced should not justify an abortion, optimally or not. There is always the abstinance route, yeah I know that is probably impractical, but which would be the worse inconvenience: abstinance, abortion or baby?

My wife went through a natural abortion (for you kids in the crowd, it is when the body naturally rejects the fetus) about two years ago. It was one of the hardest things my wife and I went through. And this from a pregnancy that wasn't planned or practical for our financial situation. But he/she would have been welcomed, nonetheless. I couldn't even imagine what it would be like if the abortion was planned.

 

[Nefrodite]

Originally posted by: Millenium

Originally posted by: Nefrodite

Originally posted by: Millenium

Originally posted by: minendo

Originally posted by: xospec1alk
i believe it is the choice of the mother
i think no one except the person actually carrying the baby should decide what is good for herself

What about the father? The child is technically half his in that he provided half. What if the mother does not want the child yet the father is ready to fully support the unborn child?

That is what I always said. Why doesn't the father have any say?

maybe in the future when with the aid of drugs and surgury men can carry children to term. then you can have say.

Maybe I don't like to kill innocent people. But hey if that is OK with you then whatever.

why? because your an all knowing god that can determine when life really starts? because you think that even killing say 12 cells into development is full out murder? since you aren't the authority on this, you leave judgement to yourself. your belief is more akin to religious then anything else. you can argue either way, which is why it should be left to the individual. you do what you do, and you let others do as they wish.


get off your high horse.

 

[Michael1897]

I don't like the idea of it but I have to admit that I am pro-choice. I know it goes against everything my religion (catholic) teaches me but I look at it this way: those that want an abortion or deem it necessary to have an abortion will do so whether it is legal or not. to say that you are going to out law them is going to be as affective as outlawing drugs.

i\

 

[vi edit]

CPA, it wouldn't be an easy decision, not would it be the final one, but we wouldn't rule it out.

I am VERY anti abortion after the start of the second trimester. But, before that, my perception of what is human, and what isn't human quickly become more and more gray. At 2-3 months, the fetus would have a single digit, if even that high of a percentage of ever surviving if it was born. Based upon my studies of human development, I would not classify a fetus as "human" at that stage of gestation. Once you hit three months, things start to happen rapidly.

We also have the concern of the depo shot. There is a VERY high chance miscarrige and birth defects from women who got pregnant while on it. This stress, as well as the fact that it would wreck her schooling, might just cause her to miscarrige anyway. Just a whole lot of "IF's".

I think the key issue just revolves around what you consider "human". Some people call it human as soon as a the sperm and egg unite. I beg to differ. It's an issue that will probably never be resolved. Each person has their own interpretations.

I'm sorry for you and your wife. My mother had a tubal pregnacy that resulted in the rupturing of the tube, and a nearly life threatening situation for my mother. I've never been completely informed of what happened, and I don't wish to bring the topic up, but I believe that she had an abortion to save her life. I was about 7 at the time, but I could tell that my mother was severely affected emotionally because of it.

 

[CPA]

Originally posted by: Nefrodite

Originally posted by: Millenium

Originally posted by: Nefrodite

Originally posted by: Millenium

Originally posted by: minendo

Originally posted by: xospec1alk
i believe it is the choice of the mother
i think no one except the person actually carrying the baby should decide what is good for herself

What about the father? The child is technically half his in that he provided half. What if the mother does not want the child yet the father is ready to fully support the unborn child?

That is what I always said. Why doesn't the father have any say?

maybe in the future when with the aid of drugs and surgury men can carry children to term. then you can have say.

Maybe I don't like to kill innocent people. But hey if that is OK with you then whatever.

why? because your an all knowing god that can determine when life really starts? because you think that even killing say 12 cells into development is full out murder? since you aren't the authority on this, you leave judgement to yourself. your belief is more akin to religious then anything else. you can argue either way, which is why it should be left to the individual. you do what you do, and you let others do as they wish.


get off your high horse.

If scientists can date the universe, then I don't think you need to be god to determine when life begins.

 

[Mill]

Originally posted by: Nefrodite

Originally posted by: Millenium

Originally posted by: Nefrodite

Originally posted by: Millenium

Originally posted by: minendo

Originally posted by: xospec1alk
i believe it is the choice of the mother
i think no one except the person actually carrying the baby should decide what is good for herself

What about the father? The child is technically half his in that he provided half. What if the mother does not want the child yet the father is ready to fully support the unborn child?

That is what I always said. Why doesn't the father have any say?

maybe in the future when with the aid of drugs and surgury men can carry children to term. then you can have say.

Maybe I don't like to kill innocent people. But hey if that is OK with you then whatever.

why? because your an all knowing god that can determine when life really starts? because you think that even killing say 12 cells into development is full out murder? since you aren't the authority on this, you leave judgement to yourself. your belief is more akin to religious then anything else. you can argue either way, which is why it should be left to the individual. you do what you do, and you let others do as they wish.


get off your high horse.

Maybe you should read posts before you get on your pedestal. My belief is MORAL but based more ON REAL LIFE EXPERIENCE. AKA READ MY POST!

"My best friend had an abortion. It really was a downturn in her life. "

I would like to let individuals make deciscions but not when an innocent life is involved. My best friend has never recovered fully emotionally nor has another lady I knew. As for rape cases, my cousin was raped(the chance of this happening is still SO SMALL) and she had the baby anyway. That baby is now 16 and quite a kid. I guess she should have aborted her anyway though?


Oh yeah I should have never responded to you in this thread anyway. Ever since I owned you in the Southern racism thread you blindly attack instead of my arguments. If there was an ignore function I would use it.

 

[Nefrodite]

Originally posted by: CPA

Originally posted by: Nefrodite

Originally posted by: Millenium

Originally posted by: Nefrodite

Originally posted by: Millenium

Originally posted by: minendo

Originally posted by: xospec1alk
i believe it is the choice of the mother
i think no one except the person actually carrying the baby should decide what is good for herself

What about the father? The child is technically half his in that he provided half. What if the mother does not want the child yet the father is ready to fully support the unborn child?

That is what I always said. Why doesn't the father have any say?

maybe in the future when with the aid of drugs and surgury men can carry children to term. then you can have say.

Maybe I don't like to kill innocent people. But hey if that is OK with you then whatever.

why? because your an all knowing god that can determine when life really starts? because you think that even killing say 12 cells into development is full out murder? since you aren't the authority on this, you leave judgement to yourself. your belief is more akin to religious then anything else. you can argue either way, which is why it should be left to the individual. you do what you do, and you let others do as they wish.


get off your high horse.

If scientists can date the universe, then I don't think you need to be god to determine when life begins.

i guess it went over your head when i said "when life really starts", not simply when life starts. ;roll just as i don't consider an egg half a human or a sperm half a human, i don't considered a simple fertilized egg a human. there is no scientific method for testing this, as there is no scientific method for assertaining whether there is a god. so don't go down that road.

 

[Mill]

You can read my reply too then I am done with that thread.

 

[WarCon]

Originally posted by: vi_edit
CPA, it wouldn't be an easy decision, not would it be the final one, but we wouldn't rule it out.

I am VERY anti abortion after the start of the second trimester. But, before that, my perception of what is human, and what isn't human quickly become more and more gray. At 2-3 months, the fetus would have a single digit, if even that high of a percentage of ever surviving if it was born. Based upon my studies of human development, I would not classify a fetus as "human" at that stage of gestation. Once you hit three months, things start to happen rapidly.

We also have the concern of the depo shot. There is a VERY high chance miscarrige and birth defects from women who got pregnant while on it. This stress, as well as the fact that it would wreck her schooling, might just cause her to miscarrige anyway. Just a whole lot of "IF's".

I think the key issue just revolves around what you consider "human". Some people call it human as soon as a the sperm and egg unite. I beg to differ. It's an issue that will probably never be resolved. Each person has their own interpretations.

I'm sorry for you and your wife. My mother had a tubal pregnacy that resulted in the rupturing of the tube, and a nearly life threatening situation for my mother. I've never been completely informed of what happened, and I don't wish to bring the topic up, but I believe that she had an abortion to save her life. I was about 7 at the time, but I could tell that my mother was severely affected emotionally because of it.

You have a well spoken arguement, but a quick question? Can an infant survive on its own? Can a toddler? Can a small child (starts getting to be a possibility here to go either way)? I personally don't find that to be a valid arguement. One based on size or quantity of flesh. Give any fetus 9 months of time and it is a baby, that won't change. So it is sub-human or really part of the pregnant woman until then?

If these are the arguements, then why is there a time limit to abort? And if trying to decide if when the fetus/baby starts being able to think is a basis, then why is it illegal to terminate brain dead people that can survive without machines (but can't feed themselves, etc.)? They are after all simply large lumps of flesh. I personally am against all abortions, and I didn't use to be. I use to be pro-abortion (woman's choice), but as I have gotten older I have thought it through and realize that in most cases it is being used to selfishly ("it will inconvience the plans I have for my future") decide the fate of another. If the mother (parents) don't want it, then give it up for adoption. Most babies find homes before the mother has the baby with loving parents. I think if your using a contraceptive method that states on the box that it is only 99% effective and have sex 100 times you should expect a child from one of those times (Its simple math). Either use multiple methods or choose abstinance from penetration until your ready for children. I don't think removing the life of a developing baby is an acceptable contraceptive method and I doubt I ever will.

Wanna hear something I think is funny (strange). Most liberals are pro-choice and against the death sentence. Has to make you think.

 

[PlatinumGold]

ONE more time.

we should make a distinction between Political and Moral.

Banning abortion is like banning Alchohol, drugs or cigarettes.

Is abortion Immoral, YES, but i don't think you can make it Illegal. There is a distinction here.

 

[vi edit]

You have a well spoken arguement, but a quick question? Can an infant survive on its own? Can a toddler? Can a small child (starts getting to be a possibility here to go either way)? I personally don't find that to be a valid arguement. One based on size or quantity of flesh. Give any fetus 9 months of time and it is a baby, that won't change. So it is sub-human or really part of the pregnant woman until then?

Not in the sense that they can feed, bath, and perform personal hygene, but they can in fact breath and perform most bodily functions without assistance.

I should have rephrased that - survive out of the womb. At that stage of pregnancy, a fetus could not survive out of the womb, even with the best medical assistance we have.

It's an issue of where one draws the line between human, and "will be human". I do not deny that my thoughts are that of selfish intent, and that I put my well being before an unborn child, but that is where I stand. As far as where I stand politically, I am best described as libertarian, and my convictions follow that of the libertarian party in that it is a personal choice and not one for the government to mess with.

As a serious, commited, and intimate couple, I do not see how an outsider has any more right to say that we should abstain from intercourse than they do to tell a woman what she can do with her body. If a vasectomy had a higher reversal percentage than it currently does, I would choose that method in place of having the woman tinker with hormones and chemical balences within her body. But alas, it is not highly reversable at the time, so it is not a likely solution.

There is no black and white issue here. I believe after a certain point a fetus is human, and others feel differently. We could argue till we are blue in the face and nothing will change those beliefs.

To counter your argument about liberals and the death penalty - I personally find it odd that someone who is against abortion would have no problems killing someone for stealing a $150 stereo. I find that a serious flaw in beliefs myself, reguarless of political slant.

 

[Chaotic42]

Originally posted by: amnesiac 2.0

I understand. Perhaps I should rescind that statement altogether until I can gather enough information to fortify it.
This is a very complicated discussion and I feel that I should be more wary of what I think are my opinions before sharing them.
However, while for the time being I retract my rather callous assertion that adopted children might be better off aborted (it does sound rather rude the more I think about it) I stand by my original opinion of the situation altogether. You're more than welcome to disagree with that as well if you'd like.

It's all gravy, baby.

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: Tominator
All it takes for evil to win is that good men do nothing....

... or well intended men to get in the way of another individual who has intelligently figured out her own answers.