Abortion puzzles me

[mordantmonkey]

I have no problem with abortion. but i think child porn is horrible. not sure how i'd feel about someone molesting a 3 week old fetus. oh wait that's right you couldn't... cause a three week old fetus is about the size of a pencil lead.

A woman's body chooses to abort fetuses or to flush out fertilized eggs, "babies" if you prefer, all the time. Why shouldn't her mind be able to make the same decision? oh right cause it's gods doing. sorry, i'm an atheist, that dog won't hunt.

 

[jlbenedict]

There are alot of sick fvcks throughout this thread.

Where do people come up with their idea's that a fetus does not react, cannot see, respond while inside the womb is beyond my imagination...

This baby/fetus talk really hits home with me as well. Back in October, I experienced the unfortunate premature loss of our son..it ended up being stillborn at 23 weeks. According to statistics, a 23 week old fetus usually has about a 40-45% chance of surviving, if placed in an appropriate NICU. While my wife was in labor, the hospital/doctor let my wife lay there from early morning until the late hours of the night until my son's heartbeat no longer existed. The doctor kept feeding us bullshit excuses on why it wasn't a good idea to do an emergency C-section.. Early in the day, my son was alive, breathing, heart beating.. my wife's water broke, due to infection supposedly...
But, the doctor did nothing.. almost in a sense that he didn't want to be bothered, and put any effort into giving my son that chance.. even if it was a 40% chance.. A 40% chance is better than no damn chance at all right...
I held my son for a couple of hours before they took him away to prepare him for burial procedures.. to this day I'm angered by the action the hospital staff took ..

Alot of you just do not seem to understand how precious life is and do not have a care in the world.

 

[Brazen]

Originally posted by: jlbenedict
There are alot of sick fvcks throughout this thread.

Where do people come up with their idea's that a fetus does not react, cannot see, respond while inside the womb is beyond my imagination...

This baby/fetus talk really hits home with me as well. Back in October, I experienced the unfortunate premature loss of our son..it ended up being stillborn at 23 weeks. According to statistics, a 23 week old fetus usually has about a 40-45% chance of surviving, if placed in an appropriate NICU. While my wife was in labor, the hospital/doctor let my wife lay there from early morning until the late hours of the night until my son's heartbeat no longer existed. The doctor kept feeding us bullshit excuses on why it wasn't a good idea to do an emergency C-section.. Early in the day, my son was alive, breathing, heart beating.. my wife's water broke, due to infection supposedly...
But, the doctor did nothing.. almost in a sense that he didn't want to be bothered, and put any effort into giving my son that chance.. even if it was a 40% chance.. A 40% chance is better than no damn chance at all right...
I held my son for a couple of hours before they took him away to prepare him for burial procedures.. to this day I'm angered by the action the hospital staff took ..

Alot of you just do not seem to understand how precious life is and do not have a care in the world.

Society is just so selfish. My son is alive and healthy, but I would have given my life to save his the day he was born, or even the day he was concieved if necessary. Anybody who finds that hard to believe is not a loving parent.

 

[nakedfrog]

Originally posted by: Trevelyan

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Tell you what, you worry about yourself and stop carring about what the rest of us do to other people mmmkay?

It's really none of your business.

Fixed.

See, that's the problem with that line of thinking. It totally assumes that abortion affects only the mother. It doesn't consider the child being aborted. It sidesteps the real issue.

Does it effect you?

 

[g8wayrebel]

I , for one, am against abortion.
I dont , however feel it is the right of you or the government to tell a woman to have a baby she doesn't want.
There should be very limited time constraints on the time allotted of the procedure , and late term is totally unacceptable
IMO, unless the Mother's life is directly threatened by proceeding.
There are too many unwanted and abused children in this world as it is.
I couldn't ,in good conscience, cause some one to bring another into this world under the guise of civil law.
Forced birth control could be a good idea though.
Any one who contracts a disease from drugs or illicit practices which would infect a child should be rendered medically
incapable of producing children ,under a judges order, for the better of society and any child which may come from that individuals actions.
Any one convivted of violence related to the use of drugs , after having attended a mandatory rehabilitation program , who then commits further crimes and is found to continue to use drugs,should also be forced to submit to such medical procedure.

 

[Boztech]

Originally posted by: Trevelyan

Honestly, and I know this is easy for me to say, because it hasn't happened to me...

My reaction would first be extreme anger at the person who did this to my wife. The process of forgiving that person would be a long road. I would probably be extremely depressed and horrified for quite some time, and would have some long, tear-filled talks with God.

But, I would still believe the right thing to do would be to keep the baby. This child growing inside my wife would not be guilty because of his father... this child would still be innocent, and to kill him for my sake or my wife's sake would be selfish, and wrong.

I would probably think it my right to take that life, considering the extreme trauma that was endured. But that would not be so.

The rape would be the tragedy, but the child does not have to be.

Well, let me cite our friend Sarah as an example. She lives alone and gets by on a waitresses salary. Were she to carry out the child, she would first and foremost have the bear the emotional burden of carrying a rapist's child, who in all likelihood will never have or know his real father, and serve as a constant reminder to the kind of traumatic event that tends to be so harsh on a woman's psyche as to push itself to parts of the mind where it is forgotten... then she would most likely lose her job for a period of some months and have no income.. then she would have to deal with the physical issues of carrying out a pregnancy as a Type I diabetic which could result in the death of both her, and the child.

The choice was pretty clear for her.

 

[bluemax]

Originally posted by: gigapet
If all abortion ended tommorow who is supposed to support and raise all these unwanted babies? What would be the effects on society?

Like I said before (and, of course, ignored) the waiting list for babies to adopt is miles long. Couples wait 10 years and more.

That's where the babies would go - to parents who DO want them, rather than the careless parents that don't.

 

[JDrake]

Originally posted by: gigapet

Originally posted by: joedrake

Originally posted by: Boztech

Originally posted by: joedrake

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: joedrake
Sperm cell (23) + egg cell (23) = human baby (46)

Negative.

It doesn't??

No. An embryo is not a baby just like an egg is not a chicken.

O yea? Then why don't vegans eat chicken eggs.. when they OBVIOUSLY aren't chicken?!

animal produts are not animals. Fingernails are not people either should we have laws against clipping nails and cutting hair. come on your being silly.

Hair and nails are already dead

 

[JDrake]

Originally posted by: bluemax

Originally posted by: gigapet
If all abortion ended tommorow who is supposed to support and raise all these unwanted babies? What would be the effects on society?

Like I said before (and, of course, ignored) the waiting list for babies to adopt is miles long. Couples wait 10 years and more.

That's where the babies would go - to parents who DO want them, rather than the careless parents that don't.

Yup - plenty of couples waiting to adopt.. you beat me to it

 

[Trevelyan]

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Originally posted by: Trevelyan

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Tell you what, you worry about yourself and stop carring about what the rest of us do to other people mmmkay?

It's really none of your business.

Fixed.

See, that's the problem with that line of thinking. It totally assumes that abortion affects only the mother. It doesn't consider the child being aborted. It sidesteps the real issue.

Does it effect you?

I don't want murderers running around, but not just because I don't want to be killed by them.

 

[Boztech]

Originally posted by: bluemax

Originally posted by: gigapet
If all abortion ended tommorow who is supposed to support and raise all these unwanted babies? What would be the effects on society?

Like I said before (and, of course, ignored) the waiting list for babies to adopt is miles long. Couples wait 10 years and more.

That's where the babies would go - to parents who DO want them, rather than the careless parents that don't.

I think you're wrong on that. My father was a foster child that was never adopted. Considering the number of orphaned children is constantly increasing at an exponential rate, how could their be more adopters than adoptees? Adopting a child is also a very lenghty and VERY expensive process.

 

[bluemax]

Sadly, BABIES are what people want to adopt.

Kids get left behind.... They want a baby, not a kid who's 6 or older and already entrenched in their old lifestyle. I'll admit I didn't want to adopt my two nephews (8 and 10) because they were "damaged goods"... rotten to their very cores. That's the fear adoptive parents have.... but a baby can be raised their way from square one.

 

[tooltime]

after having kids i look at this issue differently now. i am not sure i could choose us having one now

 

[SlitheryDee]

Originally posted by: Trevelyan

Originally posted by: Boztech
If your wife was drugged, raped, and became pregnant, would you really want her to carry out the term of her pregnancy?

Or if she was a juvenile diabetic and had about a 90% chance of kidney failure or going into DKA during birth and dieing or having other very serious complications with birth?

Honestly, and I know this is easy for me to say, because it hasn't happened to me...

My reaction would first be extreme anger at the person who did this to my wife. The process of forgiving that person would be a long road. I would probably be extremely depressed and horrified for quite some time, and would have some long, tear-filled talks with God.

But, I would still believe the right thing to do would be to keep the baby. This child growing inside my wife would not be guilty because of his father... this child would still be innocent, and to kill him for my sake or my wife's sake would be selfish, and wrong.

I would probably think it my right to take that life, considering the extreme trauma that was endured. But that would not be so.

The rape would be the tragedy, but the child does not have to be.

*in the distance, the singing of angels could be heard...*


Such a saintly statement.

YOUR right to take that life? In that hypothetical situation you wouldn't be subject to any of the real consequences (other than the obvious empathy you would feel towards your wife). Not the rape, not the bearing of a child or the constant reminder that her swelling belly and rapidly changing body chemistry were the result of a most-likely violent and brutal encounter with a man she didn't know. Yet you presume to make this choice for her.

As you said you might feel it "my right to take that life". You make no mention of your wife's feelings other than some vague mention of "extreme trauma that was endured".

And you end with the grand finale "But that would not be so". I am correct in assuming that you were the only one posting right? Seems to me that you just made a decision for someone else, if only in a hypothetical situation.


Make no mistake I think abortion is horrible. The first time I heard a description of a partial birth abortion I expressed nothing but frank disbelief, and after learning about the other methods I am equally disgusted by them. There is one thing that I won't do however, and that's to impose my "better judgement" on others.


This is a central point in the pro-choice mindset IMO. Currently we have the freedom to make mistakes and learn from them; to succeed and prosper because of the lessons we learned in life. We are the results of our successes and failures, our good decisions and our mistakes. The only thing that can stop us is to eliminate our choices. Even though some think that the legal avenues that are available to us are immoral or even evil, there is never a good reason to impose your "better judgement" on anyone else.

 

[imported_artemis]

I think it is wonderful that you are experiencing the joy of bringing a life into this world and becoming a parent. However, not all pregnancies bring this feeling because not all pregnancies are planned, nor are they had by women who are ready to deal with being a mother or going through the emotional burden of carrying a child to term.

I really wish that men could go through what it is like to miss a period and the fear you have going to the drug store and then taking a pregnancy test at home. While it is easy to isolate your situation and focus on all the positive aspects of what you are experiencing, you cannot impose this feeling or your experience as the universal experience of conceiving a child.

I wish you the best, and I am very happy for you. I hope that you do not judge women who make different choices for different reasons. I think only if men had to deal with the getting pregnant and the possibility of derailing their life, would they be sympathetic and understand the importance of reproductive rights. It is easy to stand away from the problem and wax moral philosophy if you have never had to deal with the consequences of an unwanted pregnancy in your body.

 

[Brazen]

Originally posted by: SlitheryDee

Originally posted by: Trevelyan

Originally posted by: Boztech
If your wife was drugged, raped, and became pregnant, would you really want her to carry out the term of her pregnancy?

Or if she was a juvenile diabetic and had about a 90% chance of kidney failure or going into DKA during birth and dieing or having other very serious complications with birth?

Honestly, and I know this is easy for me to say, because it hasn't happened to me...

My reaction would first be extreme anger at the person who did this to my wife. The process of forgiving that person would be a long road. I would probably be extremely depressed and horrified for quite some time, and would have some long, tear-filled talks with God.

But, I would still believe the right thing to do would be to keep the baby. This child growing inside my wife would not be guilty because of his father... this child would still be innocent, and to kill him for my sake or my wife's sake would be selfish, and wrong.

I would probably think it my right to take that life, considering the extreme trauma that was endured. But that would not be so.

The rape would be the tragedy, but the child does not have to be.

*in the distance, the singing of angels could be heard...*


Such a saintly statement.

YOUR right to take that life? In that hypothetical situation you wouldn't be subject to any of the real consequences (other than the obvious empathy you would feel towards your wife). Not the rape, not the bearing of a child or the constant reminder that her swelling belly and rapidly changing body chemistry were the result of a most-likely violent and brutal encounter with a man she didn't know. Yet you presume to make this choice for her.

As you said you might feel it "my right to take that life". You make no mention of your wife's feelings other than some vague mention of "extreme trauma that was endured".

And you end with the grand finale "But that would not be so". I am correct in assuming that you were the only one posting right? Seems to me that you just made a decision for someone else, if only in a hypothetical situation.


Make no mistake I think abortion is horrible. The first time I heard a description of a partial birth abortion I expressed nothing but frank disbelief, and after learning about the other methods I am equally disgusted by them. There is one thing that I won't do however, and that's to impose my "better judgement" on others.


This is a central point in the pro-choice mindset IMO. Currently we have the freedom to make mistakes and learn from them; to succeed and prosper because of the lessons we learned in life. We are the results of our successes and failures, our good decisions and our mistakes. The only thing that can stop us is to eliminate our choices. Even though some think that the legal avenues that are available to us are immoral or even evil, there is never a good reason to impose your "better judgement" on anyone else.

LOL, definately spoken like an unmarried person! You are busy arguing semantics, when I can tell you as a husband, it is obvious he was meaning making the choice together, with his wife, they way a couple with a healthy relationship should. Ironically enough though, you made a very powerful pro-life statement there: "there is never a good reason to impose your "better judgement" on anyone else." Of course this would also include babies in the womb.

In fact, that entire last paragraph is very good reasons for why abortions is so wrong. After reading it, it makes me a little angry at how people could just take that away from those aborted babies.

 

[Brazen]

Originally posted by: artemis
I think it is wonderful that you are experiencing the joy of bringing a life into this world and becoming a parent. However, not all pregnancies bring this feeling because not all pregnancies are planned, nor are they had by women who are ready to deal with being a mother or going through the emotional burden of carrying a child to term.

I really wish that men could go through what it is like to miss a period and the fear you have going to the drug store and then taking a pregnancy test at home. While it is easy to isolate your situation and focus on all the positive aspects of what you are experiencing, you cannot impose this feeling or your experience as the universal experience of conceiving a child.

I wish you the best, and I am very happy for you. I hope that you do not judge women who make different choices for different reasons. I think only if men had to deal with the getting pregnant and the possibility of derailing their life, would they be sympathetic and understand the importance of reproductive rights. It is easy to stand away from the problem and wax moral philosophy if you have never had to deal with the consequences of an unwanted ejaculation in your body.

fixed. Keep in mind that getting an abortion is NOT taking responsibility for your actions on a fun night out.

 

[Pocahontas]

Careful, as long as you have a penis, you have no opinion.

 

[gigapet]

Originally posted by: bluemax

Originally posted by: gigapet
If all abortion ended tommorow who is supposed to support and raise all these unwanted babies? What would be the effects on society?

Like I said before (and, of course, ignored) the waiting list for babies to adopt is miles long. Couples wait 10 years and more.

That's where the babies would go - to parents who DO want them, rather than the careless parents that don't.

Bullshit angelina jolie adopted like 3 kids in a year.

 

[exdeath]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Tell you what, you worry about yourself and stop carring about what the rest of us do mmmkay?

It's really none of your business.

:thumbsup:

One place I strongly support abortion is in cases of genetic mishaps. I.e.: missing all limbs, eyes, brain damage, etc. We would not force a child of ours to live with any conditions we would not want to live with ourselves. A 6th toe or something who cares, but there is a very solid line distinction between tangible viable human life and a bunch of cells and chemicals in the form of a chunk of useless meat. I am not a subscriber to the "every cell is a life" propaganda. Every cell is just that, a cell.

Genetic mistakes happen. Get off the moral high horse, don't try to justify it and don't force a child to live like that because you want to be selfish and avoid the guilt.

 

[loic2003]

Thare are far too many people on the planet already and loads of parents who can't support their young. Too many are consuming too much from the tax payer and producing too much waste. Less people would be a good thing.
Obviously the parents have gone through a lot of thought about this and decided it's for the best. There's thousands of unwanted kids being brought up in homes and having a crappy life (think you'd be happy to know you were unwanted?) being a further burdon on the taxpayer. It's plain unfair to have all these kids simply because you have reservations about mushing up a few cells (you're hardly hacking a baby to death with an axe now, are you?). How about YOU take a few kids into your home? Stop being so sentimental and wake up to the realities of this thing we call life.

Murder? My ass. Do you rememeber being a foetus or baby? No? Neither can anyone else.

 

[Brazen]

Originally posted by: exdeath

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Tell you what, you worry about yourself and stop carring about what the rest of us do mmmkay?

It's really none of your business.

:thumbsup:

That is such a rediculous statement, and only made by simpletons and dullards. By your own statement, you too would in fact be encroaching on what is "none of your business."

And if we really did follow that kind of logic, then we would not have laws or law enforcement at all since if it didn't happen to them (them as in cops and lawmakers) then it would be "none of their business" to get involved in.

 

[nakedfrog]

Originally posted by: Trevelyan

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Originally posted by: Trevelyan

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Tell you what, you worry about yourself and stop carring about what the rest of us do to other people mmmkay?

It's really none of your business.

Fixed.

See, that's the problem with that line of thinking. It totally assumes that abortion affects only the mother. It doesn't consider the child being aborted. It sidesteps the real issue.

Does it effect you?

I don't want murderers running around, but not just because I don't want to be killed by them.

Sweet! Apples and oranges! I like apples and oranges.

 

[Brazen]

Originally posted by: loic2003
Thare are far too many people on the planet already and loads of parents who can't support their young. Too many are consuming too much from the tax payer and producing too much waste. Less people would be a good thing.
Obviously the parents have gone through a lot of thought about this and decided it's for the best. There's thousands of unwanted kids being brought up in homes and having a crappy life (think you'd be happy to know you were unwanted?) being a further burdon on the taxpayer. It's plain unfair to have all these kids simply because you have reservations about mushing up a few cells (you're hardly hacking a baby to death with an axe now, are you?). How about YOU take a few kids into your home? Stop being so sentimental and wake up to the realities of this thing we call life.

Murder? My ass. Do you rememeber being a foetus or baby? No? Neither can anyone else.

Wait, so babies (as in newborns and young children) are just as insignificant (since they have no memory) as a fetus, which is ok to kill. So you are grouping, let's say children under 3 (since then is when the first memories start) together with "ok to kill".

 

[nakedfrog]

Originally posted by: Brazen

Originally posted by: exdeath

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Tell you what, you worry about yourself and stop carring about what the rest of us do mmmkay?

It's really none of your business.

:thumbsup:

That is such a rediculous statement, and only made by simpletons and dullards. By your own statement, you too would in fact be encroaching on what is "none of your business."

How does that statement mean he'd be encroaching on anything?

And if we really did follow that kind of logic, then we would not have laws or law enforcement at all since if it didn't happen to them (them as in cops and lawmakers) then it would be "none of their business" to get involved in.

There sure are a lot of apples and oranges going around today.