Abortion puzzles me

[BunLengthHotDog]

Originally posted by: totalcommand
....not a nutrient sucking mass of cells.

Would you kindly knock this ****** off...you act as if the female body, under normal circumstances, is incapable of sustaining a growing baby / fetus. One of the female bodies main functions is carrying offspring, feeding and providing that growth with said nutrients etc. It's not a life sucking parasite that will kill the host if not gotten rid of ASAP.

In those cases most here agree that aborting is a viable option.

Anyhow,

Here is my view on the subject:

At the point shortly following conception, when the baby/fetus is a single cell...I personally feel life has begun regardless of sentient activity. I base this solely on the possibility of what this single cell is going to become, not what it is at the present time. My wife and I have 2 wonderful children, aged 3 and 10 months old....and while they were not conceived as fully mature infants, they WERE at one point a single cell...I find it very difficult to draw the line at any given point in time during the pregnancy as to when I felt I had a child, and while it wasn't a single cell when I found out we were pregnant (obvious reasons) it still was "my child" when we got the positive back from the doctors.

Basically had we aborted this :

4 Wk Fetus

I would not have these :

Logan and Ansley


NOW, while those are my personal beliefs, I am torn between what I feel is moral (I am NOT a religious nutt....I firmly believe organized religion is a simple money making scheme through fear-mongering and brainwashing) and the basis this country was founded on.

I always say that if I were running for office, I would answer this difficult question like so:

"I personally do not believe in abortion unless the mothers life is in direct danger, not for rapes or incest simply because those instances could be fabricated very easily. However, since its written into our laws, and based on the principles the country was founded on, I think its wrong to push said views on anyone who disagree's with my standpoint on the matter"

And while this may simply be dodging the question entirely, and would likely get me ZERO votes on election day, its whats my thoughts are on this touchy issue.

 

[kt]

Originally posted by: Brazen

Originally posted by: kt

Originally posted by: Brazen

Originally posted by: kt

Originally posted by: Brazen

Originally posted by: exdeath

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Tell you what, you worry about yourself and stop carring about what the rest of us do mmmkay?

It's really none of your business.

:thumbsup:

That is such a rediculous statement, and only made by simpletons and dullards. By your own statement, you too would in fact be encroaching on what is "none of your business."

And if we really did follow that kind of logic, then we would not have laws or law enforcement at all since if it didn't happen to them (them as in cops and lawmakers) then it would be "none of their business" to get involved in.

Way to generalize a statement. And if you are going to use an example to generalize a statement, at least do it right. The business of cops and lawmakers IS to enforce the law. So it is THEIR business to get involved if a law is broken.

Yes, that is EXACTLY right, and in a democracy, it is up to the people to decide what those laws should be. Whether it be laws regarding stealing, or laws regarding killing, etc.

So you are swinging the fence now?

Nope, just pointing out how rediculous the "none of your business" statement is.

I think someone already throw this out several times. I am seeing a lot of apples and oranges thrown around. Think about it.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Hyperblaze

Originally posted by: sandorski
Pro Choice---allow women to determine whether a Fetus should be brought to term
Pro Life---Force women to bring a Fetus to term
Pro Abortion---Force women not to bring a Fetus to term

Clarifications.

# In abortion, no one is hurt since the fetus is not a person.

1. This is simply begging the question. You assume it isn't human, even though it is alive and has human DNA, and then pass judgment that it is not a person.
2. The fetus is alive and death injures it.
3. The fetus has the nature of a human and is injured by killing it by scraping, ripping, and/or sucking its brains out as late term abortions are sometimes done.
4. Then that means the mother has no feelings about the life that has been removed from her womb, that wonderful place that only a woman in her nature has.
1. Does this really leave the woman uninjured? Countless women are psychologically harmed when they kill the child in their womb.


http://www.carm.org/questions/abortion.htm

It certainly is not a Human at Conception, for many weeks it is less than Human, at some point it likely could be termed Human. To insist on No Abortion[/] at any time is just plain stupid and won't be accepted.

 

[Hyperblaze]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Hyperblaze

Originally posted by: sandorski
Pro Choice---allow women to determine whether a Fetus should be brought to term
Pro Life---Force women to bring a Fetus to term
Pro Abortion---Force women not to bring a Fetus to term

Clarifications.

# In abortion, no one is hurt since the fetus is not a person.

1. This is simply begging the question. You assume it isn't human, even though it is alive and has human DNA, and then pass judgment that it is not a person.
2. The fetus is alive and death injures it.
3. The fetus has the nature of a human and is injured by killing it by scraping, ripping, and/or sucking its brains out as late term abortions are sometimes done.
4. Then that means the mother has no feelings about the life that has been removed from her womb, that wonderful place that only a woman in her nature has.
1. Does this really leave the woman uninjured? Countless women are psychologically harmed when they kill the child in their womb.


http://www.carm.org/questions/abortion.htm

It certainly is not a Human at Conception, for many weeks it is less than Human, at some point it likely could be termed Human. To insist on No Abortion[/] at any time is just plain stupid and won't be accepted by me.

Fixed.

That's your call. I on the other hand have a different opinion on the matter.

I will not impose my beliefs on you, but I will voice my opinion.

 

[Bulldog13]

I didn't want to read the whole thread.

Which side is winning and who are the champions for each side ?

 

[totalcommand]

Originally posted by: BunLengthHotDog

Originally posted by: totalcommand
....not a nutrient sucking mass of cells.

Would you kindly knock this ****** off...you act as if the female body, under normal circumstances, is incapable of sustaining a growing baby / fetus. One of the female bodies main functions is carrying offspring, feeding and providing that growth with said nutrients etc. It's not a life sucking parasite that will kill the host if not gotten rid of ASAP.

Then, would you let a random person hook themself up to you physiologically?

fyi, under normal circumstances a women is incapable of sustaining a growing baby. she needs to provide her own hormones, and the mass of cells needs to release its own hormones in order to sustain it.

In those cases most here agree that aborting is a viable option.

Anyhow,

Here is my view on the subject:

At the point shortly following conception, when the baby/fetus is a single cell...I personally feel life has begun regardless of sentient activity. I base this solely on the possibility of what this single cell is going to become, not what it is at the present time. My wife and I have 2 wonderful children, aged 3 and 10 months old....and while they were not conceived as fully mature infants, they WERE at one point a single cell...I find it very difficult to draw the line at any given point in time during the pregnancy as to when I felt I had a child, and while it wasn't a single cell when I found out we were pregnant (obvious reasons) it still was "my child" when we got the positive back from the doctors.

Basically had we aborted this :

4 Wk Fetus

I would not have these :

Logan and Ansley


NOW, while those are my personal beliefs, I am torn between what I feel is moral (I am NOT a religious nutt....I firmly believe organized religion is a simple money making scheme through fear-mongering and brainwashing) and the basis this country was founded on.

I always say that if I were running for office, I would answer this difficult question like so:

"I personally do not believe in abortion unless the mothers life is in direct danger, not for rapes or incest simply because those instances could be fabricated very easily. However, since its written into our laws, and based on the principles the country was founded on, I think its wrong to push said views on anyone who disagree's with my standpoint on the matter"

And while this may simply be dodging the question entirely, and would likely get me ZERO votes on election day, its whats my thoughts are on this touchy issue.

i like your closing thoughts. but the potential for life does not mean that the life actually exists.

 

[Lalakai]

if the system worked properly, there would be no need for abortion. But the support system isn't there and very few people want to fix it or help the situation; much easier to sit on the sidelines and pass judgement.

I strongly dislike the idea and all the consequences of an abortion, but even more so, do i hate the idea of loosing my ability to "choose".

It would be interesting to start a list; everyone who is against abortion, put their name on a world wide list, and they will be automatically selected to become adoptive parents. no choice in the matter, you will be randomly selected to adopt an unwanted child or baby. Then it will be your responsibility to raise the child, care for it, support it, and prepare the child to become an adult.

 

[BunLengthHotDog]

Originally posted by: totalcommand
....not a nutrient sucking mass of cells.


Then, would you let a random person hook themself up to you physiologically?

fyi, under normal circumstances a women is incapable of sustaining a growing baby. she needs to provide her own hormones, and the mass of cells needs to release its own hormones in order to sustain it.

Come on, we are getting into semantics now...Women have a uterus, Men do not...Women carry babies, Men do not...Under "normal" circumstances a pregnant woman will not die due to the pregnancy itself if the pregnancy is a healthy one. And as I stated before, under circumstances where the mothers health is at risk, there is ALMOST universal agreement that mother comes before child / fetus /...or mass of cells as you so eliquently stated.

Of course there is a symbiotic relationship between fetus and mother, that is not what I was referring to...your original implications may have been well hidden, but I took your comments to mean basically

"Ewww, get this thing out of me...its sucking me dry."

Which I highly doubt is the real reason most women get abortions. It's also why your example of someone "attaching themselves to you" is a tad irrelevant

i like your closing thoughts. but the potential for life does not mean that the life actually exists.

I cannot argue with this, and will never attempt to...its merely the basis for my opinion on the matter



Oh, btw...isnt attempting self sustainment a basic sentient process, even if its at the cellular level? Sounds like the mass o' cells is actually doing something to stay "alive" if I am to be literal with your response.

and the mass of cells needs to release its own hormones in order to sustain it.

EDIT: I am the edit whore tonight, I would imagine sentient would be too strong a term for the above, I guess the best term would be "natural" or "instinctual" at best. disregard

 

[totalcommand]

Originally posted by: BunLengthHotDog

Originally posted by: totalcommand
....not a nutrient sucking mass of cells.


Then, would you let a random person hook themself up to you physiologically?

fyi, under normal circumstances a women is incapable of sustaining a growing baby. she needs to provide her own hormones, and the mass of cells needs to release its own hormones in order to sustain it.

Come on, we are getting into semantics now...Women have a uterus, Men do not...Women carry babies, Men do not...Under "normal" circumstances a pregnant woman will not die due to the pregnancy itself if the pregnancy is a healthy one. And as I stated before, under circumstances where the mothers health is at risk, there is ALMOST universal agreement that mother comes before child / fetus /...or mass of cells as you so eliquently stated.

Of course there is a symbiotic relationship between fetus and mother, that is not what I was referring to...your original implications may have been well hidden, but I took your comments to mean basically

"Ewww, get this thing out of me...its sucking me dry."

Which I highly doubt is the real reason most women get abortions. It's also why your example of someone "attaching themselves to you" is a tad irrelevant

The relationship between the mother and fetus is symbiotic but the mother offers life support, and the fetus offers no physiological benefit to the mother in return.

The parasitic nature of this relationship means that the woman's right to her own body supercedes the right of the mass of cells to become a baby. Notice that I am even giving in that a mass of cells could have rights; even if it does, the woman's rights supercede it. I do not believe it does have rights however.

i like your closing thoughts. but the potential for life does not mean that the life actually exists.

I cannot argue with this, and will never attempt to...its merely the basis for my opinion on the matter



Oh, btw...isnt attempting self sustainment a basic sentient process, even if its at the cellular level? Sounds like the mass o' cells is actually doing something to stay "alive" if I am to be literal with your response.

and the mass of cells needs to release its own hormones in order to sustain it.

by no means is self sustainment a basic sentient process. your T cells (immune cells) release their own cytokines (think of it like a hormone)to sustain themselves, yet they are definitely not sentient.

sentience is characterized by self awareness - which a fetus cannot have by the way without a brain or a brain without neurological connections.

edit: in response to your natural, all biological processes are natural. But the T cells do not have rights. in response to your instinctual, T cells have a similar action but have no instinct. And they are not human beings.

 

[SlitheryDee]

Originally posted by: BunLengthHotDog


Here is my view on the subject:

At the point shortly following conception, when the baby/fetus is a single cell...I personally feel life has begun regardless of sentient activity. I base this solely on the possibility of what this single cell is going to become, not what it is at the present time. My wife and I have 2 wonderful children, aged 3 and 10 months old....and while they were not conceived as fully mature infants, they WERE at one point a single cell...I find it very difficult to draw the line at any given point in time during the pregnancy as to when I felt I had a child, and while it wasn't a single cell when I found out we were pregnant (obvious reasons) it still was "my child" when we got the positive back from the doctors.

Basically had we aborted this :

4 Wk Fetus

I would not have these :

Logan and Ansley

What if you replaced that first picture with a picture of a sperm ALMOST about to penetrate an egg. Let's back up a little bit. What if you replaced the picture of the sperm/egg with a photo of you and your wife the day the the child was conceived. Back up a little further, the day you and your wife met. That fetus was the result of a chain of cause and effect that extends far beyond the actual conception, therefore I don't think it's right to mark that as the definitive event that makes a fetus human.

BTW you have beautiful children

 

[BunLengthHotDog]

Originally posted by: SlitheryDee

Originally posted by: BunLengthHotDog


Here is my view on the subject:

At the point shortly following conception, when the baby/fetus is a single cell...I personally feel life has begun regardless of sentient activity. I base this solely on the possibility of what this single cell is going to become, not what it is at the present time. My wife and I have 2 wonderful children, aged 3 and 10 months old....and while they were not conceived as fully mature infants, they WERE at one point a single cell...I find it very difficult to draw the line at any given point in time during the pregnancy as to when I felt I had a child, and while it wasn't a single cell when I found out we were pregnant (obvious reasons) it still was "my child" when we got the positive back from the doctors.

Basically had we aborted this :

4 Wk Fetus

I would not have these :

Logan and Ansley

What if you replaced that first picture with a picture of a sperm ALMOST about to penetrate an egg. Let's back up a little bit. What if you replaced the picture of the sperm/egg with a photo of you and your wife the day the the child was conceived. Back up a little further, the day you and your wife met. That fetus was the result of a chain of cause and effect that extends far beyond the actual conception, therefore I don't think it's right to mark that as the definitive event that makes a fetus human.

BTW you have beautiful children

I was not attempting to sway anyones opinion, merely stating that this is the basis for my thoughts on the issue. It may be a bit of a copout, but then again I have never understood people who are radical left and right on their viewpoints...its so....contradictory, at least to me.

I was not saying that life began at 4 weeks, or any discernable time on the chart for that matter, just that its my personal opinion that "my child" exists from the point its a single cell. How I define when I am a father is something no one will be able to change, thats the great thing about being a person, your ideas are your own.

 

[BunLengthHotDog]

Originally posted by: totalcommand
....words....

I don't pretend to be a biologist / doctor, or anthing remotely close for that matter...perhaps this is why I base my personal decision on morals vs science...I know when its a baby, to me.

Regarding rights....as I stated, while I don't believe in abortion, I think the basis of being an American is the freedom to choose, and not having to worry about others choosing for you

The argument of when it becomes a life will NEVER be decided in our time, the powers that be (science vs religion) are far to polarized for any sort of common ground in this regard....so it becomes a matter of personal opinion at best.

 

[Paratus]

Lets take a look at the 'Life Starts at Conception" idea.

Just about everyone should be able to agree that yes we all started as a fertilized embryo. What about "Personhood Starts at Conception" and "Consititutional Rights Start at Conception"

Thats a much different question. One that Pro Lifers would always answer yes to. Becuase how can you call it murder if the embryo isn't a person and doesn't have rights.

Well if aborting a fertilized embryo is murder, wouldn't naturally aborted fertilized embryo's essentially be "killing" the baby?
Apparently about 60-80% of all fertilized embryos are naturally aborted in this way.

So lets think about that. If you've tried to have a baby and it took you four months to conceive you probably "killed" 1 to 4 babies! So how many of you have had services for your dead kids?


Plus if I did something that might have a 70% chance of killing my kids (like leaving them in a car in the summer for example) I would be arrested for reckless endangerment. So apparently the PRO-Life position is the government should probably arrest anyone who's ever had sex for child endangerment as there is only about a 30% chance that the fertilized egg will be born and 70% chance they will be killed.


There was not much difference between my children 30 minutes after they were born and 30 minutes before. There was a huge difference between 30 minutes before being born and 30 minutes after being conceived.

The simple fact is both sides should agree try and limit the number of abortions by providing strong adoption services, access to emergency contraceptives, abstinence AND sex education of the young.


I always laugh when I see someone complain about how there kid or there wife/GF could go and get an abortion without them knowing. If you had a good relationship with that person to begin with you wouldn't need the government to force them to tell you.

 

[shadow9d9]

Originally posted by: Brazen

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

Originally posted by: Brazen

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Originally posted by: Trevelyan

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Originally posted by: Trevelyan

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Tell you what, you worry about yourself and stop carring about what the rest of us do to other people mmmkay?

It's really none of your business.

Fixed.

See, that's the problem with that line of thinking. It totally assumes that abortion affects only the mother. It doesn't consider the child being aborted. It sidesteps the real issue.

Does it effect you?

I don't want murderers running around, but not just because I don't want to be killed by them.

Sweet! Apples and oranges! I like apples and oranges.

Oh yes, compairing murder to murder and murderers to murderers, oh yeah, the whole apples and oranges sidestep sound _really_ intelligent there.

It isn't comparing murderers to murderers because many people, if not most, do not consider a fetus to be a living human... therefore, these people, do not consider it murder. I could go around saying that you are murdering weeds when you pull them out of your backyard... and then say that if we don't allow murder of humans, we can't allow murder of weeds... Then I could say it is comparing murderers to murderers, like you...

Um, weeds aren't human.

People like me don't consider fetus to be human...

 

[Boztech]

Originally posted by: BunLengthHotDog

Originally posted by: totalcommand
....not a nutrient sucking mass of cells.

Would you kindly knock this ****** off...you act as if the female body, under normal circumstances, is incapable of sustaining a growing baby / fetus. One of the female bodies main functions is carrying offspring, feeding and providing that growth with said nutrients etc. It's not a life sucking parasite that will kill the host if not gotten rid of ASAP.

In those cases most here agree that aborting is a viable option.

Anyhow,

Here is my view on the subject:

At the point shortly following conception, when the baby/fetus is a single cell...I personally feel life has begun regardless of sentient activity. I base this solely on the possibility of what this single cell is going to become, not what it is at the present time. My wife and I have 2 wonderful children, aged 3 and 10 months old....and while they were not conceived as fully mature infants, they WERE at one point a single cell...I find it very difficult to draw the line at any given point in time during the pregnancy as to when I felt I had a child, and while it wasn't a single cell when I found out we were pregnant (obvious reasons) it still was "my child" when we got the positive back from the doctors.

Basically had we aborted this :

4 Wk Fetus

I would not have these :

Logan and Ansley


NOW, while those are my personal beliefs, I am torn between what I feel is moral (I am NOT a religious nutt....I firmly believe organized religion is a simple money making scheme through fear-mongering and brainwashing) and the basis this country was founded on.

I always say that if I were running for office, I would answer this difficult question like so:

"I personally do not believe in abortion unless the mothers life is in direct danger, not for rapes or incest simply because those instances could be fabricated very easily. However, since its written into our laws, and based on the principles the country was founded on, I think its wrong to push said views on anyone who disagree's with my standpoint on the matter"

And while this may simply be dodging the question entirely, and would likely get me ZERO votes on election day, its whats my thoughts are on this touchy issue.

How the hell do you have a 3 month old and a 10 month old? You mean 3 year old and 10 month old?

 

[Brazen]

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

Originally posted by: Brazen

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

It isn't comparing murderers to murderers because many people, if not most, do not consider a fetus to be a living human... therefore, these people, do not consider it murder. I could go around saying that you are murdering weeds when you pull them out of your backyard... and then say that if we don't allow murder of humans, we can't allow murder of weeds... Then I could say it is comparing murderers to murderers, like you...

Um, weeds aren't human.

People like me don't consider fetus to be human...

Your fetus probably wasn't.

 

[JDrake]

Originally posted by: iamtrout

Originally posted by: Hyperblaze
How would YOU like it if your parents had chosen to abort you?

I wouldn't give a sh!t. Think about it...

I'm sure you wouldn't want to fall dead all of a sudden cause someone in the future goes back in time and aborts you :Q

 

[foodfightr]

This post is obviously a plea for controversy. Bored on ATOT? Quick make a post about something relgious, political on controversial!

YAY!!!

 

[dispair]

stance: I do believe medical abortion should be legal. as it stands, a female can kill a child without having a medical abortion, being it by repeatedly being punched in the stomach(sick but works), i've heard of induced sickness(bleach, etc..), or another of possible things. these of which can harm the woman as well as killing the child. while some feel this would be good and serve said person right, they r the same ones crying out for an embryo not to be harmed.

However, I do not agree that abortion is the way to solve the problem created. while some women learn from their lesson in killing the seed of life(note i said "seed"), other's don't and continue to escape responsibility for their ho'ish actions.

To those that have compared the an embryo to an insect. I agree you you. The Hyarchy(sp) man has created is pathetic. To say that our life is any more important than any other life is just sad and shows your deep belief in the false comfort of religion. I myself am usually more upset when i hear about an escaped tiger being shot and killed, than i am about the local drug dealer being shot or about some ghetto thug that got popped.

to the kkk members who r totally against abortion, but all for linching...need i say more?

true story-my son who is 4 yrs old now was not planned. his mother approached me about her pregnancy when she was 5 months along. informing me i was the father. she had told me that she was going to give him up for adoption, rather than abort(as there are many ppl in the world that would like a healthy child b/c they can't have one of their own). anyways, 2 weeks b4 he was to be born, she changed her mind, she decided that she could not bear the thought of giving up a life she carried with her for 9 months. we struggle yes, but he has everything he could want, and we have him. again, i do not believe abortion is the right way to solve an issue(bandaid on a gun shot wound), but i'm not so high on the totem pole to say it should be outlawed or anything.

 

[ijester]

The thought of abortion makes me a little uncomfortable, but I do not think it is my right to tell others what to choose or to do.

I also believe very strongly that rape or incest victims should be allowed to abort if they want to. Why should the rapist be allowed to have a child? Why would anyone want to force a child on someone from those kinds of circumstances? Makes me sick when people try to say that even that type of abortion should be outlawed.

 

[shadow9d9]

Originally posted by: Brazen

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

Originally posted by: Brazen

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

It isn't comparing murderers to murderers because many people, if not most, do not consider a fetus to be a living human... therefore, these people, do not consider it murder. I could go around saying that you are murdering weeds when you pull them out of your backyard... and then say that if we don't allow murder of humans, we can't allow murder of weeds... Then I could say it is comparing murderers to murderers, like you...

Um, weeds aren't human.

People like me don't consider fetus to be human...

Your fetus probably wasn't.

That would include me. All fetus...

 

[0roo0roo]

wow, it still lives!!!

ok how about kittens. if you had to choose between saving a kitten or 10 test tubes of embryos from a burning building whcih would u choose. which has more moral value?

its a freakin cute widdle kitten!!

 

[SlitheryDee]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
wow, it still lives!!!

ok how about kittens. if you had to choose between saving a kitten or 10 test tubes of embryos from a burning building whcih would u choose. which has more moral value?

its a freakin cute widdle kitten!!

I'd save the embryos definitely. Although I don't strictly see them a full fledged humas quite yet, I think their potential humanness outweighs the value of the kitten's life. Hell if I knew they were going to be used for stem cell testing I'd still save them first, then they'd potentially be saving millions of lives.

In any case my opinion is Embryos>Cute widdle kitten.

 

[0roo0roo]

but the cute widdle kitten will burn to death, its lungs being seared by hot gases while its hair and skin are set alight by the flames and it gasps and sputters while flailing about in desperation until it dies.

 

[SlitheryDee]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
but the cute widdle kitten will burn to death, its lungs being seared by hot gases while its hair and skin are set alight by the flames and it gasps and sputters while flailing about in desperation until it dies.

Gruesome imagery, but no-joy. I'm not one of those "all life is equal" people.

Well to clarify in the grand scheme of things all life might indeed be equal, but not to me.

To humans, human life should be more important, and to a degree "potential" human life as well. If, through some screwed up turn of events, killing a kitten would stop someone from having an abortion I'd do that as well.