Abortion puzzles me

[TGS]

Is there any real abortion debate without the personhood at conception or an appeal to emotion arguements? When modern medical facilities can support a baby outside of the mother without any adverse affects, then and only then should the now classified baby be protected with the same laws as everyone else. If the mother was involved in a car accident or was attacked, and died during her treatment if the child was able to be removed and saved through medical means by all accounts this fetus has clearly gone past the bounds of being just a fetus and has entered into a baby state.

People forget that in a pregnancy there are absolutely zero guarantees to having a healthy or even a living child at the end of the normal birthing process. NONE. Equating the large percentage of someone getting pregnant and having a healthy child, to that of an absolute is horrible. Why do people claim that having a healthy child is a blessing to those that actually? For all the complications that can happen during the course of the pregnancy it is an amazing feat, to have everything work out "perfectly".

I have two children and consider myself extremely lucky both came out as well as one could imagine. Though my tie to them is completely emotion, and I would have been caused great sadness if my wife had chosen to give them up. Children are a beautiful thing, and a great responsibility. Though I'm aware some people are not fit, or are not emotionally prepared for raising a child in a suitable environment. This is my reasoning for why I support pro-choice.

If someone could intelligently explain why a person is created at conception(or even before a sustainable birth), without the use of an appeal to emotion, or use of religious doctrine as a basis for conversation I would be more than willing to hear it out.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: WolverineGator
I am a maternal and child health data manager for the State of Florida. We had 213,000 women give birth to 218,000 kids in 2004 (latest data available). About half of those deliveries were paid for by the state (Medicaid (= poor people)) resulting in a significant tax burden.

Many of those who abort eventually have a child and they are better able to raise that child, usually with fewer social and support services. Unwanted babies are more prone to developmental delay in school. You might guess that abortions are disproportionately higher among Medicaid women. If abortion were illegal, unsafe abortion practices would certainly continue. That is common knowledge in the maternal and child health field, but perhaps not so to the lay public (ATOT).

My point is, abortion isn't simply yes/no. There are consequences for everyone: families, schools, government, health care systems, and taxpayers.

Best response yet! :thumbsup:

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: DaShen
Anyone like PIE.... I love PIE.

It goes so well with my :beer: while sitting outside on my lawnchair.

Key lime is so good. I think I will go get some now.

Mmm, key lime pie would taste good with a Corona. Pass me a beer and slice will you?

 

[NaOH]

Originally posted by: Beige
Ultimate birth control for people that are not ready to be parents = no sex
As for rape fictims, I do feel sorry but I still do not support abortion.

Just because you can't get any sex...

 

[Cooler]

Why is this thread here....p&n is down one...

 

[xaeniac]

Thanks for this thread. Abortion is murder!!! No way around it. Abortion is one of the biggest double standards this nation faces. It is just plain WRONG. You are either Pro-Life or ProDeath. These are the two choices. WHich will you choose? God bless these aborted babies.

 

[Garet Jax]

Originally posted by: Arkitech
My wife is 7 months along in her pregnacy and it's so amazing to me to see how new life is developing and growing. Even though the baby is still forming he responds to my voice and my wife's, it's an incredible experience.

Now I realize not every child has the benefit of being born to a pair of loving parents, in some cases babies are born to totally unfit and possibly unstable people. Then there are the cases where some unfortunate women have become the victim of rape and I can totally sympathize with why they feel the need to go for an abortion. But for the most part it seems to me that many people choose abortion because they don't want the responsibility. It's really sad, in fact it's downright heartbreaking because every abortion is taking away the life from a helpless child. Everyone gets up in arms when they hear of child porn, child abuse, molestation and any other atrocity (sp?) commited against kids but why does'nt that type of feeling extend to unborn babies. After all they're the most helpless and have the least means of defending themselves.

I don't want this to degenerate into a flamefest I just felt like stating something I feel strongly about and hopefully sparking some intelligent discussion.

I was indifferent to abortion before having kids - now that I've had them I cannot understand why people do it either.

Having said that - I believe it should be crime to bring children into certain environments.

 

[TGS]

Originally posted by: xaeniac
Thanks for this thread. Abortion is murder!!! No way around it. Abortion is one of the biggest double standards this nation faces. It is just plain WRONG. You are either Pro-Life or ProDeath. These are the two choices. WHich will you choose? God bless these aborted babies.

Allow me to interject for the final time, unless a fitting response is met.

If someone could intelligently explain why a person is created at conception(or even before a sustainable birth), without the use of an appeal to emotion, or use of religious doctrine as a basis for conversation I would be more than willing to hear it out.

 

[NaOH]

Originally posted by: jagec

Originally posted by: totalcommand

Originally posted by: jagec
This thread is pathetic. Clear proof that the moment abortion is mentioned, the IQ of all those arguing drops by 70 points or more. I swear, I haven't seen a single argument yet that isn't based on completely ludicrous assumptions.

hell yes, you can disconnect me. you never consented to have me attached in the first place.

i can count on dipsh!ts like you to thread crap and not make an argument themselves, cause they have none. they can't come up with an original idea.

Your parents never gave you "the talk", did they? You see, when a man and a woman love each other very much...

Oh, and as for "attaching crap to it", forgive me for bringing my moderate views into an abortion debate. Clearly the only acceptible positions I'm allowed to hold are "all abortions should be banned under all circumstances", or "all abortions are A-OK no matter what":roll:

Actually his analogy works very well. But it isn't for "All abortions A-OK". It is mainly for rape victims and etc. Let me word it differently than what he has it.

If someone came in the middle of the night while you were sleeping and hooked himself/herself up to you while you were sleeping would you keep them? Say they needed you or they would die, and they needed your body for 7-9 months. If you were pro-life you would be inclined to keep them no? That is the point he is making. I've studied this in my moral problems class and that is how a writer stated his argument.


I am for pro-choice, but not after the third trimester. At the early development of the baby , it is nothing more than a group of cells that has no rational thought or ANYTHING. Because if you are going to take it that far, all male masturbators are murderers. How about banning condoms and birth control because they PREVENT or kill sperm? The woman, who realized she made a mistake that early should be able to act (so this works out for rape too). If she's a lazy ass, changed her mind, etc and wants to abort after the third trimester then no. That is completely irresponsible.

I like how some of you argue that you should not have sex if you are not ready to have a child. Unless you believed in a religion that did not condone pre marriage sex or was not social capable of getting someone to have sex with would you have such a view. I'd like to see you try to get everyone ( even majority ) to practice abstinence.

Laws we have now are fine, most states don't let you abort after third trimester which I believe is a good middle ground. States which totaly prevent it are just ignorant to what reality is.

 

[FrustratedUser]

I'm bringing the :beer: to this one...

*pulls out lawn chair*

 

[xaeniac]

Originally posted by: TGS

Originally posted by: xaeniac
Thanks for this thread. Abortion is murder!!! No way around it. Abortion is one of the biggest double standards this nation faces. It is just plain WRONG. You are either Pro-Life or ProDeath. These are the two choices. WHich will you choose? God bless these aborted babies.

Allow me to interject for the final time, unless a fitting response is met.

If someone could intelligently explain why a person is created at conception(or even before a sustainable birth), without the use of an appeal to emotion, or use of religious doctrine as a basis for conversation I would be more than willing to hear it out.

Can you say a person is not created? If this being was not killed it would be born would it not? What about partial birth abortion where someone can kill a baby that is 8 mths & 3 weeks old. A baby can be born premature why is this not considered a murder baffles me.

 

[KarenMarie]

Originally posted by: xaeniac
Thanks for this thread. Abortion is murder!!! No way around it. Abortion is one of the biggest double standards this nation faces. It is just plain WRONG. You are either Pro-Life or ProDeath. These are the two choices. WHich will you choose? God bless these aborted babies.

My stance on this subject has been made well known through out this thread, but posts like this ... well... sigh.

 

[Vic]

<- has not read thread, just the OP


Abortion is an artificial diversionary and divisive issue created expressly for the purpose of getting voters with otherwise almost identical political ideologies to divide into different camps. In other words, it gives them something to fight over and an excuse to butt into other peoples' lives and lord over them. They should all mind their own business.

 

[thebigdude]

anybody read what the book "freakonomics" has to say on the subject?

 

[Ryan]

Originally posted by: xaeniac

Originally posted by: TGS

Originally posted by: xaeniac
Thanks for this thread. Abortion is murder!!! No way around it. Abortion is one of the biggest double standards this nation faces. It is just plain WRONG. You are either Pro-Life or ProDeath. These are the two choices. WHich will you choose? God bless these aborted babies.

Allow me to interject for the final time, unless a fitting response is met.

If someone could intelligently explain why a person is created at conception(or even before a sustainable birth), without the use of an appeal to emotion, or use of religious doctrine as a basis for conversation I would be more than willing to hear it out.

Can you say a person is not created? If this being was not killed it would be born would it not? What about partial birth abortion where someone can kill a baby that is 8 mths & 3 weeks old. A baby can be born premature why is this not considered a murder baffles me.

A fetus is not a person.

 

[TGS]

Originally posted by: xaeniac

Originally posted by: TGS

Originally posted by: xaeniac
Thanks for this thread. Abortion is murder!!! No way around it. Abortion is one of the biggest double standards this nation faces. It is just plain WRONG. You are either Pro-Life or ProDeath. These are the two choices. WHich will you choose? God bless these aborted babies.

Allow me to interject for the final time, unless a fitting response is met.

If someone could intelligently explain why a person is created at conception(or even before a sustainable birth), without the use of an appeal to emotion, or use of religious doctrine as a basis for conversation I would be more than willing to hear it out.

Can you say a person is not created? If this being was not killed it would be born would it not? What about partial birth abortion where someone can kill a baby that is 8 mths & 3 weeks old. A baby can be born premature why is this not considered a murder baffles me.

I've already addressed that. When it becomes medical feasible for our current "modern medicine" to sustain a child outside of the mother, then it gets the legal protection we all enjoy when born. Prior to that point there are no guarantees to the "child" being able to live outside of the mother. Giving protection to something that may never live to begin with does not make sense. I do not support abortions if the "Baby" can be supported outside the mother. If the mother at that point has no emotional attachment to the "baby" she should be able to have it removed and placed in the care of the state to be put up for adoption. Do I believe that is a fantastic situation for the child? No. Though I would like to see late term babies put up for adoption, rather than at a point were they can exist without the care of the mother. Which at that point, I would consider it killing a living human baby.


edit:

Originally posted by: Ryan

A fetus is not a person.

I agree. Though there is a point where it becomes a medically viable issue to remove the child from the mother safely. At this point, the child should be removed and placed under medical care of the state.

 

[JDrake]

Sperm cell (23) + egg cell (23) = human baby (46)

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: totalcommand

Actually, my spleen has blown out as well as my left lung. Think of me as an very old aged person on a life support machine, except I want to use YOU and your PRECIOUS BODILY FLUIDS as my life support. Why the hell won't you let me?

You can use mine. But I reseve the right to arbitrarily bash open your skull with a ball-peen hammer and remove your brains if I get bored of you.

Deal?

 

[Jules]

it doesnt have a life untill it gets a job and pays for its own bills

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: joedrake
Sperm cell (23) + egg cell (23) = human baby (46)

Negative.

 

[Trevelyan]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Tell you what, you worry about yourself and stop carring about what the rest of us do to other people mmmkay?

It's really none of your business.

Fixed.

See, that's the problem with that line of thinking. It totally assumes that abortion affects only the mother. It doesn't consider the child being aborted. It sidesteps the real issue.

 

[Trevelyan]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: WolverineGator
I am a maternal and child health data manager for the State of Florida. We had 213,000 women give birth to 218,000 kids in 2004 (latest data available). About half of those deliveries were paid for by the state (Medicaid (= poor people)) resulting in a significant tax burden.

Many of those who abort eventually have a child and they are better able to raise that child, usually with fewer social and support services. Unwanted babies are more prone to developmental delay in school. You might guess that abortions are disproportionately higher among Medicaid women. If abortion were illegal, unsafe abortion practices would certainly continue. That is common knowledge in the maternal and child health field, but perhaps not so to the lay public (ATOT).

My point is, abortion isn't simply yes/no. There are consequences for everyone: families, schools, government, health care systems, and taxpayers.

Best response yet! :thumbsup:

People with disabilities are a financial burden to taxpayers, but no one is arguing for their extermination.

Why not? People it is clear that they are alive, and we all have a duty to protect that life.

A life is a life is a life, regardless of economic, intellectual, physical or genetic status. Step away from that belief, and then you get things like eugenics and genocide being justified.

The debate about abortion always boils down to ONE CLEAR ISSUE: Is a developing human considered to be alive?

1. Yes -> abortion illegal

1. No -> abortion legal

If you want to talk about issues beyond that, fine, but be clear that you then support killing innocent people to benefit others.

 

[Boztech]

This issue hits close to home for my fiance and I. One of her (our) best friends was recently date-raped and became pregant. Yesterday we drove down with her to the clinic in Austin as moral support while she was getting her abortion. Both of us were in full support.

She and my fiance are both Type I diabetics. Carrying out any pregnancy, much less one that was forced upon them, would cause extreme stress on their bodies and could likely lead to kidney failure and possibly death.

You couldn't imagine the emotional burden of just being raped alone that she's gone through, much less the thought of having to carry out the birth of the child, much less the medical complications that lie ahead. It's been three weeks and so far she hasn't even been able to tell her own husband.

 

[JDrake]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: joedrake
Sperm cell (23) + egg cell (23) = human baby (46)

Negative.

It doesn't??

 

[Boztech]

Originally posted by: joedrake

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: joedrake
Sperm cell (23) + egg cell (23) = human baby (46)

Negative.

It doesn't??

No. An embryo is not a baby just like an egg is not a chicken.