AA and AF good in moderation - Tabb sucks.

[Blastman]

Theoretically, when you look at that tunnel, you would think that NV should have better AF coverage, but in practice if you look at a lot of screenshots, ATI and NV are very close and ATI?s AF does a very good job. It?s usually very hard to pick out a situation where NV or ATI has better coverage and the differences are usually quite minor.

? But then again, nvidia takes a MUCH larger hit doing AF. ?

I agree with this. It seems to me that outside a lot of the games that seem to be NV optimized, the NV cards are taking a much larger performance hit using AF than the ATI cards.

THG VGA charts part III ? 10x7? no AF ? 8AF

UT3
5900 ? ? ? 95.5 ? 59.7
9800 ? ? ? 97.5 ? 78.5

Call of Duty
5900 ? ? ? 107.9 ? 46.9
9800 ? ? ? 120.1 ? 70.6

Nascar Thunder
5900 ? ? ? 62.2 ? 42.6
9800 ? ? ? 63.6 ? 62.4

xbit ?10x7 no AA/AF ? 4AA/8AF?

Tron 2.0 ??
5950 ? ? ? 81.0 ? 54.0
9800XT ? ? 90.0 ? 80.0

RTCW ?
5950 ? ? ? 79.0 ? 54.1
9800XT ? ? 75.6 ? 65.9

F1 Challenge
5700U ? ? ? 52 ?28
9600XT ? ? ?44?40

Final Fantasy ?
5700U ? ?? 4939?.4037
9600XT ? ? 4639?4189

X2
5700U ? ? ? 49.7?29.4
9600XT ? ? ? 45.3?37.8

The performance hit using 4AA looks to be about the same for both NV and ATI.

 

[BenSkywalker]

nVidia's AF method can potentially sample more angles but ATi's AF method tends to stay sharper for longer distances on the angles it does sample.

You can just use a negative LOD bias setting to have nV even sharper still, and with comparable aliasing.

fences don't antialias... here's a screenie of my radeon 9700pro @ 4xAA..

The GeForce1(2,3,4,FX) handles AA on fences just fine, but you are correct that your 9700Pro can't. That is entirely ATi's fault, all of nVidia's parts can do it and your R9700Pro is easily capable of it but ATi won't enable FSAA in their drivers, only MSAA.

 

[VIAN]

AF 8x lets me see the texture aliasing better. I don't like that. Texture aliasing.... ewww. this was in DOD

 

[Jeff7181]

VAIN... you're using the lowest possible setting for AA (2X) and you're complaining that you can still see jagged edges... honestly, how rational is that?

 

[VIAN]

Maybe, when you learn how to read the entire article, you can comment, but for now, shut up.

 

[Jeff7181]

Originally posted by: VIAN
Maybe, when you learn how to read the entire article, you can comment, but for now, shut up.

Wow... the maturity level just dropped like a rock.

*EDIT* Maybe your time would be better spent actually researching what Anti-Aliasing and Ansiotropic Filtering do instead of creating useless threads and being a smartass. If you had, you wouldn't have ever started this thread, cause you would have learned that 8X doesn't mean absolutely 100% non-aliased.

 

[Alptraum]

I think it depends on the game you are playing. When I play America's Army I usually leave aa and af set to application preference. I really don't notice much difference between that and 6x and 16x. On the other hand, in IL2 it makes a huge difference. I always play that with 6x and 16x. Its very easy to see the difference there. Its a huge improvement.

 

[VIAN]

The maturity level dropped when you called me VAIN.

I know what they do, but since I never used them, I assummed that they would bring greater benefit, like 3dfx did. I've seen 3dfx AA and it's nothing like this now. maybe on an ATI card since it uses Rotated Grid also.

 

[Jeff7181]

Originally posted by: VIAN
The maturity level dropped when you called me VAIN.

I know what they do, but since I never used them, I assummed that they would bring greater benefit, like 3dfx did. I've seen 3dfx AA and it's nothing like this now. maybe on an ATI card since it uses Rotated Grid also.

What does a typo have to do with maturity? Don't get your shorts in a knot.

 

[Pete]

I have noticed one thing about nVidia's drivers... not EVERY edge gets AA treatment.
TheSnowman answered this quite well, but allow me to elaborate.

Red arrow: Yes, as both ATi and nV use MSAA rather than SSAA as their default AA modes, neither will AA alpha textures (which is what those jaggies are from). You can use nV's "xS" AA modes for that, though, as they include some SSAA along with MSAA. Plus, I believe there are types of alpha textures (alpha blends, IIRC) that don't show aliasing, but I think they're more expensive than regular alpha textures and thus may not be used as much.

Green arrow: This is partly why ATi's AA is hailed as better than nV's, b/c ATi uses a sample grid that is geared to better aliasing reduction in near-horizontal and -vertical edges, whereas nV uses a grid better at 45 degree angles.

Actually I used both nvidia and ati before, and I'd say nvidia's 4xS and 6xS modes are easily comparable to ATI's AA.
AF, I think you'd be hard pressed to find a difference in AF quality. But then again, nvidia takes a MUCH larger hit doing AF.
nV takes a much larger hit doing xS AA, too. 4xS may be comparable to ATi's 4x (better with alpha textures, perhaps worse with regular polygon intersections), but it'll be a lot slower.

The GeForce1(2,3,4,FX) handles AA on fences just fine, but you are correct that your 9700Pro can't. That is entirely ATi's fault, all of nVidia's parts can do it and your R9700Pro is easily capable of it but ATi won't enable FSAA in their drivers, only MSAA.
Only with their xS modes, though, and not at comparable speeds. Still, having the option is far nicer than not, and I'm sure it's a worthwhile setting with older games.

VIAN, McArra's two screenshots show a huge improvement in IQ going from no AA/AF to AA/AF. I'm surprised you won't admit that. The performance hit is a separate issue--you may not find it acceptable on your 5900--but I'm not sure how you can deny the improved IQ.

 

[Acanthus]

1024 x 768, 8xAA, 8xAF

 

[VIAN]

I have found an acceptable config. 2xAA and 4xAF. Near normal performance, but drastically improved image quality.

In racing games, its kind of hard to tell wether these settings show great improvement because everything moves so fast, and screenshots aren't enough. If I want to use 8x mode in NFSU, the resolution must be lowere to 10x7 or else it will not apply AA at all. DOD has tiny jaggies already and not as big as other games, using AA will make many smaller jaggies. I guess it depends on the game.

Anyway, thanks for all the help. -- except for Jeff, who swears it's a typo.

If that picture wasn't so dark.

 

[Ackmed]

Originally posted by: Acanthus

Originally posted by: Pete
What card are you using, VIAN? nV will have poorer AA than ATi (though 8xAA should be equal to ATi's 4x), and their AF doesn't reach as far into the background as ATi's.

Though I must admit I'm baffled why you think both suck. Even the bilinear-only AF on my 9100 is a huge improvement from none at all. And 8xAA really shows jaggies at 16x12?(!)

Dont even start this here. nVs AF is superior to ATis. ATi has better AA. Leave it at that.

http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NTM3LDc=

Its pretty obvious to me which one is better by looking at FL 2004.

 

[Acanthus]

Originally posted by: Ackmed

Originally posted by: Acanthus

Originally posted by: Pete
What card are you using, VIAN? nV will have poorer AA than ATi (though 8xAA should be equal to ATi's 4x), and their AF doesn't reach as far into the background as ATi's.

Though I must admit I'm baffled why you think both suck. Even the bilinear-only AF on my 9100 is a huge improvement from none at all. And 8xAA really shows jaggies at 16x12?(!)

Dont even start this here. nVs AF is superior to ATis. ATi has better AA. Leave it at that.

http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NTM3LDc=

Its pretty obvious to me which one is better by looking at FL 2004.

From the article "Only the resolution was changed when needed."

I will bet cash he dropped back the reso on the NVIDIA cards for those screenshots, its the only reason i could see the FX5950 being faster than the R9800 with AA enabled.

 

[VIAN]

Here is the result.

Regarding the IQ discussion above, ATI looks a lot better than Nvidia.

 

[Acanthus]

Or you could get a monitor that doesn't suck and you wont need AA anymore

2048x1536 resolution, no aa, no af

 

[Gagabiji]

Originally posted by: Acanthus
Or you could get a monitor that doesn't suck and you wont need AA anymore

2048x1536 resolution, no aa, no af

The links bad.

EDIT: N/m, I just saved the linky and it worked. BTW Acanthus, I hate you.

 

[JBT]

you suck and AA and AF are awsome. I hate playing games without them now

 

[VIAN]

Or you could get a monitor that doesn't suck and you wont need AA anymore

2048x1536 resolution, no aa, no af

And you could run at really bad frame rates and not have the pleasure of using AF.

 

[Jeff7181]

Originally posted by: VIAN

Or you could get a monitor that doesn't suck and you wont need AA anymore

2048x1536 resolution, no aa, no af

And you could run at really bad frame rates and not have the pleasure of using AF.

But AF sucks anyway so no worries

 

[Acanthus]

Originally posted by: VIAN

Or you could get a monitor that doesn't suck and you wont need AA anymore

2048x1536 resolution, no aa, no af

And you could run at really bad frame rates and not have the pleasure of using AF.

My framerates are fine playing CoD at this resolution... you take a larger hit from FSAA than you do from 2048. I agree with AF, but my FX5600 just cant push 2048 + AF, however i believe a high end 9800 or 5950 would easily push this.

 

[Nebor]

Someone take away VIAN's keyboard...

 

[Gagabiji]

Originally posted by: JBT
I hate playing games without them now

Why, what happend?

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: Nebor
Someone take away VIAN's keyboard...

All he does is put useless threads on the forum. I dont understand how AA and AF suck. Go play a game without any then play a game with 8/16 @ 1600x1200 on 21" LCD. Then tell me it sucks. VAIN, you suck.

 

[BFG10K]

You can just use a negative LOD bias setting to have nV even sharper still, and with comparable aliasing.

How does a negative LOD counter the fact that ATi can sample double the amount of texels that nVidia can?