A warning to prospective 7850 owners

[blastingcap]

I think AMD is being extremely disingenuous in their marketing of the 7000 series. Starting from the 7950 downwards there are no reference designs available to consumers but yet they supply reviews based on reference designs! This means consumers are at the mercy of whatever cost cutting measures AIB partners implement in their design. One of the most common practice is putting an impressive looking cooler on the gpu chip but omitting heat-sinks on the VRM section and using cheap non voltage tweakable voltage regulators in place of the digital ones in the review samples. Result of which is impressive advertised overclocking potential that buyers based a large part of their decision on only to end up disappointed upon receiving the final product which is unlike anything the reviews implied. And all that despite the fact that the 7000 series is most hideously priced series of gpu ever. :thumbsdown:

It cuts both ways because many (most?) nonreference cards have BETTER cooling than the reference cards, at least in cases with good airflow. You make it sound like most nonreference cards are worse than reference, when that is not the case and is probably the other way around.

 

[ocre]

Sickbeast,

Im not trying to be a dink, but you've made this point in about 25 threads already.

Its not Powercolors fault either. I've used tons of there cards without issue. They are fine for Stock or a moderate O/C. I honestly think if you took your cooler off and put some Artic Silver 5 on it, then reseat the cooler, it'd knock 4-5 degrees off.

You bought the cheapest 7850 on the market. They make dual fan / 3-5 heatpipe coolers on the more expensive models for a reason.

You bought a single fan card to do a High O/C on. That alone was your first mistake. 1200-1250 is a 40-50% overclock. You honestly can't expect that out of the base single fan model of any card.



EDIT: What is your case cooling like? What is your room temps and humidity like? What do you have for case fans?

I recently upgraded cases to get the big 200mm side fan, and it knocked 3-4 degrees off again.

and he already explained his gripe clearly like 25 times or more in this thread. Its a very valid point.

He bought the plain jane reference design 7850 based on the review he seen that was supposed to be on a "reference" design. It turned out that his temps are way hotter than that in the review. I believe you already know this.

He has every right to speak his frustrations here. He is actually trying to prevent others from the same mistake. This is actually a great thing. This thread and his post may pain people for whatever reason but think of the bigger picture. It might help another from falling victim of the same mistake.

Whether we agree with his complaints is irrelevant. The only point of this thread is to give warning to prospective 7850 owners. A heads up from his perspective. It does stand the chance of helping other that have too high expectations and "reference" 7850s.

 

[blastingcap]

and he already explained his gripe clearly like 25 times or more in this thread. Its a very valid point.

He bought the plain jane reference design 7850 based on the review he seen that was supposed to be on a "reference" design. It turned out that his temps are way hotter than that in the review. I believe you already know this.

He has every right to speak his frustrations here. He is actually trying to prevent others from the same mistake. This is actually a great thing. This thread and his post may pain people for whatever reason but think of the bigger picture. It might help another from falling victim of the same mistake.

Whether we agree with his complaints is irrelevant. The only point of this thread is to give warning to prospective 7850 owners. A heads up from his perspective. It does stand the chance of helping other that have too high expectations and "reference" 7850s.

the review he read clearly said it was going to be different than cards available at retail

 

[Silverforce11]

I did my research prior to getting a 7850,

Gigabyte no good, fan makes annoying whine noise.
Asus too damn long but very good cooling and vcore support.
Sapphire twin-fans seem to be as good as Asus.
HIS can vcore, but their cooling is terrible with a CPU like design cooler.
Powercolor, avoid. Crap cooler. At the time I didn't know it cannot be vcore modded.

 

[3DVagabond]

I did my research prior to getting a 7850,

Gigabyte no good, fan makes annoying whine noise.
Asus too damn long but very good cooling and vcore support.
Sapphire twin-fans seem to be as good as Asus.
HIS can vcore, but their cooling is terrible with a CPU like design cooler.
Powercolor, avoid.

With Powercolor you just say "avoid" with no reason given. Mind saying what made you come to that decision?

 

[StinkyPinky]

I've got a reference PowerColor. No problem with it. I also had a reference PowerColor 5850 and that was great.

 

[WMD]

It cuts both ways because many (most?) nonreference cards have BETTER cooling than the reference cards, at least in cases with good airflow. You make it sound like most nonreference cards are worse than reference, when that is not the case and is probably the other way around.

Which fantasy world do you live in where manufacturers puts better and more expensive components than reference on a Graphics card instead of cheaper ones and sell them at the same cost.

 

[WMD]

I did my research prior to getting a 7850,

Gigabyte no good, fan makes annoying whine noise.
Asus too damn long but very good cooling and vcore support.
Sapphire twin-fans seem to be as good as Asus.
HIS can vcore, but their cooling is terrible with a CPU like design cooler.
Powercolor, avoid. Crap cooler. At the time I didn't know it cannot be vcore modded.

See if you do alot of prior research then fine but most average buyers are just going to read the glowing reviews about 7850 and its incredible value/ overclocking potential then fall into the same trap OP did.

 

[3DVagabond]

See if you do alot of prior research then fine but most average buyers are just going to read the glowing reviews about 7850 and its incredible value/ overclocking potential then fall into the same trap OP did.

I don't think it deserves to be called a trap. It's not like there's multiple 7850's with different GPU's different mem bus, different spec memory, etc... as we sometimes see. It's just the base model.

I don't know for certain which reviews the OP read, but typically when reviewers do these O/C runs they set the fans @ 100%. This is stated in the reviews, but I don't think a lot of people stop and think about it. I don't know of too many people who would put up with their fans @ 100%. These things sound like they're revving for liftoff with the fans on full. Reference coolers aren't designed to keep the cards cool when run out of spec.

In actually, there aren't any true "reference" 7850's being marketed. The 7850 (like the 6850 before it) is a model that the AIB's are free to build, or have built, themselves. So, bottom of the line is going to be a true budget build.

 

[blackened23]

I don't quite get this. Every GPU i've ever owned has gotten warm unless I used manual fan, and I assume you're using auto fan. Auto fan always gets warm because the fan steppings aren't aggressive. Reference design + auto fan = higher temps, i've never owned a gpu where this wasn't the case. The voltage lock, I would have an issue with that as well, not sure whats going on there.

In fact, if anyone owns a reference card of ANYTHING 560ti or higher, 6850 or higher that doesn't get 75C or warmer in furmark with Auto fan, i'd probably call shens. I can't think of any reference card that doesn't get warm with auto fan......if a review got 60c they were probably using manual, i'm almost sure of it.

 

[blastingcap]

I don't think it deserves to be called a trap. It's not like there's multiple 7850's with different GPU's different mem bus, different spec memory, etc... as we sometimes see. It's just the base model.

I don't know for certain which reviews the OP read, but typically when reviewers do these O/C runs they set the fans @ 100%.

It was already discussed way back in this thread. OP relied on Anandtech's review but didn't read paragraph 2 apparently; and the caption specifically stated that board partners would get the center-mounted design. Also, I always thought AT runs cards at auto-fan unless they say otherwise?

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=33360543&postcount=34

Which fantasy world do you live in where manufacturers puts better and more expensive components than reference on a Graphics card instead of cheaper ones and sell them at the same cost.

Depends on the design. If you get a single-fan center-mounted design, that almost SCREAMS "cheaper components" no matter who makes it. If you get a ASUS DirectCU design that practically begs you to voltage tweak it, are you seriously arguing it is WORSE than the reference design, for cases with good airflow? Is a Sapphire OC edition or MSI Lightning worse than reference? How about a Sapphire Toxic or Atomic?

By the way in case you missed it the first time, you would be foolish to think that all companies use the same cooler even if they look similar under the hood. For instance the HIS and Sapphire looked similar for the 6850 designs, but look at how pathetic the XFX and HIS coolers were once you peeked under the shroud: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?261174-OCed-6850-vs-OCed-6870

 

[jacktesterson]

and he already explained his gripe clearly like 25 times or more in this thread. Its a very valid point.

He bought the plain jane reference design 7850 based on the review he seen that was supposed to be on a "reference" design. It turned out that his temps are way hotter than that in the review. I believe you already know this.

He has every right to speak his frustrations here. He is actually trying to prevent others from the same mistake. This is actually a great thing. This thread and his post may pain people for whatever reason but think of the bigger picture. It might help another from falling victim of the same mistake.

Whether we agree with his complaints is irrelevant. The only point of this thread is to give warning to prospective 7850 owners. A heads up from his perspective. It does stand the chance of helping other that have too high expectations and "reference" 7850s.

The review also clearly stated there card is not the same as the Retail version to be released.

It sucks, I've acknowledged that. You get what you pay for. I've learned that lesson many times.

I also stated I've used Powercolor in the past with no problems and wouldn't hesitate to buy another.

The issue is the version of the card he bought for what he wants to do with it. He bought the wrong card.

Edit:

Honest Quick Question: "Reference", does this guarantee the card to perform the same as all other "Reference" cards, aka cooling? Are they built with the exact same materials across brands? Or are they free to use what they want as long as the style of cooling remains the same?


Also, I would be surprised if a Mod isn't available with time to increase his voltage. He also already ordered a cooler for it.

 

[KingFatty]

If you plan to get an aftermarket cooler, there can be a value to finding a card with a cheap cooler, because that card will be priced lower. Especially if you are just going to remove its cooler to replace it, you would seek out a card that doesn't make you pay a lot for the cooler that comes with the card. This is especially true when the circuit board is sufficient for overclocking and the card is only held back by a cheap cooler.

 

[Stuka87]

Edit:

Honest Quick Question: "Reference", does this guarantee the card to perform the same as all other "Reference" cards, aka cooling? Are they built with the exact same materials across brands? Or are they free to use what they want as long as the style of cooling remains the same?


Also, I would be surprised if a Mod isn't available with time to increase his voltage. He also already ordered a cooler for it.

Reference refers to the PCB using the exact same design as the boards that AMD sent to its partners. There are no changes/optimizations. These are typically only the first round of cards, and custom boards come later. In the case of the 7970, the first round was all reference. In the case of the 7950, there wasn't a reference design, each board was different from each manufacturer.

When it comes to the cooler, typically a "Reference Card" uses a reference cooler. But this is not always the case. So you need to keep an eye out for any variances.

 

[Stuka87]

Which fantasy world do you live in where manufacturers puts better and more expensive components than reference on a Graphics card instead of cheaper ones and sell them at the same cost.

Sorry dude, but this comment is total fail. Many non-reference designs have far better components and designs than reference. Sure they are some cheap cards out their, but if you look at a reference next to a Sapphire/Asus/MSI OC card, you will see some big differences. Same goes for the nVidia side with EVGA/MSI/etc.

 

[SickBeast]

and he already explained his gripe clearly like 25 times or more in this thread. Its a very valid point.

He bought the plain jane reference design 7850 based on the review he seen that was supposed to be on a "reference" design. It turned out that his temps are way hotter than that in the review. I believe you already know this.

He has every right to speak his frustrations here. He is actually trying to prevent others from the same mistake. This is actually a great thing. This thread and his post may pain people for whatever reason but think of the bigger picture. It might help another from falling victim of the same mistake.

Whether we agree with his complaints is irrelevant. The only point of this thread is to give warning to prospective 7850 owners. A heads up from his perspective. It does stand the chance of helping other that have too high expectations and "reference" 7850s.

I appreciate that, ocre. It's exactly what I was trying to say.

Guys I don't think all the reviews pointed out the difference between the "reference" coolers, either. I read several 7850 reviews before I made my purchase.

Anyhow, over time hopefully tools will become available to make me happier with my purchase. I love overclocking and not having voltage control is no fun for me. It's like buying a Corvette with an automatic transmission.

 

[railven]

What exactly am I being warned about? After reading this whole thread these points are made:

1) user bought a card based on review findings AND other users' input.
2) user's card didn't match review findings (that were based on other cards) nor other users' input.
3) user confirmed his card matches the review of the card he bought that was released after he bought the card

Again, what am I being warned about? Not trying to make light of this issue, but everything seems conclusive.

Clearly the user's card is inferior to the countless other users' who have a similar product (that being the HD 7850). Also, clearly the card is inferior through testing as determined by a review of the product (regardless when the user bought, it wouldn't have affected the review.)

It just seems a case of the buyer getting the shortest straw.

So am I being warned away from HD 7850's or Powercolor HD 7850's? Because regardless of the herd mentality that the user is trying to accuse of, I haven't seen enough evidence to conclude his case is a the norm.

I bought a GTX 460 sold on the OC'ing hype monster that this exact forum created. My card didn't OC to the moon, I didn't create a thread warning users. I just accepted I got a bad card. I should have bought the GTX 470 from the start. Egg was on my face.

 

[SickBeast]

I'm not explaining it again at this point, railven. It seems some people would rather attack my credibility rather than accepting this thread for what it is -- something useful to help steer other people away from "reference" 7850s and to point out the discrepancy between what the reviewers have and what is actually sold on the market. Seeing the cooler dismantled is also useful.

 

[SickBeast]

If you plan to get an aftermarket cooler, there can be a value to finding a card with a cheap cooler, because that card will be priced lower. Especially if you are just going to remove its cooler to replace it, you would seek out a card that doesn't make you pay a lot for the cooler that comes with the card. This is especially true when the circuit board is sufficient for overclocking and the card is only held back by a cheap cooler.

I hope that's the case in my situation.

The PCB could probably be the same as the PCB on the Sapphire cards. I hear that they are made in the same factory.

I would be willing to guess that all the current 7850s use the same PCB and components at this point.

Anyhow, with a good bios and better cooling I will try for 1400mhz.

 

[railven]

I'm not explaining it again at this point, railven. It seems some people would rather attack my credibility rather than accepting this thread for what it is -- something useful to help steer other people away from "reference" 7850s and to point out the discrepancy between what the reviewers have and what is actually sold on the market. Seeing the cooler dismantled is also useful.

I never attacked your credibility. Again, what "reference" model are you referring too? Because, again, after reading this giant thread - it seems your card matches the review you read about by your own admission, yet you blanket statement all the "reference" designs.

Outside of pointing out you got a bad card, through your own findings and supported through a review you found, what am I being warned against? Reference cards? I only buy reference cards because I buy early. My reference GTX 460 was a dud in a sea of glowing reviews. And I'm not trying to turn this into red vs green but that's just the most recent example of where I bought a card based on OC hype. My HD 7970 seems to be above average as I'm getting lower temps and better noises versus what I saw in most reviews.

So am I being warned against reference HD 7850's or Powercolor reference HD 7850's because I've seen you justify one claim, but some how applied that to all cards.

 

[jacktesterson]

I think AMD is being extremely disingenuous in their marketing of the 7000 series. Starting from the 7950 downwards there are no reference designs available to consumers but yet they supply reviews based on reference designs! This means consumers are at the mercy of whatever cost cutting measures AIB partners implement in their design. One of the most common practice is putting an impressive looking cooler on the gpu chip but omitting heat-sinks on the VRM section and using cheap non voltage tweakable voltage regulators in place of the digital ones in the review samples. Result of which is impressive advertised overclocking potential that buyers based a large part of their decision on only to end up disappointed upon receiving the final product which is unlike anything the reviews implied. And all that despite the fact that the 7000 series is most hideously priced series of gpu ever. :thumbsdown:

I paid $249 with free shipping for my Asus 7850 that took 10 minutes to get it stable at 1200/1450, running for 2-3 weeks straight now... and generally performs better than a 7950.

I don't think it's priced bad at all... anyone can get 7870 performance or better without even changing the voltage.

People are buying brand new 580's for $340 still.

 

[IAmNetburst]

Thanks for this thread. There is an HIS 7850 on sale that is $220 AR. I was strongly considering it, and now I'm leaning away from it.

I really appreciate how well the OP interacted with critiques, as well as how some others (e.g. Fatty King) have been constructive in their responses. The pictures of the broken down HIS and XFX cards were particularly telling. Looking at the HIS model, you can see the heat fins under the fan, instead of just around it (although, as has been pointed out, the MSI Cyclone fins typically are also "just around" the fan). I wonder how the HIS 7850 performs, seeing as how the cooler looks to be a little different from previous cheap HIS models.

I am amazed at how many mindless, irrational responses this has garnered from people who think they are responding rationally. "You get what you pay for" is the type of aphorism that is a red flag for "I DISAGREE, AND THAT MAKES YOU STUPID." Seriously, at what point would the complaint/warning have been valid, if not 25C? Maybe 40C? What difference in temps would have been reasonable to expect, given that the cooler in the review still looked similar even if it was stated as being different? Did anyone think of that before responding? Is a $10-$20 difference actually supposed to net 30C, and so OP should happy with 25? Where is this list of guidelines? This is all rhetorical, of course, as many can't be bothered to think before responding. *

*The above post may contain unsafe levels of irony.

 

[marlinman]

I'm not explaining it again at this point, railven. It seems some people would rather attack my credibility rather than accepting this thread for what it is -- something useful to help steer other people away from "reference" 7850s and to point out the discrepancy between what the reviewers have and what is actually sold on the market. Seeing the cooler dismantled is also useful.

I bought a stock-clocked Sapphire 7850, which is certainly a "reference" 7850 if your Powercolor is. After 1 hour of error-free OCCT torture @ 1175/1513, temp is 67C and auto fan is on 41%. I have adjusted neither power control, nor the default voltage of 1.138V, and can't wait to find out what this thing is capable of when I have the courage to play with these settings. W1zzard at TPU wrung 1140/1580 out of the AMD reference design sample he reviewed, with a load temp of 71C. I know which card I'd rather be gaming with.

Your credibility is not helped by your habit of making double posts when one would do. I've had to completely revise my long-standing assumption that an AF user's high post count adds worth to their contributions. (IAmNetburst has however somewhat restored my faith in this assumption...).

Edit: TPU results "achieved with the default fan and voltage settings as defined in the VGA BIOS".

 

[KompuKare]

I'm not explaining it again at this point, railven. It seems some people would rather attack my credibility rather than accepting this thread for what it is -- something useful to help steer other people away from "reference" 7850s and to point out the discrepancy between what the reviewers have and what is actually sold on the market. Seeing the cooler dismantled is also useful.

While I think it may have been a good idea to actually call out Powercolor in the thread title, I have to agree with the bolded. For the same reason I joined in the critique of the GTX680's 'variable' boost (especially how some sites seem to have had 'golden' samples for review), I am not happy to see reviews which do not reflect reality.

AIB may love not having to use reference designs at launch, but what AMD have to realize (and I'm sure Nvidia have/will do similar) is if at launch there are poor and good cards, those who want to buy now will be more likely to hesitate negating their marketing push etc.

These kind of antics cut both ways. Of course months after launch there usually are tons of cards mis-trading on a model name (DDR3 vs GDDR5, harvested parts different shaders counts etc.), but informed enthusiast can usually avoid those.

 

[SickBeast]

How do double posts or post count have anything to do with credibility? Are you serious?