A thought about the keystone pipeline

[cybrsage]

so Obama called their bluff...

There was no bluff, you can be sure the Republicans will talk about how Obama killed union jobs.

 

[Texashiker]

Not to completely dispute what you're saying Texashiker, but I never said ALL of the refineries are along the gulf coast. There's a refinery (Pennsylvanian crude oil) about 45 minutes from me in Bradford, PA. American Refining Group, Inc.; they make Brad-Penn lubricants among other things.

That company probably finishes the refining process.

When you start talking about refining raw crude:

Towers - needed to separating dirt, rocks,, trash from the oil. These towers are usually a couple of hundred feet tall and have alternating trays. When the trays get full of debris, sub-contractors are brought in to remove/replace/clean the trays. Then you have disposal of the material.

Catalytic Cracking unit - Motiva in Port Arthur Texas is home to one of the largest cat cracker units in the world.

Coke - and not coke-a-cola. Coke is usually brought in on barges and ships.

If a refinery is going to make gasoline, they are going to need a massive amount of coke and catalytic.

Storage tank yards
Heat exchangers
Pressure vessels
Cooling towers

Once the first part of the refining is done, then the oil can be shipped to smaller refineries for custom products.

~ EDIT ~

Lets say that some company builds a land based refinery, where there is no nearby port or ship channel, they are going to have ship massive amounts of certain chemicals in by railcar. Keep in mind, the refineries along the gulf coast use barges and ships to transport stuff like coke. For a land based refinery, you are going to have a way to ship a barge load of coke over land to the refinery.

I am not saying it can not be done, but the logistics are going to be rough. Then, the refinery can only produce as much such as rail or truck can bring in the needed materials.

There is a reason why the major refineries are near water. And that is so raw materials can be brought in by the shipload, instead of the truckload.

 

[Darwin333]

What is inaccurate? (Other than the tongue in cheek Obama remark.)

1. The Midwest is currently receiving a discount on their crude. The only thing that would happen is the discount would be removed, period. Frankly, they should feel lucky that they have been getting a discount for so long.

2. Obama supports the southern portion of the pipeline and Transcanada is proceeding with building it which will connect Cushing and the Gulf Coast. So regardless if the northern portion of the pipeline gets built there will be a pipeline built to relieve the oversupply of oil at the Cushing storage facility. If this means the midwest has to pay actual market rates instead of receiving a discount it will happen regardless if the section we are discussing gets built.

At the time, Obama encouraged TransCanada to pursue the southern portion of the pipeline that would, in the short term, relieve a bottleneck of crude at Midwestern refineries.[/b]

 

[Darwin333]

You'll need to support that in the face of this-

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politi...ne-How-much-would-it-really-help-US-consumers

Much of the oil we import is refined & exported right back out of the country, so we're just switching sources for the raw material.

Switching it from tanker based to state of the art brand new pipeline is a good thing in and of itself. Having a pipeline carrying all that crude through our borders and our own refineries refining it is a really damn good thing should some shit happen in the ME that causes their oil exports to be interrupted. Importing raw material and exporting refined product makes US businesses money, helps the trade deficit, and provides good paying jobs. Whats the problem again?

We also need to recognize that tar sand oil is basically strip mining on a vast scale, and also who stands to benefit-

http://mpirg.blogspot.com/2011/02/alberta-tar-sands-uplifting-tales-from.html

I don't know why that is relevant since the oil will be extracted regardless of where it eventually gets shipped.

 

[Ausm]

Rather than sending all that oil to refineries along the gulf coast, why not build a new refinery somewhere in the interior of our country - well out of reach of all those nasty hurricanes that can shut a refinery down. Wouldn't that be better for national security? Or is there some other reason not to build a refinery up there?

That would require a massive investment in infrastructure something that would never get passed by the 112th Congress unless Big oil was to profit substantially.

 

[Darwin333]

Obama didn't completely nix the pipline he said no now because Republicans wanted to force a decision before environmental studoies were complete so Obama called their bluff.

Meanwhile if people think these studies are not a big deal here's a story of a spill containing the same kind tar sands as Keystone would carry.

http://motherjones.com/blue-marble/2012/03/fallout-kalamazoo-tar-sands-spill-keystone

We have been over this before, Obama's own state department (READ: Not done under Bush, done under Obama) has completed environmental studies already. They have been signed, sealed, and delivered. You can read it yourself online right now.

 

[nobodyknows]

That company probably finishes the refining process.

When you start talking about refining raw crude:

Towers - needed to separating dirt, rocks,, trash from the oil. These towers are usually a couple of hundred feet tall and have alternating trays. When the trays get full of debris, sub-contractors are brought in to remove/replace/clean the trays. Then you have disposal of the material.

Catalytic Cracking unit - Motiva in Port Arthur Texas is home to one of the largest cat cracker units in the world.

Coke - and not coke-a-cola. Coke is usually brought in on barges and ships.

If a refinery is going to make gasoline, they are going to need a massive amount of coke and catalytic.

Storage tank yards
Heat exchangers
Pressure vessels
Cooling towers

Once the first part of the refining is done, then the oil can be shipped to smaller refineries for custom products.

~ EDIT ~

Lets say that some company builds a land based refinery, where there is no nearby port or ship channel, they are going to have ship massive amounts of certain chemicals in by railcar. Keep in mind, the refineries along the gulf coast use barges and ships to transport stuff like coke. For a land based refinery, you are going to have a way to ship a barge load of coke over land to the refinery.

I am not saying it can not be done, but the logistics are going to be rough. Then, the refinery can only produce as much such as rail or truck can bring in the needed materials.

There is a reason why the major refineries are near water. And that is so raw materials can be brought in by the shipload, instead of the truckload.

http://cleantechnica.com/2008/07/02/conocophillips-refinery/

Billings, MT plays host to three petroleum refineries, which fuel the local economy. Source: Clean Technica (http://s.tt/12udt)​

 

[Texashiker]

http://cleantechnica.com/2008/07/02/conocophillips-refinery/

What is the output of said refinery, as compared to a refinery with a water port?

Edit, I think I found my answer in the linked article

This plant, the smallest of the ConocoPhillips refineries, sits on 200 acres in very close proximity to the town

Source: Clean Technica (http://s.tt/12udt)

There is a big difference between a 200 acre refinery, and a refinery that is 6 miles in diameter like in the Port Arthur Texas area.

The old Texaco refinery in Port Arthur has a road that goes all the way around the refinery. The road is for security personal to be able to drive the entire fence line. The road is about 18 - 19 miles long.

I will take your 200 acre land based refinery, and raise you with a 3,800 acre refinery.

 

[kage69]

Ok, there was a bluff, but you can be sure the Republicans will talk about how Obama killed John Boehners investments!

Fixed...


Any blame for the Keystone project should be placed directly at the GOP's feet. If they try to make this an ongoing story, it will be emphasized that thanks to their attempt to fabricate an election year issue against Obama, the project will now be delayed additional years. They will also look like divided fools thanks to the support Obama has with the Nebraska Repubs over this, and the entire "We need this pipeline asap!" line of thinking will be found unwarranted in a day where this country is selling more oil than it uses.

The GOP is trying to make political hay out of a business deal that has been draped with the Flag, and instead put the pitchfork through their boot. Yeah, sure, let's roll that around the airwaves for a few more months, knock yourself out.

 

[nobodyknows]

What is the output of said refinery, as compared to a refinery with a water port?

It's a refinery and it is making money and suppoirting the local economy. It doesn't matter how big it is, the fact they have 3 refineriers there disproves your point.

Here's some info on another fefinery there, it emplys 250 people.

http://www.exxonmobil.com/Corporate/Files/billings_brochure.pdf

 

[Texashiker]

It's a refinery and it is making money and suppoirting the local economy. It doesn't matter how big it is, the fact they have 3 refineriers there disproves your point.

I never said a land based refinery is impossible.

 

[nobodyknows]

What is the output of said refinery, as compared to a refinery with a water port?

Edit, I think I found my answer in the linked article



Source: Clean Technica (http://s.tt/12udt)

There is a big difference between a 200 acre refinery, and a refinery that is 6 miles in diameter like in the Port Arthur Texas area.

The old Texaco refinery in Port Arthur has a road that goes all the way around the refinery. The road is for security personal to be able to drive the entire fence line. The road is about 18 - 19 miles long.

I will take your 200 acre land based refinery, and raise you with a 3,800 acre refinery.

we have lots of land, I'm sure a refinery could be built just as big in the midwest as in Texas. LOL!!

 

[nobodyknows]

I never said a land based refinery is impossible.

You are mincing words.

 

[monovillage]

Just a small article.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0921/p11s02-usec.html

The current refinery squeeze has been building for years. For the past two decades, deregulation and low profits have combined to push the industry into consolidation. Partly because of environmental regulations, it was cheaper to expand existing refineries than to build new ones. In 1981, the US had 324 refineries with a total capacity of 18.6 million barrels per day, the Department of Energy reports. Today, there are just 132 oil refineries with a capacity of 16.8 million b.p.d., according to Oil and Gas Journal, a trade publication.

This bottleneck is expected to keep pressure on gas prices - and politicians. Both parties are weighing measures to loosen environmental and permitting constraints for refineries. Rep. John Shadegg (R) of Arizona is set to offer a bill to streamline federal regulations governing refineries, Congressional Daily reports.

 

[nonlnear]

the project will now be delayed additional years.

Being delayed "additional years" isn't really an option. If Keystone XL gets delayed additional years the line will most likely just get laid to Kitimat BC.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Not to completely dispute what you're saying Texashiker, but I never said ALL of the refineries are along the gulf coast. There's a refinery (Pennsylvanian crude oil) about 45 minutes from me in Bradford, PA. American Refining Group, Inc.; they make Brad-Penn lubricants among other things.

Pennsylvania crude has a high parafin content, this is why most of the oil in that region is used to make lubricants (motor oil & grease) rather than diesel, kerosene, and gas.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

we have lots of land, I'm sure a refinery could be built just as big in the midwest as in Texas. LOL!!

The one important thing you're missing is the water used to cool the process and equipment. This one of the main reasons refineries are built close to the ocean or rivers.

 

[Texashiker]

You are mincing words.

The links you posted reaffirmed my post.

Its going to be almost impossible for a land based refinery to produce as much gasoline, or other refined products, like what a water based refinery can do.

You can not transport as much coke (or other needed chemicals) by rail car as you can by ship, its physically impossible.

we have lots of land, I'm sure a refinery could be built just as big in the midwest as in Texas. LOL!!

Its not a matter of building a refinery, its a matter of getting the needed materials to the refinery.

Its all about logistics.

Refinery A on the gulf coast needs 100 tons of catalyst, no problem, just load a couple of barges down and send it over.

Refinery B in Kansas needs 100 tons of catalyst, good luck with that. I hope you like loading and unloading rail cars.

 

[nobodyknows]

Being delayed "additional years" isn't really an option. If Keystone XL gets delayed additional years the line will most likely just get laid to Kitimat BC.

China needs oil too. They have to manufacture a lot of stuff for us.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

The links you posted reaffirmed my post.

Its going to be almost impossible for a land based refinery to produce as much gasoline, or other refined products, like what a water based refinery can do.

You can not transport as much coke (or other needed chemicals) by rail car as you can by ship, its physically impossible.




Its not a matter of building a refinery, its a matter of getting the needed materials to the refinery.

Its all about logistics.

Refinery A on the gulf coast needs 100 tons of catalyst, no problem, just load a couple of barges down and send it over.

Refinery B in Kansas needs 100 tons of catalyst, good luck with that. I hope you like loading and unloading rail cars.

1) Coke is produced as part of the cracking process and needs to be removed from the refinery.

2) Cracking catalyst is brought to the refineries via trucks.

 

[Texashiker]

The one important thing you're missing is the water used to cool the process and equipment. This one of the main reasons refineries are built close to the ocean or rivers.

I thought about the cooling process, but had not mentioned it yet.

Dupont in Orange Texas and Entergy (might have been GSU at the time) could not reach an agreement on energy cost. Something about Dupont wanted GSU to give them a break because of how high their energy cost were.

What did Dupont do? They built their own power plant. To cool the power plant, Dupont piped water out of the Sabine River.

People think gasoline magically goes from crude oil to gasoline or even plastics.

When an expansion was being built at Fina chemical in the late 1990s, a HUGE tower was built in France, then shipped to Port Arthur. This thing was like 30 feet in diameter and weighed several hundred tons. Instead of axles, it looked like the bottom part of a tank with tracks. Two creepers were used, one at each end, and maybe a couple of support axles in the middle. A guy with a remote control was walking next to the tower. The creeper moved at something like 1 - 2 miles per hour.

 

[nobodyknows]

The one important thing you're missing is the water used to cool the process and equipment. This one of the main reasons refineries are built close to the ocean or rivers.

http://nd.water.usgs.gov/lewisandclark/dams.html

One–third of the Missouri River has been transformed into lake environments, due to six dams built in Montana, North Dakota, South Dakota, and Nebraska (U.S. Geological Survey, 2001). Four of these dams, Fort Peck in Montana, Garrison in North Dakota, and Oahe and Fort Randall in South Dakota, are among the world’s largest dams in terms of volume (The Learning Network, Inc.). The remaining dams are Big Bend in South Dakota and Gavins Point on the South Dakota–Nebraska border.

 

[Texashiker]

some random image and link

Its obvious your trolling.

Nobody ever said it was impossible to build an inland refinery, its going to be logistics that are going to get you.

Where refineries on a ship channel can receive towers in the 100, 200, 300+ ton range, inland refineries are limited to maybe 40, 50, 60 tons max. Most roads are rated at 80,000 pounds, which is 40 tons. When you get in the 50+ ton range states have all kinds of restrictions.

Parts weighing 100+ tons, but no wider then about 20 feet can go on rail car.

Try shipping a 300 feet long 200+ ton tower inland where there is no major port. Sure you can ship it on a barge, but how are you going to offload the part? There has to be special cranes in place to handle those types of weights. Are you going to build a major port just to handle parts for a refinery?

There are major difference between an inland refinery and a refinery on a ship channel. That is just the way it is.

If someone "really" wanted to, sure they could build a large refinery on a major river. Start out with building a port, install some gantry cranes and go from there.

 

[DrPizza]

The links you posted reaffirmed my post.

Its going to be almost impossible for a land based refinery to produce as much gasoline, or other refined products, like what a water based refinery can do.

You can not transport as much coke (or other needed chemicals) by rail car as you can by ship, its physically impossible.




Its not a matter of building a refinery, its a matter of getting the needed materials to the refinery.

Its all about logistics.

Refinery A on the gulf coast needs 100 tons of catalyst, no problem, just load a couple of barges down and send it over.

Refinery B in Kansas needs 100 tons of catalyst, good luck with that. I hope you like loading and unloading rail cars.

Just out of curiosity, since you seem to be overlooking a major logical step, how do they get the coke to the ship in the first place?

 

[Texashiker]

Just out of curiosity, since you seem to be overlooking a major logical step, how do they get the coke to the ship in the first place?

The last time my wife and I went to Sabine Pass, I should had taken a pic of a plant loading coke on a ship.

Coke is like a black powder. A barge or ship is pulled up to the port, a boom is lowered into the hull, and away it goes.

Coke is also loaded on railcars to be sent inland.