A thought about the keystone pipeline

[DrPizza]

Rather than sending all that oil to refineries along the gulf coast, why not build a new refinery somewhere in the interior of our country - well out of reach of all those nasty hurricanes that can shut a refinery down. Wouldn't that be better for national security? Or is there some other reason not to build a refinery up there?

 

[dullard]

I've thought about that too. But, it just doesn't solve the problem. We have too much refinery capacity as it is. We are refining more fuel than we can use and we are exporting the excess gasoline to other countries. Building another refinery doesn't change any of this. We'd then need a long pipeline to send the gasoline to the ports so we can continue to export the gasoline.

A pipeline of volatile gasoline is worse than a pipeline of thick oil.

 

[soundforbjt]

Probably take too long to make a profit.

 

[DucatiMonster696]

Oil has many more uses besides being used for fuel in automobiles. Almost every product you can think of has some direct or indirect by product of refined oil involved in its manufacturing or production. From computers, to almost every imaginable vehicle you can imagine (including hybrids, etc) in both construction and fuel use, along with many construction materials, medical equipment and supplies, medicines, food products and eating utensils, furniture, cosmetics etc.

The uses for oil is endless and the demand is also just as great. Thus refined oil and refineries will always needed and they will need to be located in states with access to ports because it isn't just fuel that refineries sell and ship to other parts of the world.

Furthermore refineries have precisely moved down to Texas and other Gulf States because they have been regulated out of other states (California is a perfect example) with ports. So how are you going to get all the environmental lobbies in other states along with their paid lackeys in the Democratic party to agree to expand refineries in their home states in the interior of the nation? Why would they want this to occur when as I stated above in the end the by products of oil will have to be piped down to Gulf states or other areas of the nation for export? And as dullard pointed out having a pipe filled with volatile gasoline or other fuels would be more of hazard then just piping it down as a unrefined product.

 

[monovillage]

A very good idea, I also bet that new technology refineries would be far cleaner and more efficient then older designs. My bet is building them is a long, expensive, arduous process to get through the regulations and the inevitable lawsuits to get a refinery built. Wyoming may be a good choice.

 

[nonlnear]

And as dullard pointed out having a pipe filled with violate gasoline or other fuels would be more of hazard then just piping it down as a unrefined product.

Not to mention piping refined products results in significant waste and degradation, as the first (and last) stretch of product you put in the line is mixed with whatever was in there before (and after, respectively). The length of the mixing region increases dramatically as a function of the density difference between the consecutive fluids. (And remember the point of refining is to sort components of oil out more or less according to density differences) You push gasoline through the line after crude and you could have qutie a few miles of oil-gass slurry in no time as the gasoline flows over top of the crude. The end result may have to be rerefined anyways.

 

[HomerJS]

Oil has many more uses besides being used for fuel in automobiles. Almost every product you can think of has some direct or indirect by product of refined oil involved in its manufacturing or production. From computers, to almost every imaginable vehicle you can imagine (including hybrids, etc) in both construction and fuel use, along with many construction materials, medical equipment and supplies, medicines, food products and eating utensils, furniture, cosmetics etc.

The uses for oil is endless and the demand is also just as great. Thus refined oil and refineries will always need to be located in states with access to ports because it isn't just fuel that refineries sell and ship to other parts of the world.

Furthermore refineries have precisely moved down to Texas and other Gulf States because they have been regulated out of other states (California is a perfect example) with ports. So how are you going to get all the environmental lobbies in other states along with their paid lackeys in the Democratic party to agree to expand refineries in their home states in the interior of the nation? Why would they want this to occur when as I stated above in the end the by products of oil will have to be piped down to Gulf states or other areas of the nation for export? And as dullard pointed out having a pipe filled with violate gasoline or other fuels would be more of hazard then just piping it down as a unrefined product.

Again based on gas exports being up because refiners can get more money overseas and demand being down, how would more getting those treasonous Dems to allow more refineries help?

 

[DrPizza]

But, why would the refined gasoline have to be sent to the gulf coast? (And then other gasoline that was previously refined along the gulf coast be sent to, say, Wyoming?) I thought that when gas prices passed $4 during the Bush administration, one of the reasons was refinery capacity.


And, politically then, what's the reason for the pipeline anyway if we have more than we need?

 

[DesiPower]

can refineries be moved the equipments I mean... wouldn't it be cheaper than building maintaining, and pumping fuel through all those long pipelines...

 

[Jhhnn]

XL isn't really for American consumption, but rather for the export market in refined products, particularly diesel. It will, according to some sources, actually cause gas prices to rise in the midwest because it will alleviate a glut of Canadian crude in those markets. Gulf refineries will pay more because export prices are higher, forcing midwest refineries to follow suit.

It'll all be Obama's fault, of course.

 

[Darwin333]

I've thought about that too. But, it just doesn't solve the problem. We have too much refinery capacity as it is. We are refining more fuel than we can use and we are exporting the excess gasoline to other countries. Building another refinery doesn't change any of this. We'd then need a long pipeline to send the gasoline to the ports so we can continue to export the gasoline.

A pipeline of volatile gasoline is worse than a pipeline of thick oil.

We could use the interior refineries to produce the domestic gasoline which is shipped in the same way that you currently receive it and use the gulfcoast refineries to export refined product which makes US companies money and supports well paying US jobs...... whats the downside again?

 

[Darwin333]

XL isn't really for American consumption, but rather for the export market in refined products, particularly diesel. It will, according to some sources, actually cause gas prices to rise in the midwest because it will alleviate a glut of Canadian crude in those markets. Gulf refineries will pay more because export prices are higher, forcing midwest refineries to follow suit.

It'll all be Obama's fault, of course.

That is not in the least bit accurate.

 

[HomerJS]

But according to Republicans and Fox News, Obama not immediately approving Keystone is causing high gas prices.

 

[nonlnear]

That is not in the least bit accurate.

What is inaccurate? (Other than the tongue in cheek Obama remark.)

 

[Jhhnn]

That is not in the least bit accurate.

You'll need to support that in the face of this-

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politi...ne-How-much-would-it-really-help-US-consumers

Much of the oil we import is refined & exported right back out of the country, so we're just switching sources for the raw material.

We also need to recognize that tar sand oil is basically strip mining on a vast scale, and also who stands to benefit-

http://mpirg.blogspot.com/2011/02/alberta-tar-sands-uplifting-tales-from.html

 

[EagleKeeper]

But according to Republicans and Fox News, Obama not immediately approving Keystone is causing high gas prices.

Perception => speculation

 

[Atreus21]

Much of the oil we import is refined & exported right back out of the country, so we're just switching sources for the raw material.

I think that's one of the principle benefits.

 

[kage69]

The fact that we sell more than we use really puts all this pipeline talk into perspective, and it doesn't look good for those trying to make this a huge political issue.

 

[Texashiker]

Rather than sending all that oil to refineries along the gulf coast, why not build a new refinery somewhere in the interior of our country - well out of reach of all those nasty hurricanes that can shut a refinery down. Wouldn't that be better for national security? Or is there some other reason not to build a refinery up there?

We could probably use some refineries up there, but,,, it would take a decade or more to build a refinery.

Then there is the extreme cold weather that affects the metals. The chemicals used in refining have to be kept within a certain temperature range. Refineries along the gulf coast use shell and tube heat exchangers, boilers and cooling towers to regulate the temperature of the chemicals. When you get up north you have to deal with "cold" temperatures.

There is also the sheer amount of crude oil that needs to be transported. Have you ever been close to a super tank? They are huge, its like being next to a sky scraper laying on its side. There is no way trucks or pipelines alone can handle the amount of crude oil that supertankers can transport.

 

[Blackjack200]

The fact that we sell more than we use really puts all this pipeline talk into perspective, and it doesn't look good for those trying to make this a huge political issue.

Everyone likes to forget that oil is a global commodity. It will always go to wherever it needs to go at the market's price.

The only exception to this is when transportation limitations get in the way (lack of pipline, Strait of Hormuz is closed, etc.)

I read that so much natural gas has been found in the US recently that energy companies don't even want to drill for it anymore unless they can build more infrastructure to ship it out. That's how depressed the local market has become.

 

[Texashiker]

Another issue with building a refinery, is the support systems that have developed around the refineries along the gulf coast.

Lets use shell and tube heat exchangers as an example. Heat exchangers are used by refineries to regulate the temps of the chemicals used to refine oil and chemicals.

In 1990 Citgo in Lake Charles had a heat exchanger in a gasoline unit that started leaking. The unit was shutdown, the exchanger puled out and sent to where I was working for repairs.

Every hour the unit was down, citgo was losing $100,000. That was back when gas was $1 - $1.25 a gallon. In todays money, it would probably be closer to $500,000 an hour. We got the job because the company I worked for was just down the road from citgo. Could you imagine having to ship a part 200, 300 or 400 miles, while that unit being down cost $500,000 an hour?

Refineries have to have a support chain nearby - equipment rentals, pipe shops, machine shops, heat exchanger shops, general welding / fabrication shops, welding supply shops for welding rods, safety equipment, cutting torches,,, and the list goes on and on.

Sure you could build a refinery in about a decade, but what are you going to do when the cooling towers start leaking? Where are you going to rent the cranes from to pull the old parts out of the tower? You need a flange machined to stop it from leaking, where is the nearest machine shop with a portable machine unit?

Then there is the sheer weight and size of some of the parts used in the refineries. Some of those towers have to brought in by ship, then things that look like tank tracks used to transport the part from the port to the refinery. We are talking about parts that weigh hundreds of tons.

 

[fskimospy]

We have excess refining capacity as is, the oil companies are looking to CLOSE refineries, not build new ones.

Environmental regulations are not preventing the construction of new refineries, the companies don't even want all the ones they have.

 

[cybrsage]

This is why we need the pipeline, to keep all those refineries open. Closing refineries means more people without jobs.

 

[DrPizza]

Not to completely dispute what you're saying Texashiker, but I never said ALL of the refineries are along the gulf coast. There's a refinery (Pennsylvanian crude oil) about 45 minutes from me in Bradford, PA. American Refining Group, Inc.; they make Brad-Penn lubricants among other things.

 

[HomerJS]

Obama didn't completely nix the pipline he said no now because Republicans wanted to force a decision before environmental studies were complete so Obama called their bluff.

Meanwhile if people think these studies are not a big deal here's a story of a spill containing the same kind tar sands as Keystone would carry.

http://motherjones.com/blue-marble/2012/03/fallout-kalamazoo-tar-sands-spill-keystone