A Simple Plea: Be Civil.

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CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
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IF you have no response in the cerebral cortex beyond random impulse YOU ARE CLINICAL DEAD. PERIOD!

That it is only one of the ways clinical death is defind is irrelevant and you know it.

You are dancing around an issue that is very clear to anyone who has EVER pronounced anyone dead and knows the definition.

Other definitions involve the neo cortex activity (and please look that up beyond random impulse in a fetus too) or independant heartbeat (and go right the fuck ahead and look up that in a fetus too).

The rest of the BS diversion tactics you are using are useless because i'm going to stick with this very topic.
The American Medical Association defines death as, "The cessation of life," though they are now considering a, "modification of the definition of death to mean either the complete cessation of cardiac function or the
complete cessation of brain function," or defining it as follows:
“An individual who has sustained either (1) irreversible cessation of circulatory and respiratory
functions, or (2) irreversible cessation of all functions of the entire brain, including the brain
stem, is dead”
Source: http://www.ama-assn.org/ama1/pub/upload/mm/369/ceja_ci88.pdf

Plenty of other terms, such as "cardiac death," "brain death," and so on are used clinically to describe different facets of death. You have oversimplified a very complex problem to suit your needs in this thread. A simple Googling of "definition of death" should reveal plenty of hits, but here are some from more reputable sources:
http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2009/01/19/prsa0119.htm
http://www.ama-assn.org/ama1/pub/upload/mm/369/ceja_4i94.pdf

Along the way to earning my first engineering degree, I also minored in social justice and bioethics. These issues are a lot more complicated than you make them out to be, and they are hardly settled in the medical sphere. Perhaps taking a deep breath and acknowledging that someone else might know something that you don't would allow you to engage in useful discussion without flying off the handle so readily.
 
Jun 26, 2007
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The American Medical Association defines death as, "The cessation of life," though they are now considering a, "modification of the definition of death to mean either the complete cessation of cardiac function or the
complete cessation of brain function," or defining it as follows:

Source: http://www.ama-assn.org/ama1/pub/upload/mm/369/ceja_ci88.pdf

Plenty of other terms, such as "cardiac death," "brain death," and so on are used clinically to describe different facets of death. You have oversimplified a very complex problem to suit your needs in this thread. A simple Googling of "definition of death" should reveal plenty of hits, but here are some from more reputable sources:
http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2009/01/19/prsa0119.htm
http://www.ama-assn.org/ama1/pub/upload/mm/369/ceja_4i94.pdf

Along the way to earning my first engineering degree, I also minored in social justice and bioethics. These issues are a lot more complicated than you make them out to be, and they are hardly settled in the medical sphere. Perhaps taking a deep breath and acknowledging that someone else might know something that you don't would allow you to engage in useful discussion without flying off the handle so readily.

No i haven't, the clinical definition of death is complete loss of activity in the cerebral cortex (at this point they will harvest your organs if you are a donor, do you think they harvest the organs of a living human being?), i told you this in my first post in this thread and it's still fucking true.

Christ almighty you are doing ALL that you can to dance around the truth to NOT be wrong when you know you are...

I'm done here but YGPM.
 

cubeless

Diamond Member
Sep 17, 2001
4,295
1
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Yeah, I suppose that is a real solution I can continue to use. I can't help but think that all the rancor keeps away a large portion of people though.

i look on it as a group of people standing around blabbering at a party... you don't like some of the people, but they are friends of your friends so you chat with someone who you want to chat with while they chat with other people...

and i guess it's possible that some frady cat might not post because they expect to get torched, but if you are that timid you probably end up just talking to yourself anyways...
 
Jun 26, 2007
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He = Rational adult whose posts usually contribute to the topic of discussion
You = Inverse of the above

I disagree highly with his conclusion on the topic in question, but I'd rather have him as my opponent on the issue than you as my ally. You are worthless.

So you are saying that continously trolling a topic and changing definitions and using strawmen (human instead of human being) until you make your responding party frustrated enough to use profanity is the way to go?

Well, if that is the case, then i'm glad you consider me worthless.

Because you are clearly someone who values trolling for bad response higher the responses to it that are correct.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
No i haven't, the clinical definition of death is complete loss of activity in the cerebral cortex (at this point they will harvest your organs if you are a donor, do you think they harvest the organs of a living human being?), i told you this in my first post in this thread and it's still fucking true.

Christ almighty you are doing ALL that you can to dance around the truth to NOT be wrong when you know you are...

I'm done here but YGPM.
I just posted a link which demonstrates beyond any doubt that your definition is still questionable at best, and is not commonly accepted.
 
Jun 26, 2007
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I just posted a link which demonstrates beyond any doubt that your definition is still questionable at best, and is not commonly accepted.

AGAIN, organs are harvested at this state.

Either that is murder or you are wrong.

Now i am REALLY done, respond in PM if you want more abuse. ;)
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
So you are saying that continously trolling a topic and changing definitions and using strawmen (human instead of human being) until you make your responding party frustrated enough to use profanity is the way to go?

Well, if that is the case, then i'm glad you consider me worthless.

Because you are clearly someone who values trolling for bad response higher the responses to it that are correct.
You didn't read my links.
Redefining death: A new ethical dilemma

To secure life-saving vital organs, some physicians are pushing the boundaries of what constitutes death. The ramifications for the transplant system could be profound.

A days-old infant sustained severe neurological injury after being asphyxiated during birth, but the dying baby's condition did not meet the criteria for brain death -- long the only circumstance under which vital organs were procured. The baby was transferred to Children's Hospital in Aurora, Colo., a suburb of Denver, where the family decided to withdraw life support. Family members also agreed to let surgeons there attempt to transplant the baby's heart into an infant born with complex congenital heart disease.

But to accomplish this, the potential donor heart had to stop working. The question: How long after cardiac functioning ceased should the retrieval team wait to ensure the baby's heart would not restart without intervention? The complicating factors: Odds of successful transplantation decrease as the wait after cessation of cardiocirculatory function increases. But acting too soon can make retrieval seem like death by organ donation.

The infant who received that heart lived, as did two other babies who received hearts from donations retrieved shortly after cardiac death in transplants the Denver team performed between May 2004 and May 2007. The results were published in the Aug. 14, 2008, New England Journal of Medicine.

The clinical debate over whether 75 seconds without cardiac function after withdrawing life support is sufficient time to confidently declare death is unsettled, but the questions these cases raise go even deeper. Some bioethicists and physicians say the cases are merely the latest in the organ transplantation era to stretch the definition of death in ways that could potentially undermine Americans' trust in physicians and in the organ donation process.

A matter of minutes
Expanding the pool of potential pediatric heart donors beyond those who meet brain-death criteria can help meet a pressing need. About 100 infants younger than a year old receive life-saving heart transplants every year. But as many as 50 infants in need of heart transplants die each year while waiting on the United Network for Organ Sharing list, according to an NEJM editorial.

About a third of infants who die in pediatric hospitals do so after life support is withdrawn. These infants represent a valuable pool of life-saving organs. The Denver team said that at Children's Hospital, 12 potential infant donors died of cardiocirculatory causes during the three years of the study, accounting for a possible 70% increase in organ donation.

About 100 infants younger than 1 receive heart transplants each year.
According to the "dead-donor rule" adopted as law in all 50 states, patients must be declared irreversibly dead before their vital organs can be retrieved for transplantation, provided there is consent from patients or surrogate decision-makers.

Securing organs from brain-dead patients has been deemed ethical since a Harvard Medical School committee formulated the criteria in 1968; every state recognizes brain death as legal death.

Over the last decade and a half, organ donation after cardiac death has become medically and legally acceptable, though the timing question has proved contentious. The so-called Pittsburgh protocol, published in 1993, called for a two-minute wait after cardiopulmonary arrest before declaring death and retrieving organs. The Institute of Medicine in 1997 said transplant teams should wait five minutes after cardiac functioning ceases before retrieving organs.

Then in 2000, the IOM said some data suggested a shorter interval of 60 seconds, though its report said "existing empirical data cannot confirm or disprove a specific interval at which the cessation of cardiopulmonary function becomes irreversible." The Society of Critical Care Medicine recommends a wait of at least two minutes but no longer than five minutes.

American Medical Association policy doesn't address the time issue, but says the practice is "ethically acceptable" as long as conflict-of-interest and palliative care protocols are followed.

In its first infant heart donor case, the Colorado team waited three minutes. But the Children's Hospital ethics committee determined, based on data it reviewed, that a 75-second wait would be sufficient and would reduce the risk of injury to the donor heart from blood loss.

Each year about 50 infants die waiting for heart transplants.
This groundbreaking decision has received fierce criticism, including a series of editorials published in the NEJM. A member of the Children's Hospital ethics committee declined to speak with AMNews.

But the author of one editorial derided as "arbitrary" the 75-second protocol the Colorado team used. "We know that infants, compared to older people, tend to be more resilient," said James L. Bernat, MD, professor of medicine and neurology at the Dartmouth Medical School in New Hampshire. "We are always more conservative in our delineations with infants. It's especially troubling that they reached that conclusion."

The process of deciding how long to wait before declaring cardiac death "shouldn't be done ad hoc," he said. "It should be something done following guidelines. There are some guidelines out there; admittedly, there could be better ones. I understand why they wanted to shorten the wait, but I don't think it's a good idea."

Bioethicist Arthur L. Caplan, PhD, agreed. "I'm not against moving fast and saving other lives. But the big 'but' is you have to do that with a national consensus, not local groups saying when it comes to neonates 75 seconds is plenty of time to wait," said Caplan, director of the University of Pennsylvania Center for Bioethics.

Other critics said the concept of transplanting a heart after cardiac death isn't logical.

"If someone is pronounced dead on the basis of irreversible loss of heart function, after all, it would not be possible for heart function to be restored in another body," wrote Robert M. Veatch, PhD, a Georgetown University medical ethics professor, in an Aug. 14, 2008, NEJM essay. "One cannot say a heart is irreversibly stopped if, in fact, it will be restarted."

Veatch said the dead-donor rule should be changed to allow patients or their families to opt for a standard that takes a loss of functioning consciousness (short of brain death) as another kind of death. Physicians could then procure hearts "in the absence of irreversible heart stoppage."

Various definitions
Robert D. Truog, MD, said the Denver cases illustrate the underlying problem in how death is defined to facilitate organ donation and transplantation. He said it is time to reconsider the dead-donor rule.

"The existing paradigm, built around the dead-donor rule, has increasingly pushed us into more and more implausible definitions of death, until eventually we end up with such a tortured definition that nobody's going to believe it," said Dr. Truog, professor of medical ethics and anesthesia at Harvard Medical School in Massachusetts.

"When you get there, you run the risk of really undermining confidence in what this whole system is about," he said.

"We are seeing it play out in the Denver example," he added. "What made it problematic was that they were trying to fit what they did into our existing ethical norms. It's like trying to fit square pegs in round holes. It just doesn't fit."

Dr. Truog has long argued for what he admits is a "radical departure" from the current definition of norms for death. He disagrees that brain death is actual death, noting that major life functions continue. Brain-dead patients have given birth, for example.

Dr. Troug argues that vital organ donation does cause patients to die, and to say otherwise misleads patients and families. But dying patients on life support and their families have a right to consent to such donations, even if it causes death, he said.

While the debate over the timing of cardiac death is contentious, most experts disagree with Dr. Truog's opinion on the dead-donor rule.

"The dead-donor rule serves a great purpose," said John J. Paris, a Boston College bioethicist. "There is a great sentiment among people that [physicians] might try to do you in to take your organs. ... The protection is we only take organs from those who are dead and can't take organs to cause them to be dead, which is a substantial leap from where we are. And the slippery slope is very slippery in that case. If you don't have to be dead to get the organs, then from whom can we take them?"

Dr. Truog said no transplants should take place without consent from patients or their surrogates, and such donations should be limited to patients whose surrogates want to discontinue life support.

That standard is not good enough for Georgetown's Veatch.

He said Dr. Truog's proposal "amounts to an endorsement of active, intentional killing of the patient -- that is, active euthanasia. It would be euthanasia by vital organ removal."

The Denver heart transplant cases already have sparked a contentious debate over how soon is too soon to declare death. Whether physicians, bioethicists and lawmakers will be spurred to redefine death remains to be seen.

Franklin G. Miller, PhD, said it is unlikely. He has co-authored articles with Dr. Truog that call for doing away with the dead-donor rule.

He predicted that "we can just muddle through" with the current definitions of death.

Miller, a bioethicist at the National Institutes of Health, said "people will get bent out of shape" by critiques of the dead-donor rule. "But I think we need, in a way, to get bent out of shape to make sense out of what we're already doing."
 

Ackmed

Diamond Member
Oct 1, 2003
8,499
560
126
It has been this way ever since forums have come about. People feel awful tough behind a computer screen, and say things they would never dream of in front of someone. Just makes me laugh for the most part.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
106
Alright, let's stop derailing this thread right now.

Some of you have received PM's. Others be warned.

I'm not sure this thread even belongs in P&N, probably s/b in Personal Forum Issues. But I've let it go so far and will continue to do if you people can keep it OT.

T.I.A.

Fern
Super Moderator
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,819
6,779
126
I asked Cyclowizard to stay out of this thread, so don't post at/to him.

TIA

Fern
Super moderator


You could have just typed, "Neener neener! Only my opinion counts!" and saved yourself a lot of trouble. Assuming the problem away so that you don't have to deal with it is not a solution - it's simply your lazy way out. Though since you're a great feeler but not much of a thinker, I wouldn't expect you to attempt to tackle such a difficult problem. No worries - those of us who are thinkers will be more than happy to get into the thinking problems. Continue feeling that you have everything figured out without realizing that your feelings have led to yet another contradiction.

This is what you call thinking. Have you no shame?

I gave up on thinking because my feeling was so much better at getting to the truth, but my thinking when I want to do it is far far better than yours. Sorry. Why you couldn't even think your way out of a paper bag.

So please, no more of these ridiculous posts please.
 
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shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,500
6
81
Originally Posted by rudder
[moonbeam]But I am the most intelligent person on this board. If you do not think I am right, then you are a dumb fuck. If you do not listen to me and my opinions, which are always 100% correct, then I must call you a dumb fuck.[/moonbeam]

This is pretty much exactly what I'm talking about.

/sigh

This isn't a very good example. Anyone who can't see the extreme sarcasm in MB's post should perhaps take up knitting.
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,500
6
81
Did someone hold a gun to her head to force her to become impregnated? Even if the answer is yes, how can the mother hold the gun to the head of the child and pull the trigger, thereby infringing its right to life?

You're referring to 2-month-old fetus as a "child" - I mean, who could possibly, in good faith, see any difference between that partially-formed worm in the woman's womb and a toddler scrambling around on a jungle jim? - and you're calling OTHER people idiots?

edit: Oops, didn't see Fern's injunction before I wrote this post. Sorry, Mods.

You're lucky you added that last bit (and that I saw it at the last moment), I was just reaching for my ban-hammer.

Fern
Super moderator
 
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sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,809
6,363
126
I've said it many times, but I'll say it again: ArsTechnica has/had the best Political Forum. No Off Topic Posts, no Derails, no Personal Attacks. Warnings, Vacations, Bans were handed out as needed and swiftly. They went Subscription Only though and I was unwilling to Pay.
 

Carmen813

Diamond Member
May 18, 2007
3,189
0
76
In an effort to drag this back on topic, I found an interesting AP article today.

The cliffs: things aren't worse, we are just more aware of it.

Since I'm interested in doing graduate level research work in Counseling, I may look into something that compares human behavior on the internet to the real world. You never know, might find something unexpected.
 
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cubeless

Diamond Member
Sep 17, 2001
4,295
1
81
I've said it many times, but I'll say it again: ArsTechnica has/had the best Political Forum. No Off Topic Posts, no Derails, no Personal Attacks. Warnings, Vacations, Bans were handed out as needed and swiftly. They went Subscription Only though and I was unwilling to Pay.

i bet they just quit letting you post... can we take up a collection to have you just go back over there and leave us alone?

of course i say that in a friendly and respectful way...
 

cubeless

Diamond Member
Sep 17, 2001
4,295
1
81
In an effort to drag this back on topic, I found an interesting AP article today.

The cliffs: things aren't worse, we are just more aware of it.

Since I'm interested in doing graduate level research work in Counseling, I may look into something that compares human behavior on the internet to the real world. You never know, might find something unexpected.

you'll find out my theory of free drinks on airplanes: more get consumed than when they have to be paid for...

people are sillier here because i can pretty much guarantee that most people are going to think twice before talking too much shit to my furry, 6'5', 250 lb (and in pretty good shape for an about to be 50yrs old) body attached, face...
 

Carmen813

Diamond Member
May 18, 2007
3,189
0
76
you'll find out my theory of free drinks on airplanes: more get consumed than when they have to be paid for...

people are sillier here because i can pretty much guarantee that most people are going to think twice before talking too much shit to my furry, 6'5', 250 lb (and in pretty good shape for an about to be 50yrs old) body attached, face...

So you are like a 50 year old furby? (*Edit* My wife suggested wookie, it made me laugh so I'm putting it here :))

:D

My guess is that the internet allows people a place to let out some anger/frustration in their life without facing the possibility of real social repercussions. Especially when it comes to something like this, where they feel powerless and lack control, it gives them a small measure of psychological comfort.
 
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cubeless

Diamond Member
Sep 17, 2001
4,295
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So you are like a 50 year old furby? (*Edit* My wife suggested wookie, it made me laugh so I'm putting it here :))

:D

My guess is that the internet allows people a place to let out some anger/frustration in their life without facing the possibility of real social repercussions. Especially when it comes to something like this, where they feel powerless and lack control, it gives them a small measure of psychological comfort.

short haired wookie...

and i totally agree that this is free mental health care for the masses... it's as useful as any counseling (suggestions never get taken) or talk therapy (see 'moonbeam' and 'johnofsheffield')... it's a soap opera that lets everyone be bigger and prettier and smarter and crazier than life...