A Seriously High Quality Public Person

[fskimospy]

Stop being black would be a start.

zing...

Haha, zing indeed. I don't think that had too much to do with it to be honest. I mean we both know that Republican politicians pander to racist elements of their base but I don't think their opposition was based much on racial animus. I'm fairly confident that had Obama been a white guy the opposition would have been similar. You will see the same sort of scorched earth opposition with Clinton I bet, and not because she's a woman.

I genuinely think there is nothing Obama could have done to break this opposition because there simply aren't any political incentives for Republicans to compromise with him. The same will be true for Clinton. Republicans fear primary challenges, not general election challenges, and the Republican base is furiously against any compromise.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Serious question, what actions do you think Obama could take or could have taken that would have gotten Congress to buy in?

Its about results its not about trying or attempting to do something his results in getting Congressional buy in were poor at best.

 

[realibrad]

Haha, zing indeed. I don't think that had too much to do with it to be honest. I mean we both know that Republican politicians pander to racist elements of their base but I don't think their opposition was based much on racial animus. I'm fairly confident that had Obama been a white guy the opposition would have been similar. You will see the same sort of scorched earth opposition with Clinton I bet, and not because she's a woman.

I genuinely think there is nothing Obama could have done to break this opposition because there simply aren't any political incentives for Republicans to compromise with him. The same will be true for Clinton. Republicans fear primary challenges, not general election challenges, and the Republican base is furiously against any compromise.

Honestly, I think his biggest misstep was not getting his party to do shit when they had a majority. Ignoring my opinion on the policies they would have pushed through, they had a chance to do things did not use it. His role as president could have been to bully his party into action for big things. Maybe there are things that distracted him that I dont know, but from his view it looks like his part got complacent and lost their advantage. They got a lot of things through, but not really big things when they had the chance.

I personally don't like the expansion of surveillance. When I try explaining to people the scope of the government in our digital lives to non tech people, they act like I am making it up. They seem to believe the government is not monitoring everything. They think that the Utah Data Center is like Area 51.

 

[fskimospy]

Honestly, I think his biggest misstep was not getting his party to do shit when they had a majority. Ignoring my opinion on the policies they would have pushed through, they had a chance to do things did not use it. His role as president could have been to bully his party into action for big things. Maybe there are things that distracted him that I dont know, but from his view it looks like his part got complacent and lost their advantage. They got a lot of things through, but not really big things when they had the chance.

He enacted the single largest expansion of public health care in half a century, the largest economic stimulus bill in history, and enacted the most comprehensive regulation of the financial industry since the Great Depression. How is that not doing big things? There's rarely been a period in US history where more significant legislation was passed than in 2009-10. I'm not sure how anyone could say he didn't do big things when he had the chance.

I personally don't like the expansion of surveillance. When I try explaining to people the scope of the government in our digital lives to non tech people, they act like I am making it up. They seem to believe the government is not monitoring everything. They think that the Utah Data Center is like Area 51.

I strongly agree with you on what I think is the now routine violation of the 4th amendment.

 

[fskimospy]

Its about results its not about trying or attempting to do something his results in getting Congressional buy in were poor at best.

Right, and what I'm saying is that getting Congress to buy in was literally impossible because they had no incentive to buy in. Since you think his failure to get Congress to buy in is a mark against him you must have an idea of what he could have done differently to achieve the results you want. What would that be?

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Right, and what I'm saying is that getting Congress to buy in was literally impossible because they had no incentive to buy in. Since you think his failure to get Congress to buy in is a mark against him you must have an idea of what he could have done differently to achieve the results you want. What would that be?

Yes I do, I know it sounds irritating but I am a believer in "efforts are appreciated, results are rewarded". I'll agree Obama was dealt a shitty hand but that doesn't matter.

 

[fskimospy]

Yes I do, I know it sounds irritating but I am a believer in "efforts are appreciated, results are rewarded". I'll agree Obama was dealt a shitty hand but that doesn't matter.

But doesn't it matter? If an outcome was literally impossible then it would make no sense to hold it against him, right?

My opinion is that getting Republicans to buy in was literally impossible because Republican legislators had zero political incentive to work with him. All I'm asking for is some idea from you of what actions Obama could have taken to achieve the results that you wanted.

 

[realibrad]

He enacted the single largest expansion of public health care in half a century, the largest economic stimulus bill in history, and enacted the most comprehensive regulation of the financial industry since the Great Depression. How is that not doing big things? There's rarely been a period in US history where more significant legislation was passed than in 2009-10. I'm not sure how anyone could say he didn't do big things when he had the chance.



I strongly agree with you on what I think is the now routine violation of the 4th amendment.

But my point stands he could have gotten more done. Once he realized he was going to have to get shit done without congress, he did. I expected the Republicans to fight everything, but I did not expect his party to be so weak either. He could have done more to get them into action sooner. I also give him props in getting us out of being the world police. Its time for the world to step up if they dont like us doing it.

But, in terms of missteps I think his belief he could get people to work together was his main thing. Not a horrible fault considering though.

 

[fskimospy]

But my point stands he could have gotten more done. Once he realized he was going to have to get shit done without congress, he did. I expected the Republicans to fight everything, but I did not expect his party to be so weak either. He could have done more to get them into action sooner. I also give him props in getting us out of being the world police. Its time for the world to step up if they dont like us doing it.

I guess every president could always get more done but I still find it odd to say that he didn't do big things when he had the chance when he did more big things in a shorter period than almost any president in history. That seems to be the definition of getting big things done.

But, in terms of missteps I think his belief he could get people to work together was his main thing. Not a horrible fault considering though.

Yes I agree, in hindsight his belief that he could get Republicans to work with him if he reached out was pretty naive and misguided. It took him far too long to abandon that, which is one of his larger mistakes. That, and giving in the first time when Republicans tried to hold the debt ceiling hostage. I fear the idea that you can get what you want by threatening the world economy will be one of the most damaging parts of his legacy.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

But doesn't it matter? If an outcome was literally impossible then it would make no sense to hold it against him, right?

My opinion is that getting Republicans to buy in was literally impossible because Republican legislators had zero political incentive to work with him. All I'm asking for is some idea from you of what actions Obama could have taken to achieve the results that you wanted.

He tried multiple times and failed that is the result.

 

[boomerang]

But, in terms of missteps I think his belief he could get people to work together was his main thing. Not a horrible fault considering though.

Within days of taking office in his first term, in a meeting with congressional leaders, Obama listened and said "I won". That set the tone right there and it carried through his first term and into his second. The overwhelming majority of the time his modus operandi was 'my way or the highway'. It's going to be tough to get people to work together when you right out of the gate tell them fuck you, I won and I don't have to listen to your concerns or even your ideas.

This aspect of his presidency cannot be ignored.

 

[fskimospy]

He tried multiple times and failed that is the result.

Right, so what should he have done instead?

 

[soundforbjt]

Within days of taking office in his first term, in a meeting with congressional leaders, Obama listened and said "I won". That set the tone right there and it carried through his first term and into his second. The overwhelming majority of the time his modus operandi was 'my way or the highway'. It's going to be tough to get people to work together when you right out of the gate tell them fuck you, I won and I don't have to listen to your concerns or even your ideas.

This aspect of his presidency cannot be ignored.

Do you think Trump will do the same (with his temperament it's seems likely) and if he does will you think it's different somehow?

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Right, so what should he have done instead?

Have a result that's not a failure.
Its not my place to say what he should have done other than he should have done something different or have different advisors' or different offers.
He is the President not you or I.

 

[fskimospy]

Have a result that's not a failure.
Its not my place to say what he should have done other than he should have done something different or have different advisors' or different offers.
He is the President not you or I.

Wait, you think it's your place to say what he did was bad but not your place to say what he should have done differently? What sense does that make?

You're basically saying Obama acted incorrectly without being able to articulate a single thing he did incorrectly. That's a ridiculous. If you can't come up with a preferable course of action then your critique is meaningless.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Wait, you think it's your place to say what he did was bad but not your place to say what he should have done differently? What sense does that make?

You're basically saying Obama acted incorrectly without being able to articulate a single thing he did incorrectly. That's a ridiculous. If you can't come up with a preferable course of action then your critique is meaningless.

First you asked me
Second he ran for President its his job & responsibility to gain consensus this was a weakness of Obama.

 

[fskimospy]

First you asked me

I did ask you what you would have done differently, but you haven't answered. You supplied your initial critique all on your own. Why do you feel that it is your place to criticize his actions but do not consider it your place to propose an alternative? That seriously makes no sense.

Second he ran for President its his job & responsibility to gain consensus this was a weakness of Obama.

How was it a weakness? What should he have done differently that would have succeeded or would have stood a better chance of success? If you can't identify a better way then maybe there just wasn't one?

 

[Fanatical Meat]

I did ask you what you would have done differently, but you haven't answered. You supplied your initial critique all on your own. Why do you feel that it is your place to criticize his actions but do not consider it your place to propose an alternative? That seriously makes no sense.



How was it a weakness? What should he have done differently that would have succeeded or would have stood a better chance of success? If you can't identify a better way then maybe there just wasn't one?

You're just Buckshatting bring the discussion down an endless rabbit hole

 

[Perknose]

You're just Buckshatting bring the discussion down an endless rabbit hole

Nope, he's asking you an entirely relevant question, which, for some reason, you are refusing to answer. Hey, I'm not trying to hector you, but, what would you have done differently, or, put another way, what specifically do you think Obama should have done that you believe would have worked?

The devil is in the details. The devil is always in the details. Don't be a Dub, do some nuance here. Hell, it's not even nuance, it's the absolute heart of the matter . . . what specifically would you have had him do differently, that you believe would have worked?

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Nope, he's asking you an entirely relevant question, which, for some reason, you are refusing to answer. Hey, I'm not trying to hector you, but, what would you have done differently, or, put another way, what specifically do you think Obama should have done that you believe would have worked?

The devil is in the details. The devil is always in the details. Don't be a Dub, do some nuance here. Hell, it's not even nuance, it's the absolute heart of the matter . . . what specifically would you have had him do differently, that you believe would have worked?

I see if its worded as me, I would have seen how far the crazies wanted to go to reach a compromise would it be $50 in spending cuts to $1 in new taxes work from there.
Regarding the fiscal cliff & guns I would cancel vacations and been seen waiting in the Oval Office plus appear on every news outlet possible.
Keep in mind I am not going to discuss the effectiveness because none of us were there we really don't know what the hold up was.
As a voter I expect a Politician to be capable of gaining consensus or redirect his/her efforts to support that goal. How difficult the goal is doesn't excuse failure. I know this is an irritating difficult thing to understand. I've finally become comfortable with the concept in my career.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Nm

 

[fskimospy]

I see if its worded as me, I would have seen how far the crazies wanted to go to reach a compromise would it be $50 in spending cuts to $1 in new taxes work from there.
Regarding the fiscal cliff & guns I would cancel vacations and been seen waiting in the Oval Office plus appear on every news outlet possible.
Keep in mind I am not going to discuss the effectiveness because none of us were there we really don't know what the hold up was.

Thank you for at least answering.

For the first one, it seems like your offer of $50 in spending cuts to $1 in new taxes would have been a catastrophic mistake, as that would be such an abject surrender that they would have simply said "okay". Now you're either destroying the federal budget or you've just shot yourself in the foot rhetorically when you don't follow through. For the second one, Obama basically did what you suggested.

It's hard to see how either of those would have forged some sort of compromise though, if anything they appear to be adversarial efforts that would further alienate conservatives or functionally amount to surrendering to them. I'm glad that Obama did not surrender.

As a voter I expect a Politician to be capable of gaining consensus or redirect his/her efforts to support that goal. How difficult the goal is doesn't excuse failure. I know this is an irritating difficult thing to understand. I've finally become comfortable with the concept in my career.

Of course how difficult something is excuses failure. If something is impossible to do or if something is impossible to do without costs so extreme they make it not worth doing then failing to do so is not only okay, it can be an affirmatively good thing. It's not irritating, it's just really really wrong.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Thank you for at least answering.

For the first one, it seems like your offer of $50 in spending cuts to $1 in new taxes would have been a catastrophic mistake, as that would be such an abject surrender that they would have simply said "okay". Now you're either destroying the federal budget or you've just shot yourself in the foot rhetorically when you don't follow through. For the second one, Obama basically did what you suggested.

I didn't say accept it I said see where it is

It's hard to see how either of those would have forged some sort of compromise though, if anything they appear to be adversarial efforts that would further alienate conservatives or functionally amount to surrendering to them. I'm glad that Obama did not surrender.



Of course how difficult something is excuses failure. If something is impossible to do or if something is impossible to do without costs so extreme they make it not worth doing then failing to do so is not only okay, it can be an affirmatively good thing. It's not irritating, it's just really really wrong.

We'll have to agree to disagree. Failure is failure, again giving a good effort is great and appreciated but the result is still failure something different had to be done.

 

[hal2kilo]

I didn't say accept it I said see where it is



We'll have to agree to disagree. Failure is failure, again giving a good effort is great and appreciated but the result is still failure something different had to be done.

Well I guess Obama should have made arrangements for Sen. McChinless to have a bad accident.

 

[fskimospy]

I didn't say accept it I said see where it is

We'll have to agree to disagree. Failure is failure, again giving a good effort is great and appreciated but the result is still failure something different had to be done.

That all assumes success is possible when my whole point is that it wasn't.