A SARS/War question for our canadian friends....

[Alistar7]

Originally posted by: Moralpanic

Where are the HUGE crowds of anti-us Iraqi citizens???????? Hell you cant even find that on Al-Jazeera...

Wow, what news have you been watching? Even in the south where you're claiming all these Iraqis are free and happy now, there is huge resentment towards the US. The Iraqis are literally mobbing for food and water, and they're closed off with a fence like they're animals. I've seen my fair share of news, even on the American channels, where the Iraqi civilians, although aren't acting violently against the US, they're hating them for invading their country. Why do you think the charitable organizations like world food program and red cross haven't joined the coalition to help ease the suffering yet? Instead it's all been entirely US, British, and Kuwaitis... because they know there is resentment against the US at the moment, and they don't want to be labeled with the US.

this also is in response to ZERo and his post about taking food then praising Saddam.

There are Iraqi miltary in civilian clothing watching and listening. WHEN THEY ARE FREE AND FEEL SAFE TO SPEAK THEIR MIND YOU HEAR MUCH DIFFERENT THINGS THAN EHAT IS SAID IN PUBLIC.
Would you go around RIGHT NOW in Iraqi prasing the coalition and damning Saddam? If I put a gun toyour head I could make you say whatever I wanted as well.

 

[Looney]

no the 17 Un resoltuions made this justified, along with our right to protect ourselves without having to ask anyone first. you missed the point again, in history everytime one power was supreme, they invaded and conquered foreign lands, when has the US taken control of a country and not given it back?

No, i didn't miss the point. I asked you, is the death of people still justified just because the land wasn't occupied? Most of the previous wars were perceived threat as well... the threat of communism, but they never directly affected the US.

What about the two dozen other wars that were started since the creation of the UN? who is the ONLY country to ever even ask?

The US only asked during the gulf war... every other war was without the UN.

You want to comapre hitler to Saddam, ok, Hitler built one of the most ferocious militaries without oil reserves saddam has. Hitler took a slumping economy and turned it around, saddam never could even with those vast oil reserves. Hitlers people lived a good lifestyle, with good food, clothes, jobs, school, hospitals, Saddam can't even feed his own people. Was one "worse" in their acts of genocide and warmongering, sure, but hitler was by far a superios leader for his own people. he actually accomplished things that benefitted them.

There are a lot of other bad rulers... is the US going to go after them as well? Hitler was a threat to the world. Saddam is a threat to his people. I never said anywhere that Saddam should just be left alone. I do believe he needs to be taken down, but it should have been with UN sanction and with the might of the world. Hell, even George Bush Sr said it was a bad idea for the US to go into this alone. Now that the US is in it, i'm all for the US doing this and doing this right. But if you continue to ignore the world opinion, and ignore the consequences of your action, the US is just going to isolate themselves even more.

 

[Looney]

this also is in response to ZERo and his post about taking food then praising Saddam.

There are Iraqi miltary in civilian clothing watching and listening. WHEN THEY ARE FREE AND FEEL SAFE TO SPEAK THEIR MIND YOU HEAR MUCH DIFFERENT THINGS THAN EHAT IS SAID IN PUBLIC.
Would you go around RIGHT NOW in Iraqi prasing the coalition and damning Saddam? If I put a gun toyour head I could make you say whatever I wanted as well.

Dude, you need to watch more than just the US news i think. These are regions where the US have completely secured... so secured that they're now bringing huge envoys of aid. They wouldn't do this unless it was secured.

And the sentiment is the same throughout the middle east. No government in the middle east likes Saddam. They all know he's not a real muslim, that he treats his people like crap, and that he would have invaded them in the late 80s if the world did not step in. They know this, they're not stupid. But again, you see a resentment towards this war. Not for what they're trying to do, but how they're doing it. They don't want this to be a US war, but that's what it has become.

The biggest problem with getting UN approval was because of the French... there's no doubt about that. If the French didn't exist, or didn't have so much invested with Iraq, this war would have been a world coalition and not a US and UK war.

 

[zer0burn]

Again I do agree that Russia and France does have much to lose and thats a main reason why they did not support the war.


interesting read

 

[Alistar7]

Originally posted by: Moralpanic

this also is in response to ZERo and his post about taking food then praising Saddam.

There are Iraqi miltary in civilian clothing watching and listening. WHEN THEY ARE FREE AND FEEL SAFE TO SPEAK THEIR MIND YOU HEAR MUCH DIFFERENT THINGS THAN EHAT IS SAID IN PUBLIC.
Would you go around RIGHT NOW in Iraqi prasing the coalition and damning Saddam? If I put a gun toyour head I could make you say whatever I wanted as well.

Dude, you need to watch more than just the US news i think. These are regions where the US have completely secured... so secured that they're now bringing huge envoys of aid. They wouldn't do this unless it was secured.

And the sentiment is the same throughout the middle east. No government in the middle east likes Saddam. They all know he's not a real muslim, that he treats his people like crap, and that he would have invaded them in the late 80s if the world did not step in. They know this, they're not stupid. But again, you see a resentment towards this war. Not for what they're trying to do, but how they're doing it. They don't want this to be a US war, but that's what it has become.

The biggest problem with getting UN approval was because of the French... there's no doubt about that. If the French didn't exist, or didn't have so much invested with Iraq, this war would have been a world coalition and not a US and UK war.

We asked in afghainstan as well, notice no other country EVER has bothered.

"Most of the previous wars were perceived threat as well... the threat of communism, but they never directly affected the US."

Agreed other than the Japs we had no need to get invloved in ww1 or ww2, notice we still get complaints about not acting SOON enough when it was their butt on the line, when its their profits and the Iraqi peoples freedom its a different story.

I do read other accounts, even Al-Jazeera...

this is 45 countries strong, the 1991 cam[paign had 31 supporters....

 

[zer0burn]

notice how though in this instance the americans are funding the countries in the coalition?

 

[Looney]

We asked in afghainstan as well, notice no other country EVER has bothered.

What's the point in asking if you're not going to accept their decisions?

 

[Spicedaddy]

this is 45 countries strong, the 1991 cam[paign had 31 supporters....

Here's a nice article on the subject.


A few quotes:

Palau. That is the name of a North Pacific Ocean nation, unfamiliar to me until recently. With its population of 19,409, the island group southeast of the Philippines has fewer people than Chicago's Southwest Side Beverly neighborhood.

Other countries in the coalition are the Solomon Islands, the Marshall Islands and Costa Rica, like Palau, nations without armies.

In 1991, the 32 or 34 nations making up the coalition supplied heavy-duty military aid: tens of thousands of troops, field hospitals, ships and fighter planes.

 

[Alistar7]

Originally posted by: zer0burn
notice how though in this instance the americans are funding the countries in the coalition?

notice how this time the countries that stand to gain financially from Saddam staying in power are the only ones complaining?

 

[zer0burn]

I already said yes they were...

but the US is bribing other countries...

arent they just as guilty?

 

[Alistar7]

Originally posted by: Spicedaddy

this is 45 countries strong, the 1991 cam[paign had 31 supporters....

Here's a nice article on the subject.


A few quotes:

Palau. That is the name of a North Pacific Ocean nation, unfamiliar to me until recently. With its population of 19,409, the island group southeast of the Philippines has fewer people than Chicago's Southwest Side Beverly neighborhood.

Other countries in the coalition are the Solomon Islands, the Marshall Islands and Costa Rica, like Palau, nations without armies.

In 1991, the 32 or 34 nations making up the coalition supplied heavy-duty military aid: tens of thousands of troops, field hospitals, ships and fighter planes.

support can be nothing more than lip service, alot offered military aid, we decided not to accept, easier to keep control of a unified force.

 

[SickBeast]

If you want my honest opinion, here it is:

This war with Iraq is going to INCREASE the chances of terror attacks against the US. The war is only going to make people hate Americans more than they do now. I wish I could stand by the US, but I can't justify this war. It's a pre-emptive strike with the intent on changing the political system of Iraq. The fact remains that they haven't found WMD in Iraq yet. I know that they could be hidden somewhere, but it is my belief that Iraq has already given most if not all of their WMD to terrorist organizations. I also think that the UN is an important world entity that should be respected.

I definitely hear what you're saying though, and it scares me to think that bioterrorism could hit us here in North America. If it had been the other way around and Iraq had attacked the US, I would be 100% in favour of attacking them, and I personally would take up arms to defend our closest neighbours. I know that if Canada were ever threatened, the US would be there to back us up. I'm sure that if things escalate and WMD are found in Iraq there will be a change in Canada's stance on the war.

 

[NightTrain]

Originally posted by: SickBeast
If you want my honest opinion, here it is:

This war with Iraq is going to INCREASE the chances of terror attacks against the US. The war is only going to make people hate Americans more than they do now.

Until I saw the WTC fall I would have believed you. They can't hate us anymore than they already do.

 

[Alistar7]

Originally posted by: zer0burn
I already said yes they were...

but the US is bribing other countries...

arent they just as guilty?

How is offering aid in return for support the same thing?

Are their international sanctions we ourselves signed onto that we agreed to violate and work against using our power?


France, Germany, and Russia were given great deals with Saddam in return for their help in getting sanctions lifted early, while they themselves were also in charge of making sure they were enforced.
They allied themselves with him in such a manner that they couldn't allow him to be removed from power and still get paid. Personaly I think their actions and true motivations are far more sinisiter and morally bankrupt than ours.

Are they concerned about the millions that died during the sacntions due to Saddam's non-compliance, no. But they are gravely concerned about the hundreds we MAY have killed...

 

[Alistar7]

Originally posted by: SickBeast
If you want my honest opinion, here it is:

This war with Iraq is going to INCREASE the chances of terror attacks against the US. The war is only going to make people hate Americans more than they do now. I wish I could stand by the US, but I can't justify this war. It's a pre-emptive strike with the intent on changing the political system of Iraq. The fact remains that they haven't found WMD in Iraq yet. I know that they could be hidden somewhere, but it is my belief that Iraq has already given most if not all of their WMD to terrorist organizations. I also think that the UN is an important world entity that should be respected.

I definitely hear what you're saying though, and it scares me to think that bioterrorism could hit us here in North America. If it had been the other way around and Iraq had attacked the US, I would be 100% in favour of attacking them, and I personally would take up arms to defend our closest neighbours. I know that if Canada were ever threatened, the US would be there to back us up. I'm sure that if things escalate and WMD are found in Iraq there will be a change in Canada's stance on the war.

why doesnt it bother you that he has used BANNED weapons to attack his neighbor again, Kuwait, maybe not WMD but still exactly the thing 12 years of UN controlled policy was supposed to eliminate.

I agree with your asumption that it is very likely he ALREADY gave WMD away, if he had destroyed the ones he ADMITTED having he would have offered up the proof and sent the inspectors home and stayed in power free of sanctions.

Your acknowledgement of the potentially catastrophic effect ANY bio attack could have just needs to be added to the definite possibility he could have, and still could while in power, supply WMD to ANY terrorist group. I would hope no one is still claiming there are no ties with Iraq and terrorism.
I'm not saying Al-Queda, probably some minor connection despite their theological differences, their feelings towards the west and their perceived persecution by the west makes them wary comrades at best, only acting when it suits their interests equally or attacks ours.

Would America care WHAT terrorist group wound up committing an attack with some of his WMD?
Trust me we won't be saying sorry, we were wrong, he wasn't supplying Al-Queda, it was the PLO, we were wrong so we deserve this...

What wars has the Canadaian government particiapted in, officially anyways?

This is NOT a pre-emptive strike to change the government, if Saddam had destroyed what WMD he admitted he had and proved this beyond a reasonable doubt we would have left him alone. Don't let the talk of liberating Iraqi's fool you too much, FANTASTIC extra, the way he has treated his own people only makes our job easier, but we are there to protect ourselves from his WMD and to stop him from hadning them out. There may be those that will never like the fatc we removed him, but I doubt there will be many, those that lost the power they held before most likely.

Thanks for keeping your reply ON TOPIC and showing you are capable of logic.....nice change of pace.

...this means its time for me to chill for a few, not only are Sickbeast and I starting to agree, worse yet he is starting to sound rational.....lol. J/K Sick, thanks again for the good post.

 

[SickBeast]

What wars has the Canadaian government particiapted in, officially anyways?

WWI, WWII, Korean War, War of 1812 (we won...sorry...couldn't resist)

Canada tends to stay out of international wars whenever possible.

<edit: Canada officially sent troops to Afghanistan as well after the Sept.11 attacks>

 

[Alistar7]

Was Korea sanctioned by the UN?

 

[zer0burn]

what country is the one that ultimately kick started Iraq's chemical and biological programs?

I'll let you figure that one out on your own as you like doing research

 

[Alistar7]

The same country that heled what was seen at the time as a "moderate" arab leader.

Which country willingly admits its culpeability in this situation and understands their repsonsibility?
Which country is willing to take action to correct its mistake?

What other countries armed him as well? What other countries were and are still trying to make a buck off Saddam even NOW that they know what he is like...?

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: Alistar7
Was Korea sanctioned by the UN?

yep

It seems so. I don't think that there was much chance of the UN backing this war though, because of the veto powers that said they were against the war no matter what. Neither side seemed willing to compromise, so here is where we ended up. I really hope that the war ends soon. So much death and destruction in the news lately. I really hope that there isn't retaliation against the US from all of this. People in that part of the world seem really pissed off tho.

 

[zer0burn]

your telling me he was considered a moderate arab leader considering the way he came to power threw assassinations...

Furthermore a moderate arab leader when the US CIA was giving him lists of individuals whom would oppose him.

a moderate arab leader whom the US used to route out communism within the country?

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: zer0burn
what country is the one that ultimately kick started Iraq's chemical and biological programs?

I'll let you figure that one out on your own as you like doing research

That's a pretty inflamatory comment, and I think it's pretty offensive. Are you Canadian? The US has always been our closest ally. The corruption of the Reagan administration is to blame for giving Iraq chemical agents, not the American people.

 

[zer0burn]

yes Im Canadian however its 100% accurate...

Rumsfield before used to meet with saddam in the 80's

threw third parties they sold them countless military equip and supplied them with chemical weapons

I didnt blame the people but the country

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: zer0burn
yes Im Canadian however its 100% accurate...

Rumsfield before used to meet with saddam in the 80's

threw third parties they sold them countless military equip and supplied them with chemical weapons

I didnt blame the people but the country

Different war buddy... Did we have any evidance that saddam would turn out to be so ruthless?

 

[zer0burn]

does that make it just?