A question to pro-choice parents, or to people with pro-choice parents

[mxyzptlk]

Originally posted by: MonkeyK
Your child could just as well ask,
"Would you have used birth control or abstained if I would have been inconvenient?"

*shrug* Abortion controls birth by preventing it.

It's a more expensive form of birth control, but I don't really see the functional difference.

 

[OCGuy]

If there is something that can identify the sexuality of a child before they are born, would people OK with a parent aborting only gay kids?

We will need to have "common sense" abortion laws. Just like there are "common sense" freedom of speech laws.

 

[mxyzptlk]

I think a woman should be able to decide to have an abortion for any reason she may desire.

What would be a common sense abortion law?

 

[ITJunkie]

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
You conflate the terms "Pro-choice" with "Pro-abortion".

I am a parent and I would never in a million years advocate that my wife or daughters or anyone else that I know get an abortion. I will not, however, deny them their right to decide what is the path they want their life to go down.

You get to make the choices that impact your life greatly (where you will work, live, etc). Denying someone else the right to decide something that will have a life-altering effect on theirs is not something that you (collective noun) should have the ability to do for others.

/thread!

 

[davestar]

why do nearly all abortion debates miss the core question: is abortion equivalent to (or a slight shade of grey below) murder?

i'm pro-choice because i don't think that the decision to have an abortion, while not trivial, is on par with ending a life. i'd imagine that all pro-choice people have similar outlooks. i'd also imagine that pro-lifers believe that abortion is akin to murder.

really everything else that we have to say about the topic is superfluous as compared to this question. i don't argue abortion rights with pro-lifers because i know that they feel that i'm advocating a form of murder. there's no way to determine a right and a wrong. society doesn't have a concensus as it does with murder/rape/theft and religion can't be an arbiter in a free society.

 

[StageLeft]

I think for many once they have kids it makes abortion a harder thing to stomach.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: mxyzptlk
I think a woman should be able to decide to have an abortion for any reason she may desire.

What would be a common sense abortion law?

at any point in the pregnancy?

 

[DarrelSPowers]

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Originally posted by: DarrelSPowers

Originally posted by: Atreus21
We can't choose to murder, or steal, or things like that. There are choices that are not allowed. Abortion, in my opinion, should be such a choice.

Ah see that's where you're wrong. People choose to murder, steal, rape, pillage and all that every day. You may choose not to. Your choices make you who you are, and you have to live with the consequences of the choices you make for the rest of your life. I could choose to get up and walk out of my office on this beautiful sunny day, but I'd rather not deal with the consequences of losing my job.

You believe that abortion should be lumped in the same category as murder, with good reason, as the person having the abortion is choosing to prematurely end a life.

I on the other hand, believe that the concequences of having an abortion are bad enough without legal action as well. A woman who has an abortion has to live the rest of her life knowing that she chose to kill her unborn child. If a woman wants to make this choice, she should have the liberty to do so.

I can see your point, but couldn't the same argument be made for infanticide, or some other type of murder?

No, the same argument couldn't be made for murder. The reason it can't is because murder is one fully developed human consiously taking the life of another fully developed human being (fully developed = born, no longer fetus).

The real issue is where to draw the line. Most pro life folks are right in the thinking that abortion is a form of murder, and should be punished as such. However, its true to some extent (i'm no biologist so don't tear me apart on this) that a fetus is not yet a conscious human, especially in the early stages... so where do we separate murder and abortion? Since I'm fairly uneducated in the stages of life, pre-birth, I say leave it up to the woman to decide if she wants to kill her unborn child, as its really part of her body in the early stages.

I think the real problem with Pro life people is that they also tend to support abstinence only sex education.

The fact is, sex is fun, and people are going to do it. More uneducated kids lead to more unwanted and "inconvenient" pregnancies. I mean, if my father never gave me "the talk" and told me about the wonders of condoms and birth control, I'd probably have quite a few mouths to feed already...

So yeah, I guess I just stated my major beef with social conservatives... ban abortion, don't tell kids about condoms... yeah, GREAT idea, thank god for my America hating hippie parents.

 

[mxyzptlk]

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: mxyzptlk
I think a woman should be able to decide to have an abortion for any reason she may desire.

What would be a common sense abortion law?

at any point in the pregnancy?

Yea, at any point where the developing fetus can't survive on its own, unassisted, outside of the womb. If it can make it on its own, then put it up for adoption I guess.. let it rot in system, like all the other kids

In that situation, I'd feel that the mother waited too long and should've had the abortion sooner.

 

[CycloWizard]

Atreus, you first must ask if right and wrong exist. For those who argue that it does not, your question is nonsense. Thankfully, their position means that they will have no problem if you decide to kill them on a whim, since morality is in the eye of the beholder. Thus, we will be left only with non-relativists. Then and only then will this discussion have any meaning.

 

[ebaycj]

Originally posted by: mxyzptlk

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: mxyzptlk
I think a woman should be able to decide to have an abortion for any reason she may desire.

What would be a common sense abortion law?

at any point in the pregnancy?

Yea, at any point where the developing fetus can't survive on its own, unassisted, outside of the womb. If it can make it on its own, then put it up for adoption I guess.. let it rot in system, like all the other kids

In that situation, I'd feel that the mother waited too long and should've had the abortion sooner.

100% agree.

"Survive, on its own, UNASSISTED (by medical devices), outside the womb" being the key.

 

[dyna]

Originally posted by: ebaycj

Originally posted by: mxyzptlk

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: mxyzptlk
I think a woman should be able to decide to have an abortion for any reason she may desire.

What would be a common sense abortion law?

at any point in the pregnancy?

Yea, at any point where the developing fetus can't survive on its own, unassisted, outside of the womb. If it can make it on its own, then put it up for adoption I guess.. let it rot in system, like all the other kids

In that situation, I'd feel that the mother waited too long and should've had the abortion sooner.

100% agree.

"Survive, on its own, UNASSISTED (by medical devices)" being the key.

Newborns can't feed themselves, provide themselves with shelter or clothing without assistance.

 

[ebaycj]

Originally posted by: dyna

Originally posted by: ebaycj

Originally posted by: mxyzptlk

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: mxyzptlk
I think a woman should be able to decide to have an abortion for any reason she may desire.

What would be a common sense abortion law?

at any point in the pregnancy?

Yea, at any point where the developing fetus can't survive on its own, unassisted, outside of the womb. If it can make it on its own, then put it up for adoption I guess.. let it rot in system, like all the other kids

In that situation, I'd feel that the mother waited too long and should've had the abortion sooner.

100% agree.

"Survive, on its own, UNASSISTED (by medical devices)" being the key.

Newborns can't feed themselves, provide themselves with shelter or clothing without assistance.

Hence why I added "(by medical devices)".

If a kid is healthy and can survive without medical procedures (beyond the standard birthing procedures), then the system (adoption/orphanage/etc.) can do the rest, assuming the mother doesn't wish to.

I just knew some jerkoff was going to bring up the fact that babies do rely on assistance to be able to have shelter/clothing/food, when we are obviously talking about not needing artificial life-support systems to survive (premature / unhealthy babies).

Two steps ahead of ya.

 

[mxyzptlk]

Thanks, I should've added that also.

 

[GTKeeper]

Originally posted by: Ocguy31
If there is something that can identify the sexuality of a child before they are born, would people OK with a parent aborting only gay kids?

We will need to have "common sense" abortion laws. Just like there are "common sense" freedom of speech laws.

Here is a statistic that surprised me. 90% of women who find out that their unborn child has down syndrome, have an abortion. This was 2 weeks ago in the issue of THE WEEK.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: Atreus21"Would you have aborted me if I'd been inconvenient?"

It's an invalid question. It presupposes that there was a "him" or "her" to have been aborted in the first place. A fetus does not possess a personality--there isn't a person inside of it--there isn't a "him" or "her" or "me" to abort.

Similar is the situation of those of us born to pro-choice parents. Does it ever bother you that the only thing protecting you from non-existence is the simple fact that you were born at a time that your parents deemed convenient? And that otherwise, you'd have been destroyed?

It doesn't bother me at all anymore than the thought that if my parents hadn't copulated at a certain time on a certain day that I too would have never come into existence.

Had your fetus been aborted it would never have bothered you at all since you would have never existed, and likewise, had your particular sperm never encountered your ovum you would have never existed (or at least not exactly as you are now).

What if the world had ended before you were born? What if your parents had never met? This question about abortion is no different in principle than the infinite number of similar what if questions that would presuppose your existence.

I suggest that people focus on their actual existence and not become fixated with the billions of ways that they might have not come into existence. Take your own existence as an axiom and be happy about it.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: Atreus21Okay, then I revise the question. Assuming that there are people who would have an abortion, and nonetheless have children, how should they answer their child when the child asks that inevitable question?

"Child, there are millions of ways that things that could have happened in my life and your mother's life that would have prevented us from ever having met or from ever having liked one another or from ever having made love when we did. However, in spite of that, you do exist! Let's be thankful! We need not worry about the millions of arbitrary things that could have happened to prevent you from having come into existence. You are one of the most important people in the world to me and we'll have a big celebration for your birthday."

"Also, be thankful that we live in a free society and not a Iran-like Christian theocracy and that you will not be forced to become a breeding animal. The government will not force you to have dozens of children so that no potential child goes unborn and that no sperm or egg go wasted. You will not be a slave. Let's be very thankful that abortion is an option for us because it allows us to enjoy the wonderment of the opposite sex and of being a human being while at the same time being able to control our lives and our destinies."

How's that for an answer? If you were trying to raise children to be rational, to pursue their rational self interest and happiness, and to be respecting of the concept of individual rights, what would you tell them?

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: Atreus21You hear testimonials from women who have had abortions and later regretted it that indicate them making just such guesses, fruitless or not.

You have to wonder how many of those feelings of regret stem from our nation's indoctrination of Christianity. Had these women been born into a more rational society or raised with a rational atheist philosophy such as Objectivism or some sort of pseudo-Objectivism, might they not suffer from later feelings of guilt and regret? Were these women who felt the regret Christians or were they atheists?

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: ebaycj

Originally posted by: eskimospy
Sorry, but I'm not a parent. I personally view the pro-choice stance similarly to how some others in this thread have expressed it though, it's about respect for other people and their right to control their own body.

The only case I can really think of myself being pro-abortion for is the baby across the alley from my apartment window. That guy wakes me up constantly at ungodly hours of the morning. Interestingly enough though, my mother had an abortion before she had me. It went: Older brother... abortion... Eskimospy. Dodged a bullet there, eh?

Yes, you did.

Are you extremely bitter that your Mom murdered your middle sibling ?

I haven't read further in this thread yet to see his answer, but I'm going to guess that he's happy about it--and with all of those other ten million things that happened or that didn't happen that led to his being born...because if his mother hadn't had that abortion, chances are there would never have been an Eskimospy.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: DarrelSPowersA woman who has an abortion has to live the rest of her life knowing that she chose to kill her unborn child. If a woman wants to make this choice, she should have the liberty to do so.

That may be true, but if the decision were a rational decision then why would it bother a rational woman?

I suspect that much of the angst over this issue is borne by women who were indoctrinated with Christian mythology and Original Sin-type guilt. In contrast, your rational atheist woman just goes about her life not feeling badly that she made a rational decision to pursue her rational self interest and happiness.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: Ocguy31
If there is something that can identify the sexuality of a child before they are born, would people OK with a parent aborting only gay kids?

We will need to have "common sense" abortion laws. Just like there are "common sense" freedom of speech laws.

The law should be that if abortion is legal then it should be legal for any reason at all, even if it's for eugenics-type purposes. It's wrong to enslave women (and would-be-fathers) into having children they do not want to have for any reason, even if their reason for wanting to have an abortion is irrational or contrary to politically correct social engineering goals.

 

[PrinceofWands]

The fallacy of your post is that you equate pro-choice with a matter of convenience. Just because you're pro-choice doesn't mean you think abortion should be utilized for 'convenience'.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
Shades of "the road not taken". I wonder what Jeffery Dahmer's parents think of abortion? Or Hitler? Or Stalin?

Making guesses about what might have been after making an irrevocable choice is fruitless. Making choices after observing a few other people's choices where the outcome is based on an almost infinite number of variables does not guarantee a good outcome from a similar choice.

I disagree. I think as moral persons, we must make those guesses. You hear testimonials from women who have had abortions and later regretted it that indicate them making just such guesses, fruitless or not. If we make what turns out to be the wrong decision, shouldn't we feel regret, even if it does no good to regret?

And we also hear testimonials from women who have had abortions and later stood by their decisions, or women who did not have abortions and later regretted it. It's all relative.

 

[LumbergTech]

Originally posted by: Atreus21
Preface: I'm not yet a father, so I don't know as much about fatherhood or parenthood excluding my observations of my parents and my siblings who are married with children. I have much respect for you as a parent, and for being responsible.

Problem: Since my brother and his wife had their kids, my position on abortion became much more galvanized. I suppose in a very simple sense, I saw them as the object against which abortion advocates were arrayed. I couldn't stomach the idea that, for the sake of convenience, they might never have existed, and that they simply were lucky enough to be born in a convenient setting, to pro-life parents.

I've been asking myself if it ever crosses your mind (you being a pro-choice parent); the notion that someday, your child will grow up to an age suitable to understanding abortion, and that his or her parents are not opposed to it, and then put 2 and 2 together, and ask, "Would you have aborted me if I'd been inconvenient?"

Saying, "If your mother would've died in the birth, yes I would," is defensible. But I can't imagine any other possible answer.

Similar is the situation of those of us born to pro-choice parents. Does it ever bother you that the only thing protecting you from non-existence is the simple fact that you were born at a time that your parents deemed convenient? And that otherwise, you'd have been destroyed?

I think of these as questions any pro-choice parent or child of pro-choice parents can't help but ask themselves.

would you be equally upset if your parents simply had not had sex..and didnt have you?
if you were to look ahead a few moments past either event, the result is the same..

no you

frankly in the face of never existing..being murdered doesnt sound quite as bad to me

 

[ebaycj]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

Originally posted by: Atreus21Okay, then I revise the question. Assuming that there are people who would have an abortion, and nonetheless have children, how should they answer their child when the child asks that inevitable question?

"Child, there are millions of ways that things that could have happened in my life and your mother's life that would have prevented us from ever having met or from ever having liked one another or from ever having made love when we did. However, in spite of that, you do exist! Let's be thankful! We need not worry about the millions of arbitrary things that could have happened to prevent you from having come into existence. You are one of the most important people in the world to me and we'll have a big celebration for your birthday."

"Also, be thankful that we live in a free society and not a Iran-like Christian theocracy and that you will not be forced to become a breeding animal. The government will not force you to have dozens of children so that no potential child goes unborn and that no sperm or egg go wasted. You will not be a slave. Let's be very thankful that abortion is an option for us because it allows us to enjoy the wonderment of the opposite sex and of being a human being while at the same time being able to control our lives and our destinies."

How's that for an answer? If you were trying to raise children to be rational, to pursue their rational self interest and happiness, and to be respecting of the concept of individual rights, what would you tell them?

By far the best answer I've heard.