A question to pro-choice parents, or to people with pro-choice parents

[Atreus21]

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Why would you not advocate that your wife or daughters get an abortion?

I understand the corner you are trying to pin me in and I personally think that you are going to regret trying because it is a corner that has many doors that will lead you into an arena that you do not want to be in....one that causes you to answer questions about your own hypocrisies.

I will answer nonetheless and I hope that you will return the courtesy.

My reasons for not advocating for it is because I would not be able to live with the doubt and second guessing that would accompany it. Like every other person on the planet, my beliefs are in direct conflict with other beliefs that I hold. I am a hypocrite. Pure and simple.

As Hannibal Lecter would say, "Quid pro quo, Clarice".

I'm going off the assumption from the OP and other posts of yours that you are a Christian. My understanding is that God has granted all of us the ability to exercise free will and it is via that free will that a decision to acknowledge him and to accept Jesus as his son and savior that you are granted entrance to his kingdom.

Why do you want to deny someone of a gift given them (free will to exercise judgment) to make choices that will have a bearing on God's decision on whether they meet his criteria for an eternity in his kingdom?

For the time being, let's argue atheistically. I don't want to be accused of having a religious argument.

Free will is a gift, but that doesn't excuse us to be irresponsible. We don't have the right to choose anything we want. We can't choose to murder, or steal, or things like that. There are choices that are not allowed. Abortion, in my opinion, should be such a choice.

You are flat out wrong. We can and people do chose all of those things on a daily basis.

Exercising your free will to do what you want != society not holding you accountable for your choices.

I didn't say (or at least didn't mean) that you can't make any choice. Of course you can make any choice you want. But some choices are wrong, and should not be without consequence, as in the choice to commit a crime. I would think this is pretty common-sensical. We have the power to choose, but we are expected to use it responsibly.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: OrByte

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Originally posted by: OrByte

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
Shades of "the road not taken". I wonder what Jeffery Dahmer's parents think of abortion? Or Hitler? Or Stalin?

Making guesses about what might have been after making an irrevocable choice is fruitless. Making choices after observing a few other people's choices where the outcome is based on an almost infinite number of variables does not guarantee a good outcome from a similar choice.

I disagree. I think as moral persons, we must make those guesses. You hear testimonials from women who have had abortions and later regretted it that indicate them making just such guesses, fruitless or not. If we make what turns out to be the wrong decision, shouldn't we feel regret, even if it does no good to regret?

sure you can feel regret. But that is the consequence of your decisions and you are free to make those decisions.

But I think what you are talking about is imagining a whole scenario wherein your parents didn't have you as a child because of an abortion. You are questioning your existence by narrowly defining the parameters.... that seems pointless. There could be a million reasons why you wouldn't exist today...why just focus on the one?

Because that one is possibly the worst imaginable. Being killed by a murderer, or by nature, or by anything else is preferable to being killed by one's own parents, I think.

Then you should be thankful that your parents choose to have you. Are you looking for ways to be bitter at your parents about something?

That would be the only reason imho for you to go down this mental exercise.

Start looking at 'self hate' as the only reason for 'everything' as it will also explain why he might be bitter at his parents.

 

[ebaycj]

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Why would you not advocate that your wife or daughters get an abortion?

I understand the corner you are trying to pin me in and I personally think that you are going to regret trying because it is a corner that has many doors that will lead you into an arena that you do not want to be in....one that causes you to answer questions about your own hypocrisies.

I will answer nonetheless and I hope that you will return the courtesy.

My reasons for not advocating for it is because I would not be able to live with the doubt and second guessing that would accompany it. Like every other person on the planet, my beliefs are in direct conflict with other beliefs that I hold. I am a hypocrite. Pure and simple.

As Hannibal Lecter would say, "Quid pro quo, Clarice".

I'm going off the assumption from the OP and other posts of yours that you are a Christian. My understanding is that God has granted all of us the ability to exercise free will and it is via that free will that a decision to acknowledge him and to accept Jesus as his son and savior that you are granted entrance to his kingdom.

Why do you want to deny someone of a gift given them (free will to exercise judgment) to make choices that will have a bearing on God's decision on whether they meet his criteria for an eternity in his kingdom?

For the time being, let's argue atheistically. I don't want to be accused of having a religious argument.

Free will is a gift, but that doesn't excuse us to be irresponsible. We don't have the right to choose anything we want. We can't choose to murder, or steal, or things like that. There are choices that are not allowed. Abortion, in my opinion, should be such a choice.

That is where you are 100% wrong. You CAN INDEED "choose to murder, or steal, or things like that". Just because they are "not allowed" does not mean that you cannot choose to do those things, it means only that there are societal penalties associated with choosing such behavior (and being caught).

 

[ebaycj]

Originally posted by: eskimospy
Sorry, but I'm not a parent. I personally view the pro-choice stance similarly to how some others in this thread have expressed it though, it's about respect for other people and their right to control their own body.

The only case I can really think of myself being pro-abortion for is the baby across the alley from my apartment window. That guy wakes me up constantly at ungodly hours of the morning. Interestingly enough though, my mother had an abortion before she had me. It went: Older brother... abortion... Eskimospy. Dodged a bullet there, eh?

Yes, you did.

Are you extremely bitter that your Mom murdered your middle sibling ?

 

[OrByte]

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Originally posted by: OrByte

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Originally posted by: OrByte

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
Shades of "the road not taken". I wonder what Jeffery Dahmer's parents think of abortion? Or Hitler? Or Stalin?

Making guesses about what might have been after making an irrevocable choice is fruitless. Making choices after observing a few other people's choices where the outcome is based on an almost infinite number of variables does not guarantee a good outcome from a similar choice.

I disagree. I think as moral persons, we must make those guesses. You hear testimonials from women who have had abortions and later regretted it that indicate them making just such guesses, fruitless or not. If we make what turns out to be the wrong decision, shouldn't we feel regret, even if it does no good to regret?

sure you can feel regret. But that is the consequence of your decisions and you are free to make those decisions.

But I think what you are talking about is imagining a whole scenario wherein your parents didn't have you as a child because of an abortion. You are questioning your existence by narrowly defining the parameters.... that seems pointless. There could be a million reasons why you wouldn't exist today...why just focus on the one?

Because that one is possibly the worst imaginable. Being killed by a murderer, or by nature, or by anything else is preferable to being killed by one's own parents, I think.

Then you should be thankful that your parents choose to have you. Are you looking for ways to be bitter at your parents about something?

That would be the only reason imho for you to go down this mental exercise.

I'm thinking that if my parents were ardently pro-choice, I would be pretty bitter, yes.

I am thinking that if your parents were "ardently pro-choice" and they still had children then abortion (and the choice of abortion) was one of only a billion quadrillion variables that factored into their decision to have you as a child.

so, are you glad you weren't aborted?

 

[Atreus21]

Originally posted by: ebaycj

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Why would you not advocate that your wife or daughters get an abortion?

I understand the corner you are trying to pin me in and I personally think that you are going to regret trying because it is a corner that has many doors that will lead you into an arena that you do not want to be in....one that causes you to answer questions about your own hypocrisies.

I will answer nonetheless and I hope that you will return the courtesy.

My reasons for not advocating for it is because I would not be able to live with the doubt and second guessing that would accompany it. Like every other person on the planet, my beliefs are in direct conflict with other beliefs that I hold. I am a hypocrite. Pure and simple.

As Hannibal Lecter would say, "Quid pro quo, Clarice".

I'm going off the assumption from the OP and other posts of yours that you are a Christian. My understanding is that God has granted all of us the ability to exercise free will and it is via that free will that a decision to acknowledge him and to accept Jesus as his son and savior that you are granted entrance to his kingdom.

Why do you want to deny someone of a gift given them (free will to exercise judgment) to make choices that will have a bearing on God's decision on whether they meet his criteria for an eternity in his kingdom?

For the time being, let's argue atheistically. I don't want to be accused of having a religious argument.

Free will is a gift, but that doesn't excuse us to be irresponsible. We don't have the right to choose anything we want. We can't choose to murder, or steal, or things like that. There are choices that are not allowed. Abortion, in my opinion, should be such a choice.

That is where you are 100% wrong. You CAN INDEED "choose to murder, or steal, or things like that". Just because they are "not allowed" does not mean that you cannot choose to do those things, it means only that there are societal penalties associated with choosing such behavior (and being caught).

I know, but I think you know what I meant. Of course you can make any choice you want. But that doesn't mean one choice is a good as any choice. Some choices are good, and some are bad.

 

[ebaycj]

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Why would you not advocate that your wife or daughters get an abortion?

I understand the corner you are trying to pin me in and I personally think that you are going to regret trying because it is a corner that has many doors that will lead you into an arena that you do not want to be in....one that causes you to answer questions about your own hypocrisies.

I will answer nonetheless and I hope that you will return the courtesy.

My reasons for not advocating for it is because I would not be able to live with the doubt and second guessing that would accompany it. Like every other person on the planet, my beliefs are in direct conflict with other beliefs that I hold. I am a hypocrite. Pure and simple.

As Hannibal Lecter would say, "Quid pro quo, Clarice".

I'm going off the assumption from the OP and other posts of yours that you are a Christian. My understanding is that God has granted all of us the ability to exercise free will and it is via that free will that a decision to acknowledge him and to accept Jesus as his son and savior that you are granted entrance to his kingdom.

Why do you want to deny someone of a gift given them (free will to exercise judgment) to make choices that will have a bearing on God's decision on whether they meet his criteria for an eternity in his kingdom?

For the time being, let's argue atheistically. I don't want to be accused of having a religious argument.

Free will is a gift, but that doesn't excuse us to be irresponsible. We don't have the right to choose anything we want. We can't choose to murder, or steal, or things like that. There are choices that are not allowed. Abortion, in my opinion, should be such a choice.

You are flat out wrong. We can and people do chose all of those things on a daily basis.

Exercising your free will to do what you want != society not holding you accountable for your choices.

I didn't say (or at least didn't mean) that you can't make any choice. Of course you can make any choice you want. But some choices are wrong, and should not be without consequence, as in the choice to commit a crime. I would think this is pretty common-sensical. We have the power to choose, but we are expected to use it responsibly.

The problem with this post is your ABSOLUTE definition of "wrong".

"wrong" is different for different people. My definition of "wrong" is WAY different than your definition, I can assure you.

EDIT:
also your definition of "good and bad" from the post directly above mine.


Look. "Right and wrong, good and bad" may have ABSOLUTE meaning for you, as you have been taught. It is an extremely sharp black line on a white background.

However, when averaged across 300,000,000 people, all with differing backgrounds and beliefs, "right and wrong, good and bad" becomes more of a fuzzy black line, with greyish edges.

Lots of people may have the exact same line as you. Some may have it shifted slightly to the right or to the left, but 99% the same as you. Are those people so different from yourself? What about someone whose line was 80% the same as yours? See what I'm getting at?

 

[Atreus21]

Originally posted by: ebaycj

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Why would you not advocate that your wife or daughters get an abortion?

I understand the corner you are trying to pin me in and I personally think that you are going to regret trying because it is a corner that has many doors that will lead you into an arena that you do not want to be in....one that causes you to answer questions about your own hypocrisies.

I will answer nonetheless and I hope that you will return the courtesy.

My reasons for not advocating for it is because I would not be able to live with the doubt and second guessing that would accompany it. Like every other person on the planet, my beliefs are in direct conflict with other beliefs that I hold. I am a hypocrite. Pure and simple.

As Hannibal Lecter would say, "Quid pro quo, Clarice".

I'm going off the assumption from the OP and other posts of yours that you are a Christian. My understanding is that God has granted all of us the ability to exercise free will and it is via that free will that a decision to acknowledge him and to accept Jesus as his son and savior that you are granted entrance to his kingdom.

Why do you want to deny someone of a gift given them (free will to exercise judgment) to make choices that will have a bearing on God's decision on whether they meet his criteria for an eternity in his kingdom?

For the time being, let's argue atheistically. I don't want to be accused of having a religious argument.

Free will is a gift, but that doesn't excuse us to be irresponsible. We don't have the right to choose anything we want. We can't choose to murder, or steal, or things like that. There are choices that are not allowed. Abortion, in my opinion, should be such a choice.

You are flat out wrong. We can and people do chose all of those things on a daily basis.

Exercising your free will to do what you want != society not holding you accountable for your choices.

I didn't say (or at least didn't mean) that you can't make any choice. Of course you can make any choice you want. But some choices are wrong, and should not be without consequence, as in the choice to commit a crime. I would think this is pretty common-sensical. We have the power to choose, but we are expected to use it responsibly.

The problem with this post is your ABSOLUTE definition of "wrong".

"wrong" is different for different people. My definition of "wrong" is WAY different than your definition, I can assure you.

I bet we have some things in common. I'm sure we both believe murder is wrong, and rape is wrong, and theft is wrong. If we make any moral pronunciations at all, we must assume there is an absolute wrong and right. If there isn't, we have no compass.

However, certainly things aren't always so discernably black and white.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I ask myself these kinds of questions all the time:

I like to kick stones when I walk, but what if one of the stones I kick kills a bug what contains nutriment that would have fed a bird that pooped on a corn field that produced an ear of corn that would have gotten into a cereal box that would have fed a women who was going to have sex soon and that protein she never got was to become a vital part of her ova that would determine a very important part of its DNA that would determine if the child would have a fatal genetic flaw or not.

And this is just one example of the infinite terrors that haunt my mind.

Well, I tell you. What I do is wear a horse hair shit and I have a large whip I self-flagellate with because I know that I am evil, and I thank God every day some asshole didn't kick a stone that would have eliminated me.

I have found to my infinite amazement that no matter how worthless and evil I really am, to me my worthless, meaningless, happenstance of a life is more important than anything, and definitely worth a full blown psychosis and mental insanity.

You're talking about several iterations of circumstances. I'm talking about one iteration of deliberate action. The parents didn't have to choose to abort. It was a conscious choice. You kicking stones was not calculated to bring about the end result that it did. A parent having an abortion was calculated to kill the child.

You were talking about a hypothetical and so was I. I just happen to be a lot better at it than you are and so naturally, in addition to all the horrors that haunt your mind, I am able to create ones you haven't even imagined. Mine are more elaborate, more ornate, more fanciful, but they are all a simple application and result of the fact that you and me buddy, are insane. Any time you leave the world of the actual and the real to theorize, you create a world of thought that is of the past and tainted by memory and conditioning. There is only the now. There is nothing to do, no questions to ask, nothing to think about. There is only being and being is love. Wake the fuck up.

 

[ebaycj]

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Originally posted by: ebaycj

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Why would you not advocate that your wife or daughters get an abortion?

I understand the corner you are trying to pin me in and I personally think that you are going to regret trying because it is a corner that has many doors that will lead you into an arena that you do not want to be in....one that causes you to answer questions about your own hypocrisies.

I will answer nonetheless and I hope that you will return the courtesy.

My reasons for not advocating for it is because I would not be able to live with the doubt and second guessing that would accompany it. Like every other person on the planet, my beliefs are in direct conflict with other beliefs that I hold. I am a hypocrite. Pure and simple.

As Hannibal Lecter would say, "Quid pro quo, Clarice".

I'm going off the assumption from the OP and other posts of yours that you are a Christian. My understanding is that God has granted all of us the ability to exercise free will and it is via that free will that a decision to acknowledge him and to accept Jesus as his son and savior that you are granted entrance to his kingdom.

Why do you want to deny someone of a gift given them (free will to exercise judgment) to make choices that will have a bearing on God's decision on whether they meet his criteria for an eternity in his kingdom?

For the time being, let's argue atheistically. I don't want to be accused of having a religious argument.

Free will is a gift, but that doesn't excuse us to be irresponsible. We don't have the right to choose anything we want. We can't choose to murder, or steal, or things like that. There are choices that are not allowed. Abortion, in my opinion, should be such a choice.

You are flat out wrong. We can and people do chose all of those things on a daily basis.

Exercising your free will to do what you want != society not holding you accountable for your choices.

I didn't say (or at least didn't mean) that you can't make any choice. Of course you can make any choice you want. But some choices are wrong, and should not be without consequence, as in the choice to commit a crime. I would think this is pretty common-sensical. We have the power to choose, but we are expected to use it responsibly.

The problem with this post is your ABSOLUTE definition of "wrong".

"wrong" is different for different people. My definition of "wrong" is WAY different than your definition, I can assure you.

I bet we have some things in common. I'm sure we both believe murder is wrong, and rape is wrong, and theft is wrong. If we make any moral pronunciations at all, we must assume there is an absolute wrong and right. If there isn't, we have no compass.

However, certainly things aren't always so discernably black and white.

I disagree 100%. That assumption is the root cause of why you do not see clearly.

You only need a compass if you don't feel confident in where you are going.

My compass is my conscience. If I do something and I feel bad about it, I avoid doing that thing again. If I feel bad about doing something before I do it, I avoid doing that thing.

 

[RightIsWrong]

Originally posted by: Atreus21

I bet we have some things in common. I'm sure we both believe murder is wrong, and rape is wrong, and theft is wrong. If we make any moral pronunciations at all, we must assume there is an absolute wrong and right. If there isn't, we have no compass.

However, certainly things aren't always so discernably black and white.

Circumstances are not always cut and dry like you are trying to make them.

Take stealing for example. If there was a parent who lost their job and their family became homeless as a result and (s)he was shoplifting from a grocery store for food for them and Old Navy to get them clothing.....I don't necessarily view that as wrong. I know that in society's mind it is. But that doesn't mean that I have to agree with society.

Murder? There are justifiable homicides weekly if not daily in our country. Say you have some a$$hole guy that is beating his wife on a daily basis and she decides that she's had enough and smokes his a$$. I don't necessarily see that as wrong even if she had planned it out (premeditated) and then carried through with his murder. Society might.....

 

[DarrelSPowers]

Originally posted by: Atreus21
We can't choose to murder, or steal, or things like that. There are choices that are not allowed. Abortion, in my opinion, should be such a choice.

Ah see that's where you're wrong. People choose to murder, steal, rape, pillage and all that every day. You may choose not to. Your choices make you who you are, and you have to live with the consequences of the choices you make for the rest of your life. I could choose to get up and walk out of my office on this beautiful sunny day, but I'd rather not deal with the consequences of losing my job.

You believe that abortion should be lumped in the same category as murder, with good reason, as the person having the abortion is choosing to prematurely end a life.

I on the other hand, believe that the concequences of having an abortion are bad enough without legal action as well. A woman who has an abortion has to live the rest of her life knowing that she chose to kill her unborn child. If a woman wants to make this choice, she should have the liberty to do so.

 

[ebaycj]

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong

Originally posted by: Atreus21

I bet we have some things in common. I'm sure we both believe murder is wrong, and rape is wrong, and theft is wrong. If we make any moral pronunciations at all, we must assume there is an absolute wrong and right. If there isn't, we have no compass.

However, certainly things aren't always so discernably black and white.

Circumstances are not always cut and dry like you are trying to make them.

Take stealing for example. If there was a parent who lost their job and their family became homeless as a result and (s)he was shoplifting from a grocery store for food for them and Old Navy to get them clothing.....I don't necessarily view that as wrong. I know that in society's mind it is. But that doesn't mean that I have to agree with society.

Murder? There are justifiable homicides weekly if not daily in our country. Say you have some a$$hole guy that is beating his wife on a daily basis and she decides that she's had enough and smokes his a$$. I don't necessarily see that as wrong even if she had planned it out (premeditated) and then carried through with his murder. Society might.....

Yep, It seems to me that Atreus21 has not done a sufficient questioning of society, instead blindly trusting it. Look at what society is made of. Most people are stupid and small minded, and incapable of having this very debate. Do you really want to just blindly follow a mass of people like that? Or do you have enough self confidence to strike out on your own and determine what is right and wrong for you?

 

[DisgruntledVirus]

I say kill em all.

 

[Atreus21]

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong

Originally posted by: Atreus21

I bet we have some things in common. I'm sure we both believe murder is wrong, and rape is wrong, and theft is wrong. If we make any moral pronunciations at all, we must assume there is an absolute wrong and right. If there isn't, we have no compass.

However, certainly things aren't always so discernably black and white.

Circumstances are not always cut and dry like you are trying to make them.

Take stealing for example. If there was a parent who lost their job and their family became homeless as a result and (s)he was shoplifting from a grocery store for food for them and Old Navy to get them clothing.....I don't necessarily view that as wrong. I know that in society's mind it is. But that doesn't mean that I have to agree with society.

Murder? There are justifiable homicides weekly if not daily in our country. Say you have some a$$hole guy that is beating his wife on a daily basis and she decides that she's had enough and smokes his a$$. I don't necessarily see that as wrong even if she had planned it out (premeditated) and then carried through with his murder. Society might.....

I agree. But theft, if done for very good reasons such as what you mentioned, is sometimes excusable. In the example of murder you mentioned, I'd still say she is still guilty of murder. Circumstances being what they were, I can understand her action, but she had no right to take his life. In any case, killing is not always murder, as in the case of self-defense. I excuse some abortions for the same reason (ie, if the mother's life is in danger.)

 

[Atreus21]

Originally posted by: DarrelSPowers

Originally posted by: Atreus21
We can't choose to murder, or steal, or things like that. There are choices that are not allowed. Abortion, in my opinion, should be such a choice.

Ah see that's where you're wrong. People choose to murder, steal, rape, pillage and all that every day. You may choose not to. Your choices make you who you are, and you have to live with the consequences of the choices you make for the rest of your life. I could choose to get up and walk out of my office on this beautiful sunny day, but I'd rather not deal with the consequences of losing my job.

You believe that abortion should be lumped in the same category as murder, with good reason, as the person having the abortion is choosing to prematurely end a life.

I on the other hand, believe that the concequences of having an abortion are bad enough without legal action as well. A woman who has an abortion has to live the rest of her life knowing that she chose to kill her unborn child. If a woman wants to make this choice, she should have the liberty to do so.

I can see your point, but couldn't the same argument be made for infanticide, or some other type of murder?

 

[Atreus21]

Originally posted by: ebaycj

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong

Originally posted by: Atreus21

I bet we have some things in common. I'm sure we both believe murder is wrong, and rape is wrong, and theft is wrong. If we make any moral pronunciations at all, we must assume there is an absolute wrong and right. If there isn't, we have no compass.

However, certainly things aren't always so discernably black and white.

Circumstances are not always cut and dry like you are trying to make them.

Take stealing for example. If there was a parent who lost their job and their family became homeless as a result and (s)he was shoplifting from a grocery store for food for them and Old Navy to get them clothing.....I don't necessarily view that as wrong. I know that in society's mind it is. But that doesn't mean that I have to agree with society.

Murder? There are justifiable homicides weekly if not daily in our country. Say you have some a$$hole guy that is beating his wife on a daily basis and she decides that she's had enough and smokes his a$$. I don't necessarily see that as wrong even if she had planned it out (premeditated) and then carried through with his murder. Society might.....

Yep, It seems to me that Atreus21 has not done a sufficient questioning of society, instead blindly trusting it. Look at what society is made of. Most people are stupid and small minded, and incapable of having this very debate. Do you really want to just blindly follow a mass of people like that? Or do you have enough self confidence to strike out on your own and determine what is right and wrong for you?

Well, I think we can't live if we don't place some trust and faith in society, even if it is blind. The alternative is either be perpetually paranoid or a revolutionary. And frankly, I don't think it's ill-placed trust. Society seems to work fairly well around here, even with its faults.

I'm taking a break fellas. I actually have work to do today. Thanks for debating.

 

[ebaycj]

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Originally posted by: ebaycj

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong

Originally posted by: Atreus21

I bet we have some things in common. I'm sure we both believe murder is wrong, and rape is wrong, and theft is wrong. If we make any moral pronunciations at all, we must assume there is an absolute wrong and right. If there isn't, we have no compass.

However, certainly things aren't always so discernably black and white.

Circumstances are not always cut and dry like you are trying to make them.

Take stealing for example. If there was a parent who lost their job and their family became homeless as a result and (s)he was shoplifting from a grocery store for food for them and Old Navy to get them clothing.....I don't necessarily view that as wrong. I know that in society's mind it is. But that doesn't mean that I have to agree with society.

Murder? There are justifiable homicides weekly if not daily in our country. Say you have some a$$hole guy that is beating his wife on a daily basis and she decides that she's had enough and smokes his a$$. I don't necessarily see that as wrong even if she had planned it out (premeditated) and then carried through with his murder. Society might.....

Yep, It seems to me that Atreus21 has not done a sufficient questioning of society, instead blindly trusting it. Look at what society is made of. Most people are stupid and small minded, and incapable of having this very debate. Do you really want to just blindly follow a mass of people like that? Or do you have enough self confidence to strike out on your own and determine what is right and wrong for you?

Well, I think we can't live if we don't place some trust and faith in society, even if it is blind. The alternative is either be perpetually paranoid or a revolutionary.

You CAN place some trust and faith in society. Many things that are "absolutes" (murder of a living, born, innocent person, for example) are really just ideas that MOST of the members of a society feel is linked to the preservation of the race. MOST people are "good" people who would not harm another, provided they are not harmed by another.

However, you CANNOT blindly place 100% trust and faith in society. Many of "society"'s "rules" have been created by "bad" people to bilk the stupidity of the general populace for their own selfish gain. Due to the stupidity of the populace, often times "rules" persist, despite the deception. You CANNOT overlook this, to do so is to deny reality.

Also, you cannot overlook the fact that the rules change based on which society you are in. In some societies it is acceptable for adult males to use teenage boys as sex slaves (ancient greece / rome). In some societies, it is acceptable to kill living babies if you already have one child (current-day china). In some societies, it is acceptable to kill your daughter / wife if they have sex out of wedlock (current-day muslim belief, "honor killings"). In some societies it is OK for males to force themselves on any female they choose (caveman days). So you really need to examine your trust in "society", as even "society's" rules of "right and wrong" change depending on where and when you are.

(One more example: just as now, in America, it is "wrong" to discriminate on race, I predict that someday it will be "wrong" to discriminate on sexual preference. This is an example of how society's definition of "right and wrong" changes.)

Realistically, for me, I view it as a two layer filter. I have my own determination as to "right and wrong". Society has it's own determination as to "right and wrong", and theirs also usually has penalties associated with "wrong", which may or may not be enforced.

My decision making process is as follows: I basically do what I feel is right. Usually that is what society also feels is right. If I feel something is right, but society says it is wrong, I begin to weigh the penalties society places on doing that thing, and the likelihood of myself being caught, vs the benefits of doing what I feel is right. Often times I still do what I feel is right.

 

[jonks]

Playing what if games is pretty pointless.

If I had been aborted I wouldn't be upset about it because I wouldn't be here.

If a woman wanted an abortion but then decided adoption was the more humane choice, and the adopted parents turned out to be abusive sex offenders who raped the child for 15 years who then became a serial killer, was the mom choosing "life" the better option for everyone?

If a woman gets an abortion during high school and then goes on to become a doctor who cured cancer, yet in an alternate universe she has the baby, drops out and cares for it, marries a loser and never realizes her potential, is the world better off?

Men feel free to make pronouncements about abortion and the morality of the issue, religious or otherwise, because men were the ones who drew up the rules. You want an if? Here's one: IF women were larger and physically stronger than men leading to all societies being matriarchal, and if women had then authored the religious texts thousands of years ago, and if women enjoyed the place that men have held in society since the beginning, then men's opinion on abortion might just be a wee bit different.

"If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament."

 

[Deliximus]

i say KILL IT


i wouldn't mind not to be born if it saved my mother's life.

 

[ebaycj]

Wow I guess I scared him away with reason.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: ebaycj
Wow I guess I scared him away with reason.

When you're through patting yourself on the back check his post above yours.

 

[mxyzptlk]

Originally posted by: Atreus21
I couldn't stomach the idea that, for the sake of convenience, they might never have existed, and that they simply were lucky enough to be born in a convenient setting, to pro-life parents.

I don't really get why you can't be imaginative enough to conceive of an inconvenient setting where adding another mouth to feed would be detrimental to all involved, including the newborn. It's just not feasible to have every baby conceived.

Raising a child in an unfit environment is worse than simply not having the kid to begin with.

 

[WHAMPOM]

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
You conflate the terms "Pro-choice" with "Pro-abortion".

I am a parent and I would never in a million years advocate that my wife or daughters or anyone else that I know get an abortion. I will not, however, deny them their right to decide what is the path they want their life to go down.

You get to make the choices that impact your life greatly (where you will work, live, etc). Denying someone else the right to decide something that will have a life-altering effect on theirs is not something that you (collective noun) should have the ability to do for others.

Why would you not advocate that your wife or daughters get an abortion?

Pro-choice is support either way. Advocating abortion against their wishes is sick and vise-versa too. :light:

 

[MonkeyK]

Your child could just as well ask,
"Would you have used birth control or abstained if I would have been inconvenient?"