A question about the "rich paying their fair share" charge...

[Engineer]

Yet I'm in the top 5% of income, over 250k. The left and liberals keep telling me I'm rich. Answer the fucking question - what loophole and tax breaks do a dual income W2 family have?

I'm talking to you and the president who keep calling me "the millionaires and billionaires"

You can't. Name me said loopholes. NAME THEM for a dual income W2 family of professionals!!!!!

Name them.

Name how much your taxes have went up? Name it? Come one...he said he would raise your taxes....name it? How much.....Come on big man...name it? Tell us how much you pay more now than you did before Obama came to office....come on....you can't....come one....NAME JUST HOW MUCH YOUR TAXES HAVE WENT UP....you know that they did....how much?

I mean come one....he said that YOU....YOU and YOUR ESTATE WERE RICH....How much more have you paid? Just spit it out....you can't but I know it must be true as ALL the Dems and guberment said that your taxes were going sky high.....it has to be....NAME IT? Tell us...how much?

 

[Paul98]

I think it's a large problem that we do lump in what should be the middle class and the upper middle class when we are talking about income tax with the rich. Most of my friends and family who have finished school are what I would call middle or upper middle class. Per person making anywhere from 75k-300kish a year.

I also have a couple friends who are actually rich making I don't even know how much a year. They have a bunch of exotic cars, multiple homes,... They don't worry about how much they are spending, if they want it they have it.

People really need to stop lumping in those who should be middle or upper middle class with the rich.

 

[Paul98]

Yet I'm in the top 5% of income, over 250k. The left and liberals keep telling me I'm rich. Answer the fucking question - what loophole and tax breaks do a dual income W2 family have?

I'm talking to you and the president who keep calling me "the millionaires and billionaires"

You can't. Name me said loopholes. NAME THEM for a dual income W2 family of professionals!!!!!

Name them. I've shown this presidents plan's before and after the election (thank god they weren't passed, but this the mind of a liberal marxist).

So do tell me what loopholes exist for a dual income professional household affected by AMT. I'm all ears. I would like to take advantage of said loopholes and tax breaks.

Who the hell are you responding to???? it's certainly not me because I never mentioned your middle class income. I am talking about the rich which you clearly are not.

No one said you had loopholes. Because you aren't the one we have been talking about. We are talking about the rich, those making millions a year. If you want to ask a question to someone who thinks that dual income 250k a year has loop holes go ahead and ask them. But I sure as hell am not talking to you. and as I have stated stop talking to me like I am. You are NOT rich. Stop thinking you are.

 

[rchiu]

Not sure if posted already, but the OP does not state the income tax rate for the top 1% is 38%. The OP states that the top 1% pays 38% of all personal income taxes collected.

edit: Yep, looks like you and Fern ironed this out already.

Yeah, except that some liberals here still keep on and on about loopholes and what not when OP's figure is already the actual income taxes collected after so called loopholes.

Guess some people will always try and ignore the inconvenient truth....

 

[spidey07]

Name how much your taxes have went up? Name it? Come one...he said he would raise your taxes....name it? How much.....Come on big man...name it? Tell us how much you pay more now than you did before Obama came to office....come on....you can't....come one....NAME JUST HOW MUCH YOUR TAXES HAVE WENT UP....you know that they did....how much?

I mean come one....he said that YOU....YOU and YOUR ESTATE WERE RICH....How much more have you paid? Just spit it out....you can't but I know it must be true as ALL the Dems and guberment said that your taxes were going sky high.....it has to be....NAME IT? Tell us...how much?

Medicare tqax on capital gains thanks to obamacare which is 20% of my income/dividend reinvestment.

But I was mainly talking about Obama's position and plans.

Fuck Obama. I named it. Now you suck it.

I say again liberals, what loopholes and tax breaks exist for a dual W2 income family are you talking about. Explain it liberal fucks. Fuck be upon obama.

 

[Paul98]

Yeah, except that some liberals here still keep on and on about loopholes and what not when OP's figure is already the actual income taxes collected after so called loopholes.

Guess some people will always try and ignore the inconvenient truth....

I think a lot of people are not understanding the numbers that were posted by the OP.

Those were NOT the effective tax rates that each income group had to pay. Those numbers have nothing to do with the effective tax rates each have to pay.

 

[Engineer]

Medicare tqax on capital gains thanks to obamacare which is 20% of my income/dividend reinvestment.

But I was mainly talking about Obama's position and plans.

Fuck Obama. I named it. Now you suck it.

I say again liberals, what loopholes and tax breaks exist for a dual W2 income family are you talking about. Explain it liberal fucks. Fuck be upon obama.

So he has raised them NOW? Whoa....wait...it's 3.8% starting in 2013. OMG....

Wait, he hasn't raised your taxes yet? You've become a big fucking whiner....doesn't matter one bit that your taxes have been CUT......you're whining like a little girl over making $250,000+ per year and acting like your taxes have been jacked up through the roof. You pay less now than you did when he came to office and have each year....suck that bitch.

I say it again..."how much have your taxes increased and how much more have you already PAID in higher taxes over the last 2.5 years?"? Tell us....

 

[nonlnear]

Listen more carefully, and you'll hear the rich saying, 'give use far more of your wealth, and we'll pay the taxes on it (but fight for lower rates).

That's what's happened, as the statistics I listed summarize. The rich are paying a lot of taxes because they're *taking even more wealth*.

My statement was what the rich are doing.

Craig, a lot of people don't want wealth, and work furiously to get rid of every bit of wealth that passes through their bank account. There's more than a few million people in this country who, if given $1 million today, wouldn't have a penny to show for it in ten years. Who keeps taking their wealth?

That's not to say there aren't serious structural problems with our finance and taxation system that make it very easy (and unjustly so) to accumulate wealth once you get up into the tens of millions of dollars, but simply pointing to a bunch of people who don't have wealth and saying that it's prima facie evidence of injustice is a little silly. Some people just spend everything they get, and then some. Lots of people in fact.

 

[rchiu]

What if the OP's chart were modified to add an additional column. That column would show the % of income the class had.

E.g. Individuals in the top 1% pay 38% of Federal Personal Income Tax, and received 20% of all income. (The latter is obviously data I just made up for illustrative purposes)

If you receive 20% of total income should you pay only 20% of the total tax?

If not, then what percentage?

(What I'm getting at here is a new metric/model that better reflects the data. I think inclusion of %'s of income is highly beneficial.)

Fern

That depends if you are talking about INCOME or WEALTH. I think the top 1% take home about 25% of total INCOME. But owns about 42% of total WEALTH.

So if you talk about income only the top 1% is definitely paying more than their fair share. But like most people pointed out already, richest people don't really became rich because of their income, it's because of their wealth. In the form of stock, other investments, property, inheritance....etc.

But you know what? Liberals can whine about the wealth hold by the richest without paying "fair share", but how are you going to tax wealth? You already tax inheritance, when it was handed down, are you going to tax again every year? Dividend, that's already the net after corporate tax was paid, why should it get double taxed? They whine about loopholes but when pressed about what they are talking about, none can give any answer.

 

[Argo]

Who the hell are you responding to???? it's certainly not me because I never mentioned your middle class income. I am talking about the rich which you clearly are not.

No one said you had loopholes. Because you aren't the one we have been talking about. We are talking about the rich, those making millions a year. If you want to ask a question to someone who thinks that dual income 250k a year has loop holes go ahead and ask them. But I sure as hell am not talking to you. and as I have stated stop talking to me like I am. You are NOT rich. Stop thinking you are.

Then how come most policies aim to increase taxes on those making over $250? Some examples that come to mind:

* President asking to increase taxes only on families making over $250k (his famous no family making under 250k will see tax increase) speech.
* WA state proposing to institute 5% tax on anybody making over $250k.

I'm in the same boat as spidey - I'm on W2 and I don't get to see any of those sweet loopholes. So how about we close those loopholes, instead of raising taxes? How come politicians are not proposing that, but instead they're proposing increasing taxes on the rich (which in reality translates into increasing taxes on upper middle class)?

 

[blackangst1]

Craig, a lot of people don't want wealth, and work furiously to get rid of every bit of wealth that passes through their bank account. There's more than a few million people in this country who, if given $1 million today, wouldn't have a penny to show for it in ten years. Who keeps taking their wealth?

That's not to say there aren't serious structural problems with our finance and taxation system that make it very easy (and unjustly so) to accumulate wealth once you get up into the tens of millions of dollars, but simply pointing to a bunch of people who don't have wealth and saying that it's prima facie evidence of injustice is a little silly. Some people just spend everything they get, and then some. Lots of people in fact.

Yep. Happens all too often. (How the hell do you blow $114 million in FOUR years? Eegads.)

 

[alkemyst]

The thing about the rich not paying their fair share is no different than those that work under the table nor anyone that 'owns' a business.

If you are making salary/wages at $150k-500k or so and don't have a business you are paying your 'fair share'...these loophole have nothing to do with standard personal income tax.

While I don't agree with the metrics in place there, most of the ignorant out there don't understand and attack the wrong issues.

It's comes down to the poor as a whole no matter how much they are paying in, are not paying anywhere near what they take out.

 

[Atreus21]

What if the OP's chart were modified to add an additional column. That column would show the % of income the class had.

E.g. Individuals in the top 1% pay 38% of Federal Personal Income Tax, and received 20% of all income. (The latter is obviously data I just made up for illustrative purposes)

If you receive 20% of total income should you pay only 20% of the total tax?

If not, then what percentage?

(What I'm getting at here is a new metric/model that better reflects the data. I think inclusion of %'s of income is highly beneficial.)

Fern

Do you happen to know where I might find that data? Didn't you say the IRS had that information?

In response to rchiu's post, let's just do it by income. Wealth is a different animal, although if the data were available I'd love to include that.

Edit: Found it here:

http://www.irs.gov/taxstats/indtaxstats/article/0,,id=96981,00.html

Will update OP momentarily...

Tax Year 2009:
After tax credits, individuals with between $1 and $5,000 Adjusted Gross Income pay 4.8% of their AGI in income taxes.
Under the same conditions, individuals with between $5,000 and $10,000 Adjusted Gross Income pay 2.6% of their AGI in income taxes.
Under the same conditions, individuals with between $10,000 and $15,000 Adjusted Gross Income pay 2.3% of their AGI in income taxes.
Under the same conditions, individuals with between $15,000 and $20,000 Adjusted Gross Income pay 3% of their AGI in income taxes.
Under the same conditions, individuals with between $20,000 and $25,000 Adjusted Gross Income pay 4.5% of their AGI in income taxes.
Under the same conditions, individuals with between $25,000 and $30,000 Adjusted Gross Income pay 5.4% of their AGI in income taxes.
Under the same conditions, individuals with between $30,000 and $40,000 Adjusted Gross Income pay 6% of their AGI in income taxes.
Under the same conditions, individuals with between $40,000 and $50,000 Adjusted Gross Income pay 6.8% of their AGI in income taxes.
Under the same conditions, individuals with between $50,000 and $60,000 Adjusted Gross Income pay 7.7% of their AGI in income taxes.
Under the same conditions, individuals with between $75,000 and $100,000 Adjusted Gross Income pay 8.5% of their AGI in income taxes.
Under the same conditions, individuals with between $100,000 and $200,000 Adjusted Gross Income pay 11.9% of their AGI in income taxes.
Under the same conditions, individuals with between $200,000 and $500,000 Adjusted Gross Income pay 19.6% of their AGI in income taxes.
Under the same conditions, individuals with between $500,000 and $1,000,000 Adjusted Gross Income pay 24.4% of their AGI in income taxes.
Under the same conditions, individuals with between $1,000,000 and $1,500,000 Adjusted Gross Income pay 25.3% of their AGI in income taxes.
Under the same conditions, individuals with between $1,500,000 and $2,000,000 Adjusted Gross Income pay 25.6% of their AGI in income taxes.
Under the same conditions, individuals with between $2,000,000 and $5,000,000 Adjusted Gross Income pay 25.8% of their AGI in income taxes.
Under the same conditions, individuals with between $5,000,000 and $10,000,000 Adjusted Gross Income pay 25.4% of their AGI in income taxes.
Under the same conditions, individuals with $10,000,000 or more Adjusted Gross Income pay 22.6% of their AGI in income taxes.

 

[dank69]

Yet I'm in the top 5% of income, over 250k. The left and liberals keep telling me I'm rich. Answer the fucking question - what loophole and tax breaks do a dual income W2 family have?

I'm talking to you and the president who keep calling me "the millionaires and billionaires"

You can't. Name me said loopholes. NAME THEM for a dual income W2 family of professionals!!!!!

Name them. I've shown this presidents plan's before and after the election (thank god they weren't passed, but this the mind of a liberal marxist).

So do tell me what loopholes exist for a dual income professional household affected by AMT. I'm all ears. I would like to take advantage of said loopholes and tax breaks.

Answer the fucking question, fill me in on said loopholes.

If you and your wife make $250k/year and you are not a millionaire by now, then no amount of tax breaks/cuts/loopholes is going to help you. You are doing it wrong.

 

[Paul98]

Then how come most policies aim to increase taxes on those making over $250? Some examples that come to mind:

* President asking to increase taxes only on families making over $250k (his famous no family making under 250k will see tax increase) speech.
* WA state proposing to institute 5% tax on anybody making over $250k.

I'm in the same boat as spidey - I'm on W2 and I don't get to see any of those sweet loopholes. So how about we close those loopholes, instead of raising taxes? How come politicians are not proposing that, but instead they're proposing increasing taxes on the rich (which in reality translates into increasing taxes on upper middle class)?

You don't see any because you aren't rich as we have told spidey. You two are in the same boat as the rest of us who aren't making millions+ a year.

The reason they talk about 250k is because there aren't enough tax brackets right now. So you get lumped in with those making 100 times more than you. But you have to remember at 250k is where those tax increases were supposed to start, and if taxes were cut at a rate below you, you might end up paying less in taxes even though the rate you are in increased. Also the increase shouldn't be much at all untill quite a long way past that top tax rate mark. Especially if lower tax rates have gone down or more deductions can be made.

Though the main problem is that the top tax bracket hasn't moved up the way it should have. You have a huge increase from 0-200k, then it just stops... We need to get more tax brackets for those making millions and 10's of millions.

Then there is capitol gains tax rates.

 

[fskimospy]

If you and your wife make $250k/year and you are not a millionaire by now, then no amount of tax breaks/cuts/loopholes is going to help you. You are doing it wrong.

It blows my mind how so many people on here claim to be members of the top 2% of income earners in the US and simultaneously plead poverty. They are either lying (some of the definitely are), or they are so hilariously irresponsible with their finances that they have no one to blame but themselves.

They don't feel rich because they are incompetent.

 

[umbrella39]

but I don't think it gels very well with the image of horrible greedy overlords that rich people are portrayed to be at least on this forum.

I don't see them portrayed any such way here. The rich have no problem paying their share, it's the GOP politicians that stands in the way of that. No matter how you slice your pie.

 

[umbrella39]

Oh good, another strawman.

That's all they have anymore! The rich must get a kick of their poor defenders though, must feel empowering.

 

[umbrella39]

What loopholes can I take advantage of? Imagine a two income family in the top 5% of wage earners. Most deductions are gone and AMT starts taking a chunk.

Please tell me about the loopholes and tax breaks! I would like to take advantage of said loopholes and tax breaks!

LMAO at your grandiosity.

Spidey: I don't think any of those are 'loopholes'. You have been told by quite a few people that you are not in a position for a lot of loopholes. Not listening to that?

Nah, he's too busy trying to convince us and himself evidently that he's rich and that Obama has raised his taxes which we all know is bullshit, he is in full on pathological liar mode lately. If inane hack post count = dollars maybe he'd be rich...

 

[Nebor]

It blows my mind how so many people on here claim to be members of the top 2% of income earners in the US and simultaneously plead poverty. They are either lying (some of the definitely are), or they are so hilariously irresponsible with their finances that they have no one to blame but themselves.

They don't feel rich because they are incompetent.

http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2011...americans-bury-their-heads-in-piles-of-money/

Most rich people don't feel rich.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/08/fashion/08halfmill.html

 

[Atreus21]

I don't see them portrayed any such way here. The rich have no problem paying their share, it's the GOP politicians that stands in the way of that. No matter how you slice your pie.

So can we dispense with the whole notion that the rich don't pay their fair share and move on as a society?

 

[spidey07]

So he has raised them NOW? Whoa....wait...it's 3.8% starting in 2013. OMG....

Wait, he hasn't raised your taxes yet? You've become a big fucking whiner....doesn't matter one bit that your taxes have been CUT......you're whining like a little girl over making $250,000+ per year and acting like your taxes have been jacked up through the roof. You pay less now than you did when he came to office and have each year....suck that bitch.

I say it again..."how much have your taxes increased and how much more have you already PAID in higher taxes over the last 2.5 years?"? Tell us....

I already explained how he has raised my taxes, the medicare tax on capital gains and additional tax on income over 250.

I also pointed out his proposed tax increases - SS HCE cap, elimination of mortgage and charity deductions. The ONLY tax decrease I have seen is the SS cut which works out to 2k a year. I don't get that making work pay shit.

It's what he keeps saying that has me so concerned. These are his policies and are in his budget and keeps attacking me and lumping me in with "millionaires and billionaires".

So, what said loopholes and tax breaks can I take advantage of? According to the left there are all these loopholes. I would like to take advantage of said loopholes, so what are they for a dual W2 income family that is considered "rich"?

 

[highland145]

Does anyone know of the loopholes that the "rich" wage earners get excluding the long term capitol gains (if you consider that a loophole)? Not talking about corporate/business perks that aren't personal tax loopholes.

 

[fskimospy]

http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2011...americans-bury-their-heads-in-piles-of-money/

Most rich people don't feel rich.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/08/fashion/08halfmill.html

Oh I know they don't feel rich, but that comes from a distorted view of economic reality, not from a lack of income/wealth. If you look at some other studies of rich people, when asked what it would take to make them actually rich the answer was something like 30-50% more than what they were making... regardless of how much they were making. (ie: the millionaire thought he would be ok if he only had 1.5 million, but the guy with 2 million thought he would be ok if he just had 3 million, etc, etc.)

 

[woolfe9999]

What if the OP's chart were modified to add an additional column. That column would show the % of income the class had.

E.g. Individuals in the top 1% pay 38% of Federal Personal Income Tax, and received 20% of all income. (The latter is obviously data I just made up for illustrative purposes)

If you receive 20% of total income should you pay only 20% of the total tax?

If not, then what percentage?

(What I'm getting at here is a new metric/model that better reflects the data. I think inclusion of %'s of income is highly beneficial.)

Fern

Yes, percentage of total income paid is a better metric. But then there is the issue you raised about the difficulty of quantifying state income and sales taxes. I suspect, but do not have the data to verify one way or another, that the "upper middle" income region is where the highest percentage of income is paid, and that the "wealthy" pay considerably less as a percentage of their income, due to loopholes, the lower capital gains rate, and the regressiveness of sales and payroll taxes. However, until we have all the information we can't really say for sure.