A question about the "rich paying their fair share" charge...

[woolfe9999]

Ummm. You guys were already talking about it. I just wondered what you meant when you said cap gains weren't included.



If you want to, sure.

IIRC, the IRS has that data available. Its' taken from actual tax returns.



Ummm.. yeah, pretty much, but it's a little more complicated than that. Since we don't have a flat tax (one single rate) the progressive rates are going to skew that. Then there's the lower LT cap gain & div rates that counter that. Etc.



Not sure what position of the 'right' you're referring to.

Fern

The notion that the wealthy pay their "fair share" or more than their "fair share." Besides the fact that both sides have to admit that "fair share" is obviously subjective, the statistic that is often circulated to prove that the right pays at or more than its fair share - percentage of total tax paid - actually cuts both ways because a higher percentage of the total paid by the wealthy means the wealthy are grabbing a higher percentage of the total income. Someone on the left might argue that this means the wealthy should actually be taxed at a higher rate, which is opposite of the point of view that the statistic is offered to promote.

In any event, the statistic is highly dubious as proof of any point about "fair share" that the OP is trying to make for the reasons I've discussed - that it doesn't take into account how income distribution affects it, and it measures only a limited subject of taxation, specifically excluding regressive taxes like payroll and sales tax.

 

[Fern]

What if the OP's chart were modified to add an additional column. That column would show the % of income the class had.

E.g. Individuals in the top 1% pay 38% of Federal Personal Income Tax, and received 20% of all income. (The latter is obviously data I just made up for illustrative purposes)

If you receive 20% of total income should you pay only 20% of the total tax?

If not, then what percentage?

(What I'm getting at here is a new metric/model that better reflects the data. I think inclusion of %'s of income is highly beneficial.)

Fern

 

[soulcougher73]

What loopholes can I take advantage of? Imagine a two income family in the top 5% of wage earners. Most deductions are gone and AMT starts taking a chunk.

Please tell me about the loopholes and tax breaks! I would like to take advantage of said loopholes and tax breaks!

When you are rich you will know. So since you dont now..therefor you are not rich. So basically. Its nothing you need to worry about.

 

[Craig234]

Except the rich are not taking the wealth away by force...

Don't give me that ideological ranting garbage hyperbole BS.

They are taking it by force. They get the policies favoring them put into law by force, and they enforce them by force, and they have property rights by force.

Go tell the third world nation where a few families own 99% of the land and leave vast amounts unused while people who could farm it starve, while the government forcefully prevents the people from using that land for food, and tell me that they don't get their wealth by force.

There's a bottom line of wealth distribution in this country that determines a lot about the quality of life of the people and the people have the right to protect their well being. Any honest analysis of the situation will find that we're not talking about any defensible income gaps that have benefits; we're talking about a forceful move to plutocracy destroying the well being of the people.

You offer utter ideological crap and call it a response.

If you're that clueless, there's nothing to talk about. You clearly get nothing from facts and have no idea about the harm plutocracy causes.

Don't worry, the worse plutocracy gets, the better they get at giving you scapegoats to blame, so you can hate liberals for doing it to you, or commies, or whoever.

 

[spidey07]

When you are rich you will know. So since you dont now..therefor you are not rich. So basically. Its nothing you need to worry about.

But Obama and dems keep telling me I'm rich? I would like to take advantage of said loopholes and tax breaks, can you please tell me how as a dual income family of two professionals I can take advantage of said loopholes?

What are these loopholes and tax breaks for a dual W2 professional family?

I keep hearing the liberals trumpet this shit, so what are the loopholes and tax breaks for a typical professional or dual income family?

 

[Craig234]

What if the OP's chart were modified to add an additional column. That column would show the % of income the class had.

E.g. Individuals in the top 1% pay 38% of Federal Personal Income Tax, and received 20% of all income. (The latter is obviously data I just made up for illustrative purposes)

If you receive 20% of total income should you pay only 20% of the total tax?

If not, then what percentage?

(What I'm getting at here is a new metric/model that better reflects the data. I think inclusion of %'s of income is highly beneficial.)

Fern

Bottom line: pick a reasonable distribution of wealth good for society.

Adjust rates to move to and remain around that distribution.

If the rich make too little to incent them to be productive and are getting too little wealth, cut their taxes, give them incentives.

If they're getting too much wealth that would be better for society with others, raise their taxes. It's quite simple.

Then we can discuss the wealth distribution that's reasonable. Or can you? Not many can. "Oh, it's terrible to discuss that!" The rich pay attention.

 

[Craig234]

But Obama and dems keep telling me I'm rich?

What are these loopholes and tax breaks for a dual W2 professional family?

Link other than referencing repealing Bush tax cuts for you?

Until then, the issue for you is receiving the Bush tax cuts.

 

[spidey07]

Link other than referencing repealing Bush tax cuts for you?

Until then, the issue for you is receiving the Bush tax cuts.

Obama - "Those making over 250 thousand a year, the millionaires and billionaires." He's been on this line since before he was elected.

So WHAT are these loopholes and tax breaks the liberal keeps talking about?

And bullshit about it being just Bush tax cuts. Obama has consistently said he want's to eliminate mortgage interest and charity deduction, elminating the HCE limit for SS tax for "the rich". That fucker is talking about MY taxes. Not to mention the extra medicare tax obamacare already tacked on for "the rich".

I've paid attention to this fucker, have you?

 

[soulcougher73]

But Obama and dems keep telling me I'm rich? I would like to take advantage of said loopholes and tax breaks, can you please tell me how as a dual income family of two professionals I can take advantage of said loopholes?

What are these loopholes and tax breaks for a dual W2 professional family?

I keep hearing the liberals trumpet this shit, so what are the loopholes and tax breaks for a typical professional or dual income family?

You don't make enough. As i said. It doesn't pertain to you. So stop trying to protect the rich people, they wont let you into their circle.

 

[Craig234]

Obama - "Those making over 250 thousand a year, the millionaires and billionaires." He's been on this line since before he was elected.

So WHAT are these loopholes and tax breaks the liberal keeps talking about?

Try reading what I wrote. You list ZERO, NONE, NADA, AN ABSENCE OF any 'loopholes' he linked to the group making over 250 thousand.

And so, the ONLY thing he listed as far as you have posted is Bush tax cuts. And you are getting those, and those are what you can lose.

If you want to allege he talked about other loopholes FOR YOU, quote him.

Are you using the 'corporate jet' loophole? The oil company deductions? No?

OK, you edited it:

And bullshit about it being just Bush tax cuts. Obama has consistently said he want's to eliminate mortgage interest and charity deduction, elminating the HCE limit for SS tax for "the rich". That fucker is talking about MY taxes. Not to mention the extra medicare tax obamacare already tacked on for "the rich".

I've paid attention to this fucker, have you?

I asked for QUOTES. To talk with you, let's not have your version, let's have the quotes of him talking about loopholes FOR YOU in quotes, and then we can talk.

You can't even stay on the topic - are you asking what your loopholes are or ranting about taxes?

Yes, he wants small tax increases on 'the rich'. Repealing the Bush tax cuts over $250K would increases taxes, they say, $30 per $1000. OUCH for the group skyrocketing in income under current policies.

 

[Corn]

I think the point is pretty self-evident. In your OP you cite the income tax rate for the top 1% as 38%. Besides the problem with all the loopholes they take advantage of to avoid income tax, most of their money comes from capital gains and that is taxed at 15%. In our system, money that you earn from the sweat of your brow is generally taxed more than money you earn from investments.

Not sure if posted already, but the OP does not state the income tax rate for the top 1% is 38%. The OP states that the top 1% pays 38% of all personal income taxes collected.

edit: Yep, looks like you and Fern ironed this out already.

 

[alkemyst]

That's before tax breaks and loopholes

Find me a rich person that actually pays that amount in taxes and I will show you someone who isn't rich.

It's based on income though.

 

[spidey07]

Craig, I told you you weren't paying attention to this president. Here's a quick one. This is just on mortgage interest, the other aspects on HCE limit on SS and charity are easy to google as well.

http://money.cnn.com/2011/02/15/news/economy/mortgage_interest_deduction/index.htm

The Obama administration, as well as several tax and deficit commissions, have called for limiting or eliminating the deductions in the past. But the proposals have gone nowhere and the same outcome is expected this year.

 

[Craig234]

Craig, I told you you weren't paying attention to this president. Here's a quick one. This is just on mortgage interest, the other aspects on HCE limit on SS and charity are easy to google as well.

http://money.cnn.com/2011/02/15/news/economy/mortgage_interest_deduction/index.htm

I don't see that say "deductions for everyone making over $250K".

 

[spidey07]

I don't see that say "deductions for everyone making over $250K".

Have you ever actually done your taxes? Do you understand what a deduction is? Do you know that most deductions have an income limit that I can't take and this president is targeting the only ones I have left?

Under his proposal, taxpayers in the 33% and 35% tax brackets would only be able to deduct their contributions and mortgage interest payments at the 28% rate. It would affect those with taxable income of $250,000 and up and bring in $321 billion over 10 years, according to the White House.

I've mentioned the 4 biggest things this president has sought after to take more of my money, and these are facts.

1) Elimination or decrease in mortgage interest deductions for AGI over 250
2) Elimination of SS HCE limit or re-instate at 250k (difference between HCE limit and 250k not taxed)
3) Elimination or decrease in charitable donations
4) Obamacare adding 1.8% or so extra medicare tax on cap-gains (that part is actually law and passed by Obama).

So, are these the "loopholes" the liberals keep talking about? To me they are no loophole, they about the only deductions I have left since most all others I cannot take because "I make too much".

And as pointed out in this thread by many - I'm not rich. And I agree I'm not. And yet this president constantly attacks me as a source of "revenue". Well, may great fuck be upon him.

I've asked time and time and time again - what loopholes and tax breaks are the left still talking about? Everytime I ask this, no said loopholes and tax breaks can be shown. I would LOVE to take advantage of them, so PLEASE tell me what said loopholes and tax breaks there are!

 

[1prophet]

The real rich, Warren Buffet disowned his granddaughter for appearing in this documentary.

September 7, 2006 --
AN infuriated Warren Buffett
has renounced one of his granddaughters - telling her she is no longer
his relative "legally or emotionally" because she took part in a
documentary about the lives of the very rich.

Nicole Buffett, the adopted daughter of Buffett's son Peter and biological daughter of Peter's ex-wife Mary, was featured in Jamie Johnson and Nick Kurzon's
documentary, "The One Percent," which debuted at the Tribeca Film
Festival this year and is a follow-up to Johnson's "Born Rich."
Enraged that Nicole not only participated in the documentary, but also
plugged it on National Public Radio and "Oprah," Buffett wrote Nicole
an "angry letter" two weeks ago telling her she was no longer part of
his life, a source tells Page Six.
Buffett wrote, "I have not
emotionally or legally adopted you as a grandchild, nor have the rest
of my family adopted you as a niece or a cousin."

​

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__XdlmFJYZA

This 80-minute documentary focuses on the growing "wealth gap" in America, as seen through the eyes of filmmaker Jamie Johnson, a 27-year-old heir to the Johnson & Johnson pharmaceutical fortune. Johnson, who cut his film teeth at NYU and made the Emmy®-nominated 2003 HBO documentary Born Rich, here sets his sights on exploring the political, moral and emotional rationale that enables a tiny percentage of Americans - the one percent - to control nearly half the wealth of the entire United States. The film Includes interviews with Nicole Buffett, Bill Gates Sr., Adnan Khashoggi, Milton Friedman, Robert Reich, Ralph Nader and other luminaries.

 

[Craig234]

Spidey: I don't think any of those are 'loopholes'. You have been told by quite a few people that you are not in a position for a lot of loopholes. Not listening to that?

 

[blackangst1]

The real rich, Warren Buffet disowned his granddaughter for appearing in this documentary.





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__XdlmFJYZA

Crotchety old man! All kidding aside, I wonder WTF she said. Marked for later to find and watch.

 

[Craig234]

The real rich, Warren Buffet disowned his granddaughter for appearing in this documentary.

I thought it wasn't a very good movie, and that Warren Buffet was a real jerk for his treatment of the young woman. Forget the money, as family.

 

[spidey07]

Spidey: I don't think any of those are 'loopholes'. You have been told by quite a few people that you are not in a position for a lot of loopholes. Not listening to that?

I've been told I'm rich by this administration and democrats. I admit I am not, but I do however have an AGI greater than 250k. I'm in the really get screwed hard arena - make enough income to be screwed, but not enough to take advantage of said loopholes.

So, what loopholes are we talking about for a dual income W2 professional family? What loopholes exist for a family bringing in under 400 gross? What fucking loopholes are the left talking about!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Name them.

 

[Engineer]

I've been told I'm rich by this administration and democrats. I admit I am not, but I do however have an AGI greater than 250k. I'm in the really get screwed hard arena - make enough income to be screwed, but not enough to take advantage of said loopholes.

So, what loopholes are we talking about for a dual income W2 professional family? What loopholes exist for a family bringing in under 400 gross? What fucking loopholes are the left talking about!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Name them.

Obama, despite what he has said, has cut your taxes (or extended the other cuts) multiple times and has never raised them a penny as of now. I'll tell you what...I'll trade your income with mine and won't whine one fucking bit about higher taxes....deal?


Hell, he is a better Republican than the original GOP...he is proposing even more tax cuts right now to spur the economy (even though decades of tax cuts have done nothing).

You've become a huge fucking whiner.

 

[Craig234]

I've been told I'm rich by this administration and democrats. I admit I am not, but I do however have an AGI greater than 250k. I'm in the really get screwed hard arena - make enough income to be screwed, but not enough to take advantage of said loopholes.

Yes, I've long said you are in the 'get screwed on taxes' bracket, but that bracket can't complain when you consider their share of income growth.

So, what loopholes are we talking about for a dual income W2 professional family? What loopholes exist for a family bringing in under 400 gross? What fucking loopholes are the left talking about!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Name them.

Stop sounding like a parrot.

You have been told over and over no one knows of loopholes for you. Got it?

 

[Paul98]

I've been told I'm rich by this administration and democrats. I admit I am not, but I do however have an AGI greater than 250k. I'm in the really get screwed hard arena - make enough income to be screwed, but not enough to take advantage of said loopholes.

So, what loopholes are we talking about for a dual income W2 professional family? What loopholes exist for a family bringing in under 400 gross? What fucking loopholes are the left talking about!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Name them.

How about talk to people who are here. You keep on bringing up stuff that you think we are talking about but aren't. We are talking about the rich who end up paying very little in taxes when compared to middle and upper income americans. Then you somehow think we are talking about you as the rich...

But people in this thread keep on telling you over and over that you aren't the rich which is obvious. Yet you keep on coming back with "but the democrats..." Stop talking to "the democrats" that you think you are talking to. Talk to the person who is here.

 

[the DRIZZLE]

Is there a source which adjusts these numbers to account for tax breaks and loopholes?

Yes, there is an IRS report from a few years ago that breaks down the effective tax rate by percentile. The gist of the it was the system is actually pretty progressive from 0-99 percentile. As you get into the top 1% the effective rate actually goes down because wealthy people get most of the their income in capital gains. I'm sure you can find it with some googling.

 

[spidey07]

How about talk to people who are here. You keep on bringing up stuff that you think we are talking about but aren't. We are talking about the rich who end up paying very little in taxes when compared to middle and upper income americans. Then you somehow think we are talking about you as the rich...

But people in this thread keep on telling you over and over that you aren't the rich which is obvious. Yet you keep on coming back with "but the democrats..." Stop talking to "the democrats" that you think you are talking to. Talk to the person who is here.

Yet I'm in the top 5% of income, over 250k. The left and liberals keep telling me I'm rich. Answer the fucking question - what loophole and tax breaks do a dual income W2 family have?

I'm talking to you and the president who keep calling me "the millionaires and billionaires"

You can't. Name me said loopholes. NAME THEM for a dual income W2 family of professionals!!!!!

Name them. I've shown this presidents plan's before and after the election (thank god they weren't passed, but this the mind of a liberal marxist).

So do tell me what loopholes exist for a dual income professional household affected by AMT. I'm all ears. I would like to take advantage of said loopholes and tax breaks.

Answer the fucking question, fill me in on said loopholes.