A point of view from an Israeli (myself)

[Polish3d]

BTW, I think we are all sick of radical Islam.

The US, Europe, Russia, India, Israel, even moderate Arab and Perisan elements. ****** radical Islam

 

[Specop 007]

Originally posted by: sandorski
For Decades Israel has done the same thing. How many times must this strategy be proven ineffective before someone stops? Everytime someone makes a move to stop the endless cycle, a Palestinian or Israeli performs a stupid act, then the cycle begins anew.

I'm with Red Dawn: They should both just implode so the rest of us can live without this sh1t. I'm all for actually putting a dome over the area, maybe send someone in every 50 years to see if anything is left.

I suppose you have a fancy made up explanation for the reason of the Palestinians continueing to send suicide bombers into Israel even AFTER Israel pulled out of the Gaza Strip right?

See, that little fact kidna blows your argument into little pieces. Israel has tried to meet their demans, and even when it did the Arabs still werent happy.

As I said, theres only 1 solution. Kill them all. Be it the Jews or the Arabs, but the simple fact is they cannot co-exist in the same area peacefully. One side must achieve utter and total victory over the other before the violence will stop.

 

[Buck Armstrong]

Originally posted by: Frackal

Originally posted by: lozina

Originally posted by: brandonbull
Instead of the US being in Iraq, we need to send our troops over to Lebanon and Israel and drop the hammer on both of them. We need to deliver some paybacks and help stabalize the oil prices and the economy.

Why should the Lebanese people suffer anything? What have the people done? One night they are partying in the streets enjoying life the next they are getting bombed for something they had no part of. Yet now 60 civilians are killed and the country's infrastructure is being devastated. How can anyone with a conscience support that?

Collective punishment does not work

But Hezzbollah is part of the Lebanese government, voted in by the Lebanese, and Hezzbollah committed an act of war against Israel

Everybody loves to ignore that fact, and here's why: when you're a fringe radical group, you can mount raids, terrorist attacks, etc., across borders and not necessarily implicate your government or people in your crimes. However, when you BECOME the government (Hamas, Hezbollah), your little street thug outings become official invasions by your country, starting full-scale wars. How else is Israel to respond when elements of the official Palestinian and Lebanese governments blatantly invade their territory and attack their soldiers?

That being said, I feel very badly for the Lebanese. The Palestinians brought all this on themselves (and the rest of the world) as they always do, but Lebanon was finally in full recovery after years of being an international battleground. From everything I've seen and read, a large portion of its people want peace, have had enough of being pawns, and are uncomfortable with groups like Hezbollah controlling large swaths of their territory. They want their government to control Lebanon, and freely admit that Hezbollah caused this mess but they don't have the power to eject them from the south.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: sandorski
For Decades Israel has done the same thing. How many times must this strategy be proven ineffective before someone stops? Everytime someone makes a move to stop the endless cycle, a Palestinian or Israeli performs a stupid act, then the cycle begins anew.

I'm with Red Dawn: They should both just implode so the rest of us can live without this sh1t. I'm all for actually putting a dome over the area, maybe send someone in every 50 years to see if anything is left.

I suppose you have a fancy made up explanation for the reason of the Palestinians continueing to send suicide bombers into Israel even AFTER Israel pulled out of the Gaza Strip right?

See, that little fact kidna blows your argument into little pieces. Israel has tried to meet their demans, and even when it did the Arabs still werent happy.

As I said, theres only 1 solution. Kill them all. Be it the Jews or the Arabs, but the simple fact is they cannot co-exist in the same area peacefully. One side must achieve utter and total victory over the other before the violence will stop.

Your "solution" is BS and Israel should be nuked for even trying that(if they tried).

The problem here is that 1 idiot can blow himself up or assasinate a key person and all out war breaks out every single time. The only way this will end is if Israel(yes, Israel and only Israel) chooses to not ratchet up the war everytime it gets hit. Israel has tried Eye-for-an-eye for decades, it has failed miserably. It's time for turn-the-other-cheek.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: DrCrap
In light of latest escalation in our region, and seeing many of the comments here, I'd like to take the liberty to express the way I (and many other Israelies) see this issue.

Israel has been suffering from Arab agression, and Arab terrorism for many years now. Every year Israel sustains a large number of civilian casualties due to these attacks.
Arabs claim that we have occupied their territories, and won't give them back. This fact is not complete and can be despetive.
Most, if not all the territories Israel has occupied were gained in wars initiated by Arab countries, if you start a war and lose in it, you should acknowledge the fact that you might be losing some territories, and be willing to pay that price, otherwise don't start a war... At any rate, you'll need to negotiate if you ever want to have these territories back.
Israel has withdrawn from over 90% of the territories it has occupied (yes my friends, this is a fact they forget to tell you about on the news don't they?). Israel continues its withdrawal from occupied territories, only a few months ago Israel has pulled out of the gaza strip and has PM Ehud Olmert has informed that has intentions of doing exactly the same thing in the west bank.

Had to stop right there.

Apparently, you're forgetting Israel was creating from a territory that wasn't theirs. The displacement of Palestinians from their homes is the source of unrest to this day and the continued Israeli occupation of those territories only makes matters worse.

oooo...only 10% are still occupied.

Doesn't matter.

One home occupied is one home too many.


As for Israel and terror attacks, shall we dig up the DOZENS of UN Resolutions condemning Israel for just such things?

 

[novon]

The problem here is that 1 idiot can blow himself up or assasinate a key person and all out war breaks out every single time. The only way this will end is if Israel(yes, Israel and only Israel) chooses to not ratchet up the war everytime it gets hit. Israel has tried Eye-for-an-eye for decades, it has failed miserably. It's time for turn-the-other-cheek.

:thumbsup:

 

[mrCide]

Originally posted by: Buck Armstrong

Originally posted by: Frackal

Originally posted by: lozina

Originally posted by: brandonbull
Instead of the US being in Iraq, we need to send our troops over to Lebanon and Israel and drop the hammer on both of them. We need to deliver some paybacks and help stabalize the oil prices and the economy.

Why should the Lebanese people suffer anything? What have the people done? One night they are partying in the streets enjoying life the next they are getting bombed for something they had no part of. Yet now 60 civilians are killed and the country's infrastructure is being devastated. How can anyone with a conscience support that?

Collective punishment does not work

But Hezzbollah is part of the Lebanese government, voted in by the Lebanese, and Hezzbollah committed an act of war against Israel

Everybody loves to ignore that fact, and here's why: when you're a fringe radical group, you can mount raids, terrorist attacks, etc., across borders and not necessarily implicate your government or people in your crimes. However, when you BECOME the government (Hamas, Hezbollah), your little street thug outings become official invasions by your country, starting full-scale wars. How else is Israel to respond when elements of the official Palestinian and Lebanese governments blatantly invade their territory and attack their soldiers?

That being said, I feel very badly for the Lebanese. The Palestinians brought all this on themselves (and the rest of the world) as they always do, but Lebanon was finally in full recovery after years of being an international battleground. From everything I've seen and read, a large portion of its people want peace, have had enough of being pawns, and are uncomfortable with groups like Hezbollah controlling large swaths of their territory. They want their government to control Lebanon, and freely admit that Hezbollah caused this mess but they don't have the power to eject them from the south.

someone has a clue! wow. you 'bomb them all' people disgust me and are a damn embarrassment to the human race.

 

[Future Shock]

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: J0hnny
I cannot support the fact that Israel was founded on the suppression of another people, especially when it was only 58 years ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel

You say that Arabs attack the jews constantly but the same can be said of the other. Keeping non-jews lower in economic status is another daily tactic that Israel continues to use.

I'm not partial to Arab states nor am I to Israel. If anything, I would suppport a Pan-East Asian invasion of the entire region so that WW3 could start and just annihilate the entire region.

Except the Israelis have attempted to be a peaceful "good" neighbor (insomuch as they can) by pulling out of certain areas.
And yet the attacks continue.

The Arabs in the area want one thing. Death. Hell, they dont even care whos death, they just want death.

I say give it to them Israel.

If "peaceful" means enslaving your neighbors, keeping them poor as dirt and uneducated with no access to developmental funds, while you employ them as basically slave service-sector labor...

Future Shock

 

[ericlp]

Originally posted by: Specop 007
Godspeed and good hunting Israel!

God bless all of you, and see you through to victory!

My god has a bigger dick then your god!

Yeah, like god is going to have anything to do with this? Says right there in the bible (if you haven't read it yet) thou shall not kill....

The only time you want to file missiles and bomb another is if they are doing it to you. 2 solders is not a valid excuse for this to me.

If anything you should be preying for them to solve their issues "RESPOSIBALY" not advising a war mongol like idiot bush... That is the last resort.

What this is gonna cause is more tension and retaliation (suicide bombing) attacks ... It's not a win win situation that is for sure.

Lets all grow up a bit here and solve problems with a little bit of "THINKING?"

This is just STOOOPID!

 

[shadow9d9]

Originally posted by: DrCrap
In light of latest escalation in our region, and seeing many of the comments here, I'd like to take the liberty to express the way I (and many other Israelies) see this issue.

Israel has been suffering from Arab agression, and Arab terrorism for many years now. Every year Israel sustains a large number of civilian casualties due to these attacks.
Arabs claim that we have occupied their territories, and won't give them back. This fact is not complete and can be despetive.
Most, if not all the territories Israel has occupied were gained in wars initiated by Arab countries, if you start a war and lose in it, you should acknowledge the fact that you might be losing some territories, and be willing to pay that price, otherwise don't start a war... At any rate, you'll need to negotiate if you ever want to have these territories back.
Israel has withdrawn from over 90% of the territories it has occupied (yes my friends, this is a fact they forget to tell you about on the news don't they?). Israel continues its withdrawal from occupied territories, only a few months ago Israel has pulled out of the gaza strip and has PM Ehud Olmert has informed that has intentions of doing exactly the same thing in the west bank.
Having said that, we do as Israelies acknowledge our superiority of the region and the necessity to behave as the 'adult' and be responsible, which means, that even though we can wipe out the entire palestinian population in a matter of hours (or less) whenever we 'feel' like it (e.g. after yet another terrorist attack), we still don't do it, and we revert to polite political manners, such as asking both the palestinian govt. and the international community to stop a stop to these terrorists. This sort of action yields next to nothing, at most we have a 'Hudna' (the terror its name for truce) for a couple of months, which means they won't be blowing busses and malls here till the next time they feel like it.
Off course the same goes with Arab countries sorounding us, which are all inferrior to us, thus again making us having to be the 'responsible adult' who has to sustain attacks, and other hostile activities without really replying with power, but only via political manners and the international community.
Wrapping it up...

Three weeks ago, two Israeli sold ires were killed one was kidnapped (Gilaad Shalit) and a fourth one injured (a tank crew) in yet another terrorist attack on Israeli territory (not occupied! I'm talking inside Israeli border, like if an American soldier would be kiddnaped from New York and two others killed). These soldiers were not enaged in any activity 'against' Palestinians but rather they were in a diffensive position inside Israel.
Israeli public opinion has gotten very irritated with that uncalled for hostility action, and demanded a massive blow to the Palestinian, which will have to understand that if they are going to play like that, there's going to be a certain price they will be paying. Though, we did roughed our responses from previous attacks, the massive blow the public thought the Palestinians deserved never came.
Israel's public values each and every one of its soldiers life, having a kidnapped soldier made the public here very busy with this issue, and demanding a resolution. Though as of yet nothing happened.

A couple of days ago Hizballa (or however you spell that), a Lebanon based Palestinian terrorist organization, attacked an Israeli patrol - again inside Israeli grounds, resulting in the death of 8 Israeli soldiers and another two kidnapped. The public in Israel was/is furious. I belive Americans have a saying "the sh!t has hit the fan", and that's exactly what we feel here.
We feel like "no more Mr. nice guy", its time to take off the gloves and pound some Arab a$$.
Hizzballa leader sheik Nassralla has made a terrible mistake, he thought to himself "hey, the Palestinians kidnapped Israeli soldiers, and the Israeli has made a very limited response, I'm gonna go right a head, and grab myself a couple of Israeli P.O.W's and then trade them for terrorists imprisoned in Israel, which will make me the new local hero! right?"
WRONG buddy, you should have figured that Israel was on the edge right before you've made that stupid move, you didn't give Israel just a little push over that edge you actually kicked our balls and then shuved us over it.
And now what? Now you (Arabs) are crying that we are destroying your country, destroying infrastructures, destroying economy, civilians are getting killed etc.
Though I honestly feel sorry for any innocent civilian beeing killed in our air raids, I have to say "better you than me". We must teach you a lesson, one that you will not forget too quickly, hopefully that will save future blood shade for you in the future, after you'll realize its not a fun game attacking us.

There is an ongoing debate in the Israeli public (which I'm not going to get into right now) if we should expand the blow a little and let the Syrians know that we will not toller ate their support of terrorism, but my personal feeling is that International pressure is getting to high now, and that we missed our chance to strike them this round (we shoul've done that in the fisrt day).

The bottom line is, that I as an Israeli think my country is behaving extremely responsible with its power, and what you witnessing now is a demonstration of a very little fraction of our power, which has been called for after many many hostile terrorists attacks on us.

Thank you for reading.

My family is jewish, and despite this, I do not recognize the state of Israel... Israel was created by the U.S. and Britain to give jews a new land.. unfortunately, that meant kicking out its current residents and choosing an area that has been in dispute for 1000s of years.. If you make a stupid decision, you have to live with the consequences... choosing that piece of land and just taking it by brute force... how could they NOT have known that this would happen? Now they have to deal with it.

If countries like the U.S. didn't let corporate greed keep us dependent on oil, this wouldn't even be an issue.

 

[Lemon law]

I note that it is nice to see myself quoted multiple times on this thread---but its not pleasant to see my views unreasonable attacked---I note the first attack concerned my supposition that the Palestianians are still a majority--with the logic being that if I am wrong on that---I am wrong on all else. But if you count all occupied Israelie terroritory--palistianians are still the wide majority---if you count only Israelie citizens---Palistians are still a disenfranchised minority.

But its also sad to see this thread fall into just ethnocentric limited thought---that may be true for a limited slice in time---namely this supposition that terrorism is just Islamic.
The first historical reference to terrorism come from China---and is over six thousand years old--predating any current modern religion.--and will be the tactic dejour by any totally oppressed people.

Terrorism is the natural poltics of the powerless when faced with intolerable injustice. There is no current question here about Israel being militarily dominant--and also no question that all terrirtory gained in the 1967 war---included the prize of Jersalem itself---must be given back under international law. Which does not even address that old sticking point--the right to return.

To paint the Israelie as hero's and the Palistians as totally innocent victims does not come even close to the truth---nor does reversing the roles.---the fact is that both sides are componding the question with one wrong to answer another wrong. As a another round of tit for tat violence is lauched. The problem becomes infinately worse when any voices of moderation are driven out by hardliners on both sides.---a perfect recipie for terrorism ruling the day.--as Israel now tries the futile tactic of punishing the innocent in the hopes of getting a few guilty ones.

The only way to defuse this crisis is to get a political solution---which has been tried in the past as something mutually agreed on--which has not worked--partly because the Israelies
renig on agreements when stateless terrorists act---- under the doctrine of collective guilt--which is bogus.

Maybe now its time for binding arbitration by third parties to defuse this festering crisis.--which is the same way Israel was created. Maybe then everyone will get a fairer deal.

Or we could go back in history nearly two millenia ago---when the exasperated Romans finally got tired of dealing with totally unreasonable jews---and just kicked the lot out in the first disaporia.

 

[Doboji]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
I note that it is nice to see myself quoted multiple times on this thread---but its not pleasant to see my views unreasonable attacked---I note the first attack concerned my supposition that the Palestianians are still a majority--with the logic being that if I am wrong on that---I am wrong on all else. But if you count all occupied Israelie terroritory--palistianians are still the wide majority---if you count only Israelie citizens---Palistians are still a disenfranchised minority.

But its also sad to see this thread fall into just ethnocentric limited thought---that may be true for a limited slice in time---namely this supposition that terrorism is just Islamic.
The first historical reference to terrorism come from China---and is over six thousand years old--predating any current modern religion.--and will be the tactic dejour by any totally oppressed people.

Terrorism is the natural poltics of the powerless when faced with intolerable injustice. There is no current question here about Israel being militarily dominant--and also no question that all terrirtory gained in the 1967 war---included the prize of Jersalem itself---must be given back under international law. Which does not even address that old sticking point--the right to return.

To paint the Israelie as hero's and the Palistians as totally innocent victims does not come even close to the truth---nor does reversing the roles.---the fact is that both sides are componding the question with one wrong to answer another wrong. As a another round of tit for tat violence is lauched. The problem becomes infinately worse when any voices of moderation are driven out by hardliners on both sides.---a perfect recipie for terrorism ruling the day.--as Israel now tries the futile tactic of punishing the innocent in the hopes of getting a few guilty ones.

The only way to defuse this crisis is to get a political solution---which has been tried in the past as something mutually agreed on--which has not worked--partly because the Israelies
renig on agreements when stateless terrorists act---- under the doctrine of collective guilt--which is bogus.

Maybe now its time for binding arbitration by third parties to defuse this festering crisis.--which is the same way Israel was created. Maybe then everyone will get a fairer deal.

Or we could go back in history nearly two millenia ago---when the exasperated Romans finally got tired of dealing with totally unreasonable jews---and just kicked the lot out in the first disaporia.

What?

Is it really necessary to post such a rambling post... can't you just make one point at a time..

Lets break it down.

1) Even if you counted all the palestinians in the territories... Jews would still be a slim majority.

2) noone said Islamic terrorism is the only terrorism... it's just the terrorism this conversation is about... if you'd like to start a discussion about environmental terrorism... go right ahead... in a different thread

3) What action do you propose a sovereign nation take when a bordering army invades and kills it's soldiers?

4) Who should Israel broker the political deal with? Hamas? Islamic Jihad? and more importantly how do we get the Palestinians to abide by the deal?

5) even if third parties got involved.. the same problem exists... there are terrorist organizations for whome the only acceptable solution is for Israel not to exist.. how do you deal with that?

 

[Lemon law]

To dobaji,

Lets break it down--point by point.

1. You say the jews are a slim majority---its still a question of who you count---and the Palistians are breeding faster.

2. Where do you come up with envoirmental terrorism???????---even here thats just a lunatic fringe with no popular support---in the mideast it has broad popular support both at home and in neigboring countries. Because any attempts at reason by Israelies are rejected.

3. What bordering armies???????---these are not armies--these are rag tag terrorists---what motivations does a foreign country have to brutally oppresse populist sentiments--as its own citizens---of their own free will--leaving the protections of its own home country to strike a blow in behalf of a neighboring oppressed people. Try reading up on what kind of national hero Bin Laden became when he did the same--being on our side of the Afganie conflict.---but then he was not a terrorist---he was a freedom fighter.

4. You totally misread my last post---it may be long past time for Israel to negotiate with anyone--or broker a deal with anyone--been there tried that---maybe its time for binding arbitration by a third party---and Israel can like it or lump it. But at least there may be progress.

5. No matter what agreement is reached---someone will be unhappy---but history teaches us that when a settlement is fundametally fair--the root cause of terrorism fades awy.

 

[Polish3d]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: sandorski
For Decades Israel has done the same thing. How many times must this strategy be proven ineffective before someone stops? Everytime someone makes a move to stop the endless cycle, a Palestinian or Israeli performs a stupid act, then the cycle begins anew.

I'm with Red Dawn: They should both just implode so the rest of us can live without this sh1t. I'm all for actually putting a dome over the area, maybe send someone in every 50 years to see if anything is left.

I suppose you have a fancy made up explanation for the reason of the Palestinians continueing to send suicide bombers into Israel even AFTER Israel pulled out of the Gaza Strip right?

See, that little fact kidna blows your argument into little pieces. Israel has tried to meet their demans, and even when it did the Arabs still werent happy.

As I said, theres only 1 solution. Kill them all. Be it the Jews or the Arabs, but the simple fact is they cannot co-exist in the same area peacefully. One side must achieve utter and total victory over the other before the violence will stop.

Your "solution" is BS and Israel should be nuked for even trying that(if they tried).

The problem here is that 1 idiot can blow himself up or assasinate a key person and all out war breaks out every single time. The only way this will end is if Israel(yes, Israel and only Israel) chooses to not ratchet up the war everytime it gets hit. Israel has tried Eye-for-an-eye for decades, it has failed miserably. It's time for turn-the-other-cheek.

It's been getting hit by rockets for months/years. They were firing rockets at Israel not hours after the Gaza pullout was complete. Give me a break. Turning the other cheek doesn't work either.

 

[smack Down]

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: sandorski
For Decades Israel has done the same thing. How many times must this strategy be proven ineffective before someone stops? Everytime someone makes a move to stop the endless cycle, a Palestinian or Israeli performs a stupid act, then the cycle begins anew.

I'm with Red Dawn: They should both just implode so the rest of us can live without this sh1t. I'm all for actually putting a dome over the area, maybe send someone in every 50 years to see if anything is left.

I suppose you have a fancy made up explanation for the reason of the Palestinians continueing to send suicide bombers into Israel even AFTER Israel pulled out of the Gaza Strip right?

See, that little fact kidna blows your argument into little pieces. Israel has tried to meet their demans, and even when it did the Arabs still werent happy.

As I said, theres only 1 solution. Kill them all. Be it the Jews or the Arabs, but the simple fact is they cannot co-exist in the same area peacefully. One side must achieve utter and total victory over the other before the violence will stop.

Israel didn't pull out of gaza to be nice they did it to reposition their forces. They were driven out. Why should the terrorist stop when they just had a victory.

 

[AgentJean]

Originally posted by: libs0n

Originally posted by: DrCrap

Arabs claim that we have occupied their territories, and won't give them back. This fact is not complete and can be despetive.
Most, if not all the territories Israel has occupied were gained in wars initiated by Arab countries, if you start a war and lose in it, you should acknowledge the fact that you might be losing some territories, and be willing to pay that price, otherwise don't start a war... At any rate, you'll need to negotiate if you ever want to have these territories back.

Originally posted by: AgentJean


The Arabs lost 2 wars. When you loose a war you lose land.
The Post Korea/UN style of fighting wars is retarded. You don't bomb your enemy and then pay to rebuild.

I said it in another thread and I'll say it again. Written into the Charter of the United Nations is a rule that has never been broken: Territory annexed throught the force of arms is illigitmate, and no United Nations member shall recognize it as valid. It was put there to remove one of the motivations for war, and is one of the reasons were alive here today. Israel conquered the Occupied Territories in the Six-Day war, but that does not mean it gets to keep that land and build colonies on it; your beliefs otherwise belong in the world leading up to the second world war. Or perhaps we'll find out they were responsible for the third.

Sorry, but I do not reconquize legitimacy of UN or their charters. They have no power and can't inforce their laws. Look at Iraq, Iran and North Korea. They have no military to speak of(must ask for support from member nations.) All the majoirty of member nations just like to talk and shake their index finger in shame. I'm waiting for the day a Super power really challanges the UN.


The UN is the reason their is war in the middle east.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Buck Armstrong]

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: sandorski
For Decades Israel has done the same thing. How many times must this strategy be proven ineffective before someone stops? Everytime someone makes a move to stop the endless cycle, a Palestinian or Israeli performs a stupid act, then the cycle begins anew.

I'm with Red Dawn: They should both just implode so the rest of us can live without this sh1t. I'm all for actually putting a dome over the area, maybe send someone in every 50 years to see if anything is left.

I suppose you have a fancy made up explanation for the reason of the Palestinians continueing to send suicide bombers into Israel even AFTER Israel pulled out of the Gaza Strip right?

See, that little fact kidna blows your argument into little pieces. Israel has tried to meet their demans, and even when it did the Arabs still werent happy.

As I said, theres only 1 solution. Kill them all. Be it the Jews or the Arabs, but the simple fact is they cannot co-exist in the same area peacefully. One side must achieve utter and total victory over the other before the violence will stop.

Israel didn't pull out of gaza to be nice they did it to reposition their forces. They were driven out. Why should the terrorist stop when they just had a victory.

That might just be the dumbest statement I've heard all day. Israel was not "driven out" of Gaza, their withdrawal was part of the "road map", and in fact, even better since it was a unilateral move by Israel that should've gotten the ball rolling again. Instead, it proved once again that the Palestinians are not interested in peace, and that even if Israel moves first and voluntarily gives them part of their demands, they still will not compromise or even listen. They just reoccupied the rubble of Gaza and jumped right back in the sh*t storm.

Where the hell have you been?

 

[Aimster]

Palestinians have guns /end list. They have no roadside bombs. They have no good RPGs.

They are powerless against Israeli forces. When Israel enters Palestine they are in armored vehicles. Palestinians fire at the vehicles and the vehicles get dents ...

Hezbollah on the other hand has weapons that can take out tanks.

 

[libs0n]

Originally posted by: AgentJean

Originally posted by: libs0n

Originally posted by: DrCrap

Arabs claim that we have occupied their territories, and won't give them back. This fact is not complete and can be despetive.
Most, if not all the territories Israel has occupied were gained in wars initiated by Arab countries, if you start a war and lose in it, you should acknowledge the fact that you might be losing some territories, and be willing to pay that price, otherwise don't start a war... At any rate, you'll need to negotiate if you ever want to have these territories back.

Originally posted by: AgentJean


The Arabs lost 2 wars. When you loose a war you lose land.
The Post Korea/UN style of fighting wars is retarded. You don't bomb your enemy and then pay to rebuild.

I said it in another thread and I'll say it again. Written into the Charter of the United Nations is a rule that has never been broken: Territory annexed throught the force of arms is illigitmate, and no United Nations member shall recognize it as valid. It was put there to remove one of the motivations for war, and is one of the reasons were alive here today. Israel conquered the Occupied Territories in the Six-Day war, but that does not mean it gets to keep that land and build colonies on it; your beliefs otherwise belong in the world leading up to the second world war. Or perhaps we'll find out they were responsible for the third.

Sorry, but I do not reconquize legitimacy of UN or their charters. They have no power and can't inforce their laws. Look at Iraq, Iran and North Korea. They have no military to speak of(must ask for support from member nations.) All the majoirty of member nations just like to talk and shake their index finger in shame. I'm waiting for the day a Super power really challanges the UN.


The UN is the reason their is war in the middle east.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The points you raise are irrelevant, for it is not the UN's legitimacy that makes what I said the rule of law, but rather the collective authority of the members of the UN, including that of whatever country you are from. Every single nation on Earth will not recognize Israeli designs on that land, for it violates a central tenet that they have all agreed to abide by for the greater good of mankind.

 

[JinLien]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: DrCrap
In light of latest escalation in our region, and seeing many of the comments here, I'd like to take the liberty to express the way I (and many other Israelies) see this issue.

Israel has been suffering from Arab agression, and Arab terrorism for many years now. Every year Israel sustains a large number of civilian casualties due to these attacks.
Arabs claim that we have occupied their territories, and won't give them back. This fact is not complete and can be despetive.
Most, if not all the territories Israel has occupied were gained in wars initiated by Arab countries, if you start a war and lose in it, you should acknowledge the fact that you might be losing some territories, and be willing to pay that price, otherwise don't start a war... At any rate, you'll need to negotiate if you ever want to have these territories back.
Israel has withdrawn from over 90% of the territories it has occupied (yes my friends, this is a fact they forget to tell you about on the news don't they?). Israel continues its withdrawal from occupied territories, only a few months ago Israel has pulled out of the gaza strip and has PM Ehud Olmert has informed that has intentions of doing exactly the same thing in the west bank.
Having said that, we do as Israelies acknowledge our superiority of the region and the necessity to behave as the 'adult' and be responsible, which means, that even though we can wipe out the entire palestinian population in a matter of hours (or less) whenever we 'feel' like it (e.g. after yet another terrorist attack), we still don't do it, and we revert to polite political manners, such as asking both the palestinian govt. and the international community to stop a stop to these terrorists. This sort of action yields next to nothing, at most we have a 'Hudna' (the terror its name for truce) for a couple of months, which means they won't be blowing busses and malls here till the next time they feel like it.
Off course the same goes with Arab countries sorounding us, which are all inferrior to us, thus again making us having to be the 'responsible adult' who has to sustain attacks, and other hostile activities without really replying with power, but only via political manners and the international community.
Wrapping it up...

Three weeks ago, two Israeli sold ires were killed one was kidnapped (Gilaad Shalit) and a fourth one injured (a tank crew) in yet another terrorist attack on Israeli territory (not occupied! I'm talking inside Israeli border, like if an American soldier would be kiddnaped from New York and two others killed). These soldiers were not enaged in any activity 'against' Palestinians but rather they were in a diffensive position inside Israel.
Israeli public opinion has gotten very irritated with that uncalled for hostility action, and demanded a massive blow to the Palestinian, which will have to understand that if they are going to play like that, there's going to be a certain price they will be paying. Though, we did roughed our responses from previous attacks, the massive blow the public thought the Palestinians deserved never came.
Israel's public values each and every one of its soldiers life, having a kidnapped soldier made the public here very busy with this issue, and demanding a resolution. Though as of yet nothing happened.

A couple of days ago Hizballa (or however you spell that), a Lebanon based Palestinian terrorist organization, attacked an Israeli patrol - again inside Israeli grounds, resulting in the death of 8 Israeli soldiers and another two kidnapped. The public in Israel was/is furious. I belive Americans have a saying "the sh!t has hit the fan", and that's exactly what we feel here.
We feel like "no more Mr. nice guy", its time to take off the gloves and pound some Arab a$$.
Hizzballa leader sheik Nassralla has made a terrible mistake, he thought to himself "hey, the Palestinians kidnapped Israeli soldiers, and the Israeli has made a very limited response, I'm gonna go right a head, and grab myself a couple of Israeli P.O.W's and then trade them for terrorists imprisoned in Israel, which will make me the new local hero! right?"
WRONG buddy, you should have figured that Israel was on the edge right before you've made that stupid move, you didn't give Israel just a little push over that edge you actually kicked our balls and then shuved us over it.
And now what? Now you (Arabs) are crying that we are destroying your country, destroying infrastructures, destroying economy, civilians are getting killed etc.
Though I honestly feel sorry for any innocent civilian beeing killed in our air raids, I have to say "better you than me". We must teach you a lesson, one that you will not forget too quickly, hopefully that will save future blood shade for you in the future, after you'll realize its not a fun game attacking us.

There is an ongoing debate in the Israeli public (which I'm not going to get into right now) if we should expand the blow a little and let the Syrians know that we will not toller ate their support of terrorism, but my personal feeling is that International pressure is getting to high now, and that we missed our chance to strike them this round (we shoul've done that in the fisrt day).

The bottom line is, that I as an Israeli think my country is behaving extremely responsible with its power, and what you witnessing now is a demonstration of a very little fraction of our power, which has been called for after many many hostile terrorists attacks on us.

Thank you for reading.

Hey do us a favor, implode and take your neighbors with you. The world would be much better off!

I second the motion.

Maybe it is time for the US to stop feeding the Israeli so they have to learn to be a bit more humble and trade with their neighbors fairly.

 

[Screech]

A few points for people who really have no f*cking idea what they are talking about:

1) You want to point to the legitimacy of the UN as points to attack Israeli land policies? That's fine, but you should also recognize that it was the UN who created Israel in Palestine. Does this legitimacy suddenly not count all of a sudden?

2)Israel got attacked with rockets immediately after the pullout from Gaza, giving Palestinians the right to elect a government.....that should tell you a lot, right off the bat, so to speak. All the "But they stole our land and aren't giving it back, which is why Israel is getting attacked!" stuff essentially falls flat on its face in front of that tasty little tidbit of information.

3) Israel has no rights to land it won in a war? So, perhaps they simply shouldn't fight at all--after all, once they are pushed into the sea, I'm sure the fair, open-minded, not-controlled-at-all-by-anyone-with-an-agenda UN would step in and restore Israel to its former lands, right? If Israel neighbor's were so intent on international law being followed, one would think that perhaps they wouldn't start wars with Israel! Impressive concept, indeed.

On a side note, I feel sorry for the innocent civilians on both sides.....unfortunately, in war, sh1t happens, and I will side with the ones who wish to kill those who purposely try to kill innocent civilians, rather than those who purposely kill innocent civilians. A few years ago, I would side with those who would say something along the lines of "f*ck them all, they are all idiots who can't make peace." After seeing the not-so-peaceful results of the Gaza pullout, though, I'm afraid I must side with Israel.

 

[StageLeft]

Maybe it is time for the US to stop feeding the Israeli so they have to learn to be a bit more humble and trade with their neighbors fairly.

That's a fantastical statement. Muslims, by their very nature, are not going to be able to trade fairly with anybody but other Muslims. It's dictated as such in the Koran; in fact, tolerance by Muslims of non-Muslims is quite un-Islamic (and many are tolerant and functional in society with non-muslims, but they are not adhering properly to the Koran when they do this). The Muslims in the middle east utterly despise Jews, not just because they are on "Muslim land", but they because they are not Muslims. Imagine if Canada and the US had to trade together but it was ingrained into the psyche of many Canadians that Americans were evil, plain and simple. How fair can one expect treatment from somebody who considers them evil?

Iran has called for the annialation of Israel. Such a desire is not unpopular in the Muslim world. Common disputes among nations like england and france or other mostly-civil countries are not at all applicable to how things happen in the middle east. Israel literally stands as a beacon of what is hated by all of its neighbors. It is surrounded by countries who would like to see it fall and a mere three decades ago all tried to make that happen at the same time. The reason they want to is similar to the reason they can't make it happen; Islam posions society in modern times and lowers its effectiveness. This is why, even with ungodly amounts of oil money coming into some of these places, they are still countries rife with illiteracy, poverty, scant human rights, and general honest-to-goodness oppression.

Maybe Israel has acted disproportionately. The argument is easy to make, but ultimately, they do want people to piss off and let them carry on. It sees the palestinians it lives next to recently elect a goverment that has been officially identified by the world as a terrorist organization. It lobs rockets into israel all the time. I know American pride and I know that if a neighbor of the US did even a tiny bit of what Israel's neighbors do to it, there would be mass calls to flatten the instigators. In war, the strong person wins, regardless of morality. Israel is far stronger than its neighbors and mostly shows restraint, year after year.

The only way to get long-term peace in that area will be to have either Israel removed, or its neighbors removed, or its neighbors become religiously progressive and stop worshipping the Koran with such fervour, because Islam and Israel are inherently incompatible and will never, ever co-exist peacefully.

 

[smack Down]

Originally posted by: Buck Armstrong

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: sandorski
For Decades Israel has done the same thing. How many times must this strategy be proven ineffective before someone stops? Everytime someone makes a move to stop the endless cycle, a Palestinian or Israeli performs a stupid act, then the cycle begins anew.

I'm with Red Dawn: They should both just implode so the rest of us can live without this sh1t. I'm all for actually putting a dome over the area, maybe send someone in every 50 years to see if anything is left.

I suppose you have a fancy made up explanation for the reason of the Palestinians continueing to send suicide bombers into Israel even AFTER Israel pulled out of the Gaza Strip right?

See, that little fact kidna blows your argument into little pieces. Israel has tried to meet their demans, and even when it did the Arabs still werent happy.

As I said, theres only 1 solution. Kill them all. Be it the Jews or the Arabs, but the simple fact is they cannot co-exist in the same area peacefully. One side must achieve utter and total victory over the other before the violence will stop.

Israel didn't pull out of gaza to be nice they did it to reposition their forces. They were driven out. Why should the terrorist stop when they just had a victory.

That might just be the dumbest statement I've heard all day. Israel was not "driven out" of Gaza, their withdrawal was part of the "road map", and in fact, even better since it was a unilateral move by Israel that should've gotten the ball rolling again. Instead, it proved once again that the Palestinians are not interested in peace, and that even if Israel moves first and voluntarily gives them part of their demands, they still will not compromise or even listen. They just reoccupied the rubble of Gaza and jumped right back in the sh*t storm.

Where the hell have you been?

Pulling out of gaza is on the road map to peace but israel didn't decided to pull out because of the road map. The pulll out was because they were over extended and wanted to focus the settlements in other areas.

 

[Lemon law]

I really love it when people say the Palistinians people---like they were a single indivual. The problem is that they are not united, have no state or real government, and even if most desire peace and do not
engage in terrorist practices---its the sad fact the moderates on both sides--in Israel and in Palistianian
side are totally driven out of politics--leaving the terrorists and the Israelie hard liners duking it out.

Worse yet---any fuctioning Palistianian government that could arrest the terrorists or keep them in check is totally destroyed by periodic Israelie re-occupations.---stop one is the court houses where are land holding records are confiscated.

Israel has done much to earn Palistian hatred.--and the same thing can be said of Palistinian terrorism---neither side has cclean hands and the litinany of past wrongs is so long its hopeless to sort out.

In may be a fanciful idea to just put a dome over the area---or let one side exterminate the other. But it won't happen so no sense discussing the idea.

What may be needed is binding arbitration by a third party---and both sides can like it or lump it.

 

[lozina]

Originally posted by: Frackal

Originally posted by: lozina

Originally posted by: brandonbull
Instead of the US being in Iraq, we need to send our troops over to Lebanon and Israel and drop the hammer on both of them. We need to deliver some paybacks and help stabalize the oil prices and the economy.

Why should the Lebanese people suffer anything? What have the people done? One night they are partying in the streets enjoying life the next they are getting bombed for something they had no part of. Yet now 60 civilians are killed and the country's infrastructure is being devastated. How can anyone with a conscience support that?

Collective punishment does not work

But Hezzbollah is part of the Lebanese government, voted in by the Lebanese, and Hezzbollah committed an act of war against Israel

OMG these are the half truths and deception being put forth that make me angry.

Hezbollah is a political party yes, but it holds 14 seats in a 128 seat parliament! You think that is any significant influence on the government? LOL!!!

Then I watch the news and I see headlines like "Lebanese rockets strike Israeli towns". Those are NOT "Lebanese" rockets, those are rockets fired by Hezbollah guerillas! They try to make it seem like the Lebanese government is a part of this attack on Israel. Plus now they are pelting us with these statements from the Hezbollah leader who calls for "open war" like he has any say in Lebanese politics! Pure deception.

You want the official word from the Lebanese government? They're begging for the barbaric Israeli army to stop destroying their country for something a group of thugs in the south did! It's like Israel has been praying for a situation like this to come up so they have an excuse to devastate the country's economy