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A look at crime worldwide ~ Canadians views on their self described inferiority complex

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rahvin

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,475
1
0
Originally posted by: Phuz
Originally posted by: Lucky
The whole premise of this thread is flawed....


Not unless you are able to say with certainly what crimes are encompassed under the heading "violent crimes" in both countries.
Give me a break. tcsenter seems to think he has a good explanation for everything.
You can't always baffle someone with bullshit.
Its funny you people can even PRETEND Canada is more violent than America.

I've lived in the biggest two cities in Canada, which are in the top 3 for the biggest in CANADA.
I'd feel safter in any of them than the safest city in the US.
And your basis for comparison is you have lived in what US cities? Or is your opinion completely derived from Television and the media?

Going by the media the US had the largest outbreak of shark attacks the world has ever seen. Of course the actual number of attacks was no higher than average. Don't base your opinion on the media. I have been in quite a few of the major cities in the US and the only time I wouldn't have felt comfortable walking around in the middle of the night is when I was in the slum areas. In fact living in one of the safer areas of the US I can say I don't even know anyone who has ever had a violent crime commited against them.

It appears from you post you have deluded yourself with your superior attitude. Keep thinking Canada is better, the reality is neither country is better but you couldn't accept that could you?
 

Tal

Golden Member
Jun 29, 2001
1,832
0
0
Originally posted by: Phuz
Originally posted by: Lucky
The whole premise of this thread is flawed....


Not unless you are able to say with certainly what crimes are encompassed under the heading "violent crimes" in both countries.
Give me a break. tcsenter seems to think he has a good explanation for everything.
You can't always baffle someone with bullshit.
Its funny you people can even PRETEND Canada is more violent than America.

I've lived in the biggest two cities in Canada, which are in the top 3 for the biggest in CANADA.
I'd feel safter in any of them than the safest city in the US.
Whoopty do for you. My family and I made ONE trip to "Friendly Manitoba" Our minivan was broken into and some stuff was stolen. Welcome to Friendly Manitoba where we rbo your A$$. Whoo Hoo. Won't catch me back in that crap hole.
 

Phuz

Diamond Member
Jul 15, 2000
4,349
0
0
Rahvin, thanks. That was hilarious.
You don't see many of my post in Politics and News, do you?
 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
11,983
0
0
Originally posted by: tcsenter
Look at the link I posted above, the violent crime rate in the U.S. is more than twice that of the Canada.

According to the statistics the violent crime rate in the U.S. is 24.7 per 1,000 people, or 2470 per 100,000 people, a lot more than the ~1000 per 100,000 in Canada. This is 2001 data from the Department of Justice, I'm not sure if agree with the collection method, but all the data is there.

The whole premise of this thread is flawed....
Actually, when you know what the hell you're doing, its not.

The Bureau of Justice National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS), to which you have linked, attempts to estimate both reported and unreported violent crimes, by interviewing approximately 80,000 Americans age 12 and older in 43,000 households twice each year about their victimizations from crime.

The Canadian Uniform Crime Reports (UCR) to which you've offered NCVS figures in comparison includes only crimes reported to the police through Canada's national incident based reporting system. As you may know, or maybe not, among the five categories of violent index crimes, it is estimated that approx. 50% go unreported to police.

So while the BJS NCVS figures are thought to be on the more liberal end of the estimated number of actual offenses committed, reported and unreported, the Canadian UCR series represents only those crimes reported to police, or roughly half of all violent crimes estimated to occur in Canada by the [rough] 50% rule of thumb.

In fact, the incident-based Canadian UCR is the Canadian equivalent of the incident-based FBI UCR. They are designed to be substantially comparable, unlike the Canadian UCR and BJS NCVS, which are really two entirely different statistical tools.

According to the more comparable FBI Uniform Crime Reports, in 2001 the total US violent crime rate was 504.4 violent crimes per 100,000. According to Canada's Uniform Crime Reports, in 2001 the total Canadian violent crime rate 994.5 crimes per 100,000, nearly twice the US rate.

This does underscore why one shouldn't leap to speak on matters about which they aren't informed enough to prevent themselves from stepping in it. There is more to statistics than gleening numbers from the internet.


I understand the nmurder rate is 3 times higher here, I pointed out that difference early on in this thread. This is a comparision of all violent crime, brought about by a members comments that Americans were so much more violent that Canadians.

The statistics I used were the only offical and reliable ones in canada, the agency was created roughly 30 years ago for the very reason there was no reliable figures. The FBI uniform crime reports are generally considered credible as well.

The numbers speak for themselves.

As far as the inferiority complex. I do not have one, about my self our my country.
Canada however apparently does, every link provided about that area is Canadians speaking about this issue themselves, their media stars and political leaders apparently disagree, a quick search on google will find many more for you. The reality of this complex is well discussed and published, just take a look.
 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
11,983
0
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In summary terms, Canadians who are strongly anti-American appear to be a) fearful about the influence of the U.S. on Canada, b) insecure as to their own identity ?­ they need reassurance from a variety government-created symbols (such as the CBC), and c) these Canadians are more than a little envious of our rich, powerful, southern neighbour. Contemplation of the American elephant ? sadly ? brings out the dark side of the character of the Canadian mouse ? envy. It is a sort of national penis (genital?) envy wrapped in a blanket of moral superiority that is the natural refuge of the woefully insecure and the truly weak. There are lots of good reasons to criticize various policies of the U.S. government, but surely reflexive anti-Americanism is unworthy of what Canadians want to be.

W.T. Stanbury is professor emeritus at the University of British Columbia.


In other words if you don't agree with any of the Canadians views and voices I used to verify their complex, take it up with them, not me. The only perspective I have on that is from what I see from our Canadian members here, which, honestly, totally supports this, right down to the irrational behavour and lack of common deceny towards Americans.
 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
11,983
0
0
Originally posted by: Hayabusarider
Originally posted by: Alistar7
Originally posted by: B00ne
Yeah Alistar, You, the US and all its citizen are the greatest of the great. Your enlightenment even lights our dark corner of the world. Heil USA - Heil mein Führer




Happy now
yes, are you?

But you are right, we are the greatest, maybe we should have sold our souls for a few bucks like the Germans, and tossed in some new conventional weapons as they also did.

don't start with the "Heil" crap again, we had enough of the "greatness" of the German people already......


Tell me how great America was to my native american ancestors. Please justify what they did. I dont care about Canada. You are bragging on the US, by belittling everyone else. Justify successful genocide. Casinos? Dont even go there. Americans took what was their world, and tossed them a bone. All of that is done, and I rarely think on it except when I see those who build their country up by tearing others down. Our history hardly allows us to toss too many stones.

I am also part Indian, at least a little. How far back do you want to go? Start with the Spanish and go from there? We can go back to the beginning of man and show we only committed genocide against ourselves. Shall we go back as far as we can to assign blame? Then we can blame the Kurds being gassed in Iraq on the Brits, for failing to deliver a state for them as promised after ww1. What about Russian and British actions in Iran after ww1? History must become that at some point, it eventually has no factor. We also held slaves, does that negate the fact we almost destroyed our country to do the right thing long before many other "civilized" nations?

I am not bragging on America, just looking for the reason why soem Canadians have this major attitude, now I know why. Plus the assumption over violence stoked my curiousity, nothing better than proving some asshat wrong....
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,880
4,212
126
We could go back to Cain and Abel. Thing is they weren't Americans. What the Germans did was wrong. What the Spaniards did was too. We had the concept of Manifest Destiny though. We applied it too in a hideous way. Frankly, there is no justification for it. Does that leave me with some unbearable angst? No. I am suggesting that before people run down other countries, it would be best to remember our closet is full of skeletons. People are people where ever they are. If you want to brag on your country, go for it, but if you have something to brag about it stands on its own merits. Otherwise bashing others serves what purpose? Granted, creating inflammatory thread titles draws responses. I suppose this is a form of entertainment.
 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
11,983
0
0
well I am using crime figures from the last few years, and the concept of this inferiority complex is being discussed by current political leaders in some of those links.

What prompted the research into the complex was the assumptions and comments of some of our Canuck members. It obviously exists, and explains much of their irrational and personal attacks. Not only do I have a better understanding of them, I actually will always carry a lity pity for them as well.
 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
81
People, please listen to tcsenter. He has a firm grasp of how the NCVS and UCRs work. Trying to compare the two to each other do not work. You have to compare NCVS to NCVS, and UCRs to UCRs. NCVS is a much more "real" idea of crime, than the UCRs are. The actual "true crime rate" aka "dark figure of crime" is unknown, but many say it is +20% over the NCVS's reported rates.
 

Phuz

Diamond Member
Jul 15, 2000
4,349
0
0
NCVS is a much more "real" idea of crime, than the UCRs are.
No, the real way to get an 'idea' for crime is to live and breath the city/country in question.

I'm not saying America is the most violent country in the world, but it sure as hell is a lot worse than Canada.
The comparrison is a joke.

Text
 

mugs

Lifer
Apr 29, 2003
48,905
10
81
Clearly the reason is that there is less to do in Canada, so therefore they play more violent video games and listen to Eminem.
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,868
82
91
Originally posted by: Alistar7
Originally posted by: Hayabusarider
Originally posted by: Alistar7
Originally posted by: B00ne
Yeah Alistar, You, the US and all its citizen are the greatest of the great. Your enlightenment even lights our dark corner of the world. Heil USA - Heil mein Führer




Happy now
yes, are you?

But you are right, we are the greatest, maybe we should have sold our souls for a few bucks like the Germans, and tossed in some new conventional weapons as they also did.

don't start with the "Heil" crap again, we had enough of the "greatness" of the German people already......


Tell me how great America was to my native american ancestors. Please justify what they did. I dont care about Canada. You are bragging on the US, by belittling everyone else. Justify successful genocide. Casinos? Dont even go there. Americans took what was their world, and tossed them a bone. All of that is done, and I rarely think on it except when I see those who build their country up by tearing others down. Our history hardly allows us to toss too many stones.

I am also part Indian, at least a little. How far back do you want to go? Start with the Spanish and go from there? We can go back to the beginning of man and show we only committed genocide against ourselves. Shall we go back as far as we can to assign blame? Then we can blame the Kurds being gassed in Iraq on the Brits, for failing to deliver a state for them as promised after ww1. What about Russian and British actions in Iran after ww1? History must become that at some point, it eventually has no factor. We also held slaves, does that negate the fact we almost destroyed our country to do the right thing long before many other "civilized" nations?

I am not bragging on America, just looking for the reason why soem Canadians have this major attitude, now I know why. Plus the assumption over violence stoked my curiousity, nothing better than proving some asshat wrong....
or you can look on the bright side. the whitey came and killed indians whereas before only indians killed indians in tribal warfare:)
 

skylark

Senior member
Feb 24, 2001
798
0
0
alistar7: I'd say your murder rate is the highest in the world, non-lethal violent and crimes (rape, hate, assault, battery, etc..) are much higher than Canada based on gun laws, drugs trafficking, wealth distribution, pop density and deviancy. It'll take 3-4 major canadian cities to match NYC's pop and crime rate. New Orleans has a warehouse of unsolved murder cases that'll take Canada at least 100 years to match. And I'm being generous here.

In the East, the only hot spots for crime is Ontario and Quebec province. In the West, Vancouver city only. In Alberta, Edmonton city only. Even these places don't show up on radar in the national, local, or regional news. We rarely see investigations from lethal or deviant crimes on a daily basis, except a few big non-violent drug busts in Ontario or BC every couple of years.

Canada is the easter bunny compared to the US in violent crimes.

tscenter: real idea? The stats are out to lunch. Do you live here? nO. I have all my life. I know how it is here. Your country has more famous, well-documented criminals than any other country. Every time I turn on TV, there's a darn show on death, murder, guns, bombs, and rape. Notice most of the movies now always have gun fight scenes. Where did that come from? Violence and Death are good business for US corporate media giants if you haven't noticed.


the stats are inaccurate. Canada is more violent on a per ratio basis compared with the US is out to lunch. For the inferiority complex issue, I have no idea where it originated, nor would I agree with our current 'people' armchair assessment. All I know, canadians are more laid-back and mellower than the US counterparts. Hence, we're not so patriotic with our identity - unless it was about hockey and beer. :D

 

B00ne

Platinum Member
May 21, 2001
2,168
1
0
Originally posted by: tcsenter
Look at the link I posted above, the violent crime rate in the U.S. is more than twice that of the Canada.

According to the statistics the violent crime rate in the U.S. is 24.7 per 1,000 people, or 2470 per 100,000 people, a lot more than the ~1000 per 100,000 in Canada. This is 2001 data from the Department of Justice, I'm not sure if agree with the collection method, but all the data is there.

The whole premise of this thread is flawed....
Actually, when you know what the hell you're doing, its not.

The Bureau of Justice National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS), to which you have linked, attempts to estimate both reported and unreported violent crimes, by interviewing approximately 80,000 Americans age 12 and older in 43,000 households twice each year about their victimizations from crime.

The Canadian Uniform Crime Reports (UCR) to which you've offered NCVS figures in comparison includes only crimes reported to the police through Canada's national incident based reporting system. As you may know, or maybe not, among the five categories of violent index crimes, it is estimated that approx. 50% go unreported to police.

So while the BJS NCVS figures are thought to be on the more liberal end of the estimated number of actual offenses committed, reported and unreported, the Canadian UCR series represents only those crimes reported to police, or roughly half of all violent crimes estimated to occur in Canada by the [rough] 50% rule of thumb.

In fact, the incident-based Canadian UCR is the Canadian equivalent of the incident-based FBI UCR. They are designed to be substantially comparable, unlike the Canadian UCR and BJS NCVS, which are really two entirely different statistical tools.

According to the more comparable FBI Uniform Crime Reports, in 2001 the total US violent crime rate was 504.4 violent crimes per 100,000. According to Canada's Uniform Crime Reports, in 2001 the total Canadian violent crime rate 994.5 crimes per 100,000, nearly twice the US rate.

This does underscore why one shouldn't leap to speak on matters about which they aren't informed enough to prevent themselves from stepping in it. There is more to statistics than gleening numbers from the internet.
Tcsenter: Even those comparable statistics are not comparable. How do you know what Canadians report and what Americans report? Fact is the Murder rate is higher in the US (several times) than in most western countries. I think that´is why America is viewed a a violent country. Murderrates are the only statistics that can be compared, since murders are always reported.

But I still would say the US is more violent (than Germany, cannot say anything about Canada since I havent been there). For instance in my time there, I saw quite alot of fights (bars, school...) and even here in the forum when somebody tells a story about going out (usually involving the girlfriend) and then ppl recommend that the person in question should kick someones ass.... (I hope u know what I mean). And that is something that I would call violent too, and I think we dont have that here (to that extent) - or maybe I just dont know enough lowlife to gauge the willingness of ppl to engage in fights.

One thing is for sure, the type of violence that has been seen in the US only before is rising fast here especially among pubescent kids predominantly on schools with high foreigner percentage. It is so bad, that in some schools there are no germans (parents take their kids away from schools with many foreigners) anymore and teachers can hardly teach because the kids there dont know german



 

Phuz

Diamond Member
Jul 15, 2000
4,349
0
0
Originally posted by: skylark
alistar7: I'd say your murder rate is the highest in the world, non-lethal violent and crimes (rape, hate, assault, battery, etc..) are much higher than Canada based on gun laws, drugs trafficking, wealth distribution, pop density and deviancy. It'll take 3-4 major canadian cities to match NYC's pop and crime rate. New Orleans has a warehouse of unsolved murder cases that'll take Canada at least 100 years to match. And I'm being generous here.

In the East, the only hot spots for crime is Ontario and Quebec province. In the West, Vancouver city only. In Alberta, Edmonton city only. Even these places don't show up on radar in the national, local, or regional news. We rarely see investigations from lethal or deviant crimes on a daily basis, except a few big non-violent drug busts in Ontario or BC every couple of years.

Canada is the easter bunny compared to the US in violent crimes.

tscenter: real idea? The stats are out to lunch. Do you live here? nO. I have all my life. I know how it is here. Your country has more famous, well-documented criminals than any other country. Every time I turn on TV, there's a darn show on death, murder, guns, bombs, and rape. Notice most of the movies now always have gun fight scenes. Where did that come from? Violence and Death are good business for US corporate media giants if you haven't noticed.


the stats are inaccurate. Canada is more violent on a per ratio basis compared with the US is out to lunch. For the inferiority complex issue, I have no idea where it originated, nor would I agree with our current 'people' armchair assessment. All I know, canadians are more laid-back and mellower than the US counterparts. Hence, we're not so patriotic with our identity - unless it was about hockey and beer. :D
Thank you.
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
17,848
24
81
Canada is the easter bunny compared to the US in violent crimes.
Well at least that's what you've been told over and over.
tscenter: real idea? The stats are out to lunch. Do you live here? nO. I have all my life. I know how it is here. Your country has more famous, well-documented criminals than any other country. Every time I turn on TV, there's a darn show on death, murder, guns, bombs, and rape. Notice most of the movies now always have gun fight scenes. Where did that come from? Violence and Death are good business for US corporate media giants if you haven't noticed.
Ah ha! Well I think we have a winner here.

I saw it on TV! The statistics by Canada and the United States' own crime statistical reporting and tracking governmental agencies are wrong and the TV is right! Its gotta be true because the media sensationalizes school shootings in the US.

What you're describing is the 'air disaster' vs. 'highway deaths' media phenomena. I've yet to meet a person who was scared of riding in an automobile, but I've met plenty afraid to fly or refuse to fly because they "feel" safer in an automobile. Perceptions can be tricky. Yours are at odds with the facts. Don't feel bad, you're not alone.

The FBI/BJS Uniform Crime Reports uses an almost identical incident-based national reporting system as the Canadian Center For Justice Statistics Uniform Crime Reports. These numbers come from surveys of police agencies who participate in the incident-based reporting system.

Of course the Canadian government loves to focus virtually any comparison of violent crime between the US and Canada on firearm-related crime and homicide almost exclusively. So does the Canadian media. Hell the US media has a penchant for anything firearm related. There could be five rapes in one night and the media will almost certainly report the one shooting which occurred the same night, saying nothing about the rapes. Of course, all governments want to cast their crime statistics in the best light.

While there are differences in how the US and Canada 'group' types of violent crimes into 'categories', there are not substantial differences. No matter how they're grouped, all the major violent index crimes are there; murder, attempted murder, manslaughter, aggravated assault, assault and battery, sexual assault, and robbery.

The US and Canadian UCR are not 'directly' comparable, no two countries are because no two countries have identical counting rules, definitions, classifications, or law enforcement resources. But the two are substantially comparable and differences cannot account for huge disparities. If you're talking a spread of 10%, you could reasonably complain about the differences in statistical methods. If you're talking about a spread of 100%, then no.

Instead of offering your 'As Seen On TV' expertise, why don't you offer detailed analysis of how 'the stats are inaccurate? I'm willing to consider your analysis, but you realize that 'I watch a lot of TV' isn't cutting anyone's mustard, right?

If you think the US has a lot of crime, check out England and Wales.
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,414
0
0
Originally posted by: skylark
alistar7: I'd say your murder rate is the highest in the world, non-lethal violent and crimes (rape, hate, assault, battery, etc..) are much higher than Canada based on gun laws, drugs trafficking, wealth distribution, pop density and deviancy. It'll take 3-4 major canadian cities to match NYC's pop and crime rate. New Orleans has a warehouse of unsolved murder cases that'll take Canada at least 100 years to match. And I'm being generous here.

In the East, the only hot spots for crime is Ontario and Quebec province. In the West, Vancouver city only. In Alberta, Edmonton city only. Even these places don't show up on radar in the national, local, or regional news. We rarely see investigations from lethal or deviant crimes on a daily basis, except a few big non-violent drug busts in Ontario or BC every couple of years.

Canada is the easter bunny compared to the US in violent crimes.

tscenter: real idea? The stats are out to lunch. Do you live here? nO. I have all my life. I know how it is here. Your country has more famous, well-documented criminals than any other country. Every time I turn on TV, there's a darn show on death, murder, guns, bombs, and rape. Notice most of the movies now always have gun fight scenes. Where did that come from? Violence and Death are good business for US corporate media giants if you haven't noticed.
I highly doubt that the US murder rate is higher than some African country in total anarchy.

What's kind of funny is that you say you've lived in Canada your whole life so you now how it is there, yet you pretend to know how it is in the US. And you base your beliefs on TV programs :)
 

B00ne

Platinum Member
May 21, 2001
2,168
1
0
That is true, as far as I know, South Africa has the highest murder rate in the world - the world that has statistics that is... I bet such things are worse in countries in complete turmoil (Kongo anyone)
 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
11,983
0
0
"The FBI/BJS Uniform Crime Reports uses an almost identical incident-based national reporting system as the Canadian Center For Justice Statistics Uniform Crime Reports. These numbers come from surveys of police agencies who participate in the incident-based reporting system."

I love how people can just ignore the facts, it's like Iraq all over again.

If you have a problem with the Canadian numbers, take it up with them, they provided them and I used the only credible source they have, the one created for that very reason, 30 yrs ago they had none. Maybe the rest of you should put in the hours of research into this that I have before you criticize.

The fact remains, Canadaians commit twice as many violent acts as Americans per 100,000 residents. You can break it down and show we kill more, they rape more, you can break it down by location, population desnity, etc... does not change the final number.


 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
11,983
0
0
non violent drub busts? You do realize they just caught some people trying to take a truckload of explosives into Vancouver for the gangs fighting for control ofthe drug trade?

explosives are so not violent though right? Is it exploding beer and syrup?
 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
81
Originally posted by: Phuz
NCVS is a much more "real" idea of crime, than the UCRs are.
No, the real way to get an 'idea' for crime is to live and breath the city/country in question.

I'm not saying America is the most violent country in the world, but it sure as hell is a lot worse than Canada.
The comparrison is a joke.

Text
The joke is on you. You are comparing ONE type of crime and trying to say it counts for all types. That doesn't work out if you want the REAL facts.
 

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