A History of Taxes

[Queasy]

Originally posted by: iwantanewcomputer

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: Quasmo
2010's Middle Class> So I only have to pay taxes when I purchase something, no income tax?
Government> Yup!

well.... atleast I can dream... go Flat Tax.

Actually, you mean Fair Tax.

the problem with a fair tax or 100% sales tax is that it would greatly encourage the black market selling of goods and services. There is not much of an incentive to look on the black market for things with 5-10% sasles tax, but 25% would make people and buisnesses always looking for a way around it. It is wasier for the government to keep track of income than sales tax.

Have you looked at what you pay in federal taxes? Income tax, medicare, social security, excise taxes, death taxes, telecommunication taxes, and on and on and on. What's more, corporations "pay" taxes but all they are really doing is including the taxes in the cost of their products and services.

Not to mention the costs at personal and business levels of keeping up with the all the federal regulations in regards to taxes. Companies leave the United States to hide from our tax systems. When Chrysler and Daimler merged, they chose Germany over the United States because the tax consequences were more favorable to them in Germany.

Now replace all of that with a simple straight-forward sales tax. No income tax, no social security tax, no medicare tax, no federal tax of any other kind. Now throw in a monthly prebate check to every household to cover the basic necessities of life up to the poverty level. Voila...the Fair Tax.

 

[Amplifier]

Originally posted by: Queasy
words.

Although I feel the flat tax is a superior system to the fair tax, either is better than that monstrosity we have now.

 

[waggy]

Originally posted by: Amplifier

Originally posted by: Queasy
words.

Although I feel the flat tax is a superior system to the fair tax, either is better than that monstrosity we have now.

i have to agree. the tax system we have now is very screwed up.

 

[Queasy]

Originally posted by: waggy

Originally posted by: Amplifier

Originally posted by: Queasy
words.

Although I feel the flat tax is a superior system to the fair tax, either is better than that monstrosity we have now.

i have to agree. the tax system we have now is very screwed up.

Yep. The current tax system is a massive uncontrollable behemoth. Too many rules, too many exceptions, too many special favors and TOO MANY LOBBYISTS!

 

[Drekce]

Originally posted by: Siddhartha
First reduce the size of the military by 50 to 75%, to a size that is large enough to protect the US borders. Then talk about paying less taxes.

Are you really that naive?

 

[Amplifier]

Originally posted by: Drekce


Are you really that naive?

That's why no one really responded to his post.

 

[DrPizza]

So, with the fair tax, the more money you make, the lower the percentage of your total income goes to taxes (because you can save more money than people who don't make a lot)? Am I figuring this out correctly??

Show me my mistake:
Family A:
Income $20,000
Needs food, shelter, clothing, etc.; spends $15,000 on necessities; nailed with the 10% fair tax, which ads on another $1500 to their costs.
They manage to save $3500 a year. Effective tax rate works out to 7.5% of their income.

Family B:
Income $1 Million.
Spends $100,000 on "necessities" - nicer house, nicer car, etc.
Add on the 10% tax on what they spend = $10,000
That works out to an effective tax rate of 1%.

Play with the numbers however you like; those making less money are able to save less, hence they will have a higher effective tax rate.
Those who make more would have a huge incentive to save - to not buy that hummer and to settle for a cheaper car. Why? Because their saving value would skyrocket since they don't have to pay an income tax on their profits.

 

[Apex]

Originally posted by: DrPizza
So, with the fair tax, the more money you make, the lower the percentage of your total income goes to taxes (because you can save more money than people who don't make a lot)? Am I figuring this out correctly??

Show me my mistake:
Family A:
Income $20,000
Needs food, shelter, clothing, etc.; spends $15,000 on necessities; nailed with the 10% fair tax, which ads on another $1500 to their costs.
They manage to save $3500 a year. Effective tax rate works out to 7.5% of their income.

Family B:
Income $1 Million.
Spends $100,000 on "necessities" - nicer house, nicer car, etc.
Add on the 10% tax on what they spend = $10,000
That works out to an effective tax rate of 1%.

Play with the numbers however you like; those making less money are able to save less, hence they will have a higher effective tax rate.
Those who make more would have a huge incentive to save - to not buy that hummer and to settle for a cheaper car. Why? Because their saving value would skyrocket since they don't have to pay an income tax on their profits.

Incorrect.

Taxes on necessities are sent back to all valid Social Security cardholders who are US residents. This includes food, clothing, shelter, transportation, medical care, etc.

 

[Queasy]

Originally posted by: Apex

Originally posted by: DrPizza
So, with the fair tax, the more money you make, the lower the percentage of your total income goes to taxes (because you can save more money than people who don't make a lot)? Am I figuring this out correctly??

Show me my mistake:
Family A:
Income $20,000
Needs food, shelter, clothing, etc.; spends $15,000 on necessities; nailed with the 10% fair tax, which ads on another $1500 to their costs.
They manage to save $3500 a year. Effective tax rate works out to 7.5% of their income.

Family B:
Income $1 Million.
Spends $100,000 on "necessities" - nicer house, nicer car, etc.
Add on the 10% tax on what they spend = $10,000
That works out to an effective tax rate of 1%.

Play with the numbers however you like; those making less money are able to save less, hence they will have a higher effective tax rate.
Those who make more would have a huge incentive to save - to not buy that hummer and to settle for a cheaper car. Why? Because their saving value would skyrocket since they don't have to pay an income tax on their profits.

Incorrect.

Taxes on necessities are sent back to all valid Social Security cardholders who are US residents. This includes food, clothing, shelter, transportation, medical care, etc.

Yep. Under the Fair Tax, family A would likely pay no taxes at all (or very close to it). Same as under the current income tax system.

 

[theeedude]

Flat taxes are a nice theory from conservative institutes, just like invading Iraq was a nice theory from a conservative institute. You have to be pretty out of touch with reality to not realize that they aren't workable in the real world, but conveniently a lot of conservatives fit the bill.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: senseamp
Flat taxes are a nice theory from conservative institutes, just like invading Iraq was a nice theory from a conservative institute. You have to be pretty out of touch with reality to not realize that they aren't workable in the real world, but conveniently a lot of conservatives fit the bill.

you do realize the super wealthy pay a less percentage of their income in the current system than middle class citizens right?

 

[Apex]

Originally posted by: senseamp
Flat taxes are a nice theory from conservative institutes, just like invading Iraq was a nice theory from a conservative institute. You have to be pretty out of touch with reality to not realize that they aren't workable in the real world, but conveniently a lot of conservatives fit the bill.

Interesting. So lemme see if I understand you properly:

Attack flat taxes as some unworkable theory from one sided politics. Insult those who believe it may work. Then, absolutely fail to provide any support whatsoever for your statements.

So if we were like you, we would probably say something like "that sounds typical of a liberal, unable to provide any solutions whatsoever, and lacking the intelligence to do anything but mock."

That about right?

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: senseamp
Flat taxes are a nice theory from conservative institutes, just like invading Iraq was a nice theory from a conservative institute. You have to be pretty out of touch with reality to not realize that they aren't workable in the real world, but conveniently a lot of conservatives fit the bill.

you do realize the super wealthy pay a less percentage of their income in the current system than middle class citizens right?

Yes, I do. And I am all for correcting that. We need more progressive taxes.

 

[Queasy]

Originally posted by: senseamp
Flat taxes are a nice theory from conservative institutes, just like invading Iraq was a nice theory from a conservative institute. You have to be pretty out of touch with reality to not realize that they aren't workable in the real world, but conveniently a lot of conservatives fit the bill.

Yep. The flat tax is such a piss poor idea that currently around 11 countries are using it including Hong Kong (since 1948) and Russia.

Now...who's out of touch? Nice attack there with no supporting evidence. Please play again.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: senseamp
Flat taxes are a nice theory from conservative institutes, just like invading Iraq was a nice theory from a conservative institute. You have to be pretty out of touch with reality to not realize that they aren't workable in the real world, but conveniently a lot of conservatives fit the bill.

you do realize the super wealthy pay a less percentage of their income in the current system than middle class citizens right?

Yes, I do. And I am all for correcting that. We need more progressive taxes.

So why should someone who is more productive in society and provides jobs to the masses pay a more and more bigger percentage of their income in taxes?

 

[BlancoNino]

With a flat tax rate the rich guy still pays more dollars in taxes. Anyone else realize that?

Also, we should reduce congressional spending (which has kept going up and up and up), eliminate medicare and medicaid, and be more responsible with defense and military spending (make a couple cuts there too). That way we could all live with a reasonable flat tax rate of around 10-15%.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: senseamp
Flat taxes are a nice theory from conservative institutes, just like invading Iraq was a nice theory from a conservative institute. You have to be pretty out of touch with reality to not realize that they aren't workable in the real world, but conveniently a lot of conservatives fit the bill.

you do realize the super wealthy pay a less percentage of their income in the current system than middle class citizens right?

Yes, I do. And I am all for correcting that. We need more progressive taxes.

we have a super progressive tax right now. what the super wealthy ends up doing is moving their money to tax shelters. no matter how much you escalate the progression, you're doing no one any good, poor or "rich."

 

[Apex]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: senseamp
Flat taxes are a nice theory from conservative institutes, just like invading Iraq was a nice theory from a conservative institute. You have to be pretty out of touch with reality to not realize that they aren't workable in the real world, but conveniently a lot of conservatives fit the bill.

you do realize the super wealthy pay a less percentage of their income in the current system than middle class citizens right?

Yes, I do. And I am all for correcting that. We need more progressive taxes.

So why should someone who is more productive in society and provides jobs to the masses pay a more and more bigger percentage of their income in taxes?

To keep class warfare alive. Imagine what our society would be like without it.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: Apex

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: senseamp
Flat taxes are a nice theory from conservative institutes, just like invading Iraq was a nice theory from a conservative institute. You have to be pretty out of touch with reality to not realize that they aren't workable in the real world, but conveniently a lot of conservatives fit the bill.

you do realize the super wealthy pay a less percentage of their income in the current system than middle class citizens right?

Yes, I do. And I am all for correcting that. We need more progressive taxes.

So why should someone who is more productive in society and provides jobs to the masses pay a more and more bigger percentage of their income in taxes?

To keep class warfare alive. Imagine what our society would be like without it.

well sad part is super wealthy people barely pay any taxes to begin with. the only people raising taxes affect are middle class (who have no access to tax shelters) and the poor (who get screwed by slowing of the economy).

 

[Queasy]

Originally posted by: JS80

well sad part is super wealthy people barely pay any taxes to begin with. the only people raising taxes affect are middle class (who have no access to tax shelters) and the poor (who get screwed by slowing of the economy).

Actually, the poor and growing portions of the middle class are pretty much off the income tax rolls altogether now. They just get hammered by Social Security, Medicare, and all the other federal taxes lurking in the shadows.

 

[Slew Foot]

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: Quasmo

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: Quasmo

Just think about how insane that is. The government taking 25% of every purchase. I want a piece of that racket!

As opposed to 50% of your paycheck now?

 

[BlancoNino]

Originally posted by: JS80
well sad part is super wealthy people barely pay any taxes to begin with. the only people raising taxes affect are middle class (who have no access to tax shelters) and the poor (who get screwed by slowing of the economy).

I don't blame them for sheltering their taxes. Reagans tax cuts increase tax revenues for the government...because it helped the economy and the rich were actually willing to pay a fair amount instead of trying to get out of it.

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: Apex

Originally posted by: senseamp
Flat taxes are a nice theory from conservative institutes, just like invading Iraq was a nice theory from a conservative institute. You have to be pretty out of touch with reality to not realize that they aren't workable in the real world, but conveniently a lot of conservatives fit the bill.

Interesting. So lemme see if I understand you properly:

Attack flat taxes as some unworkable theory from one sided politics. Insult those who believe it may work. Then, absolutely fail to provide any support whatsoever for your statements.

So if we were like you, we would probably say something like "that sounds typical of a liberal, unable to provide any solutions whatsoever, and lacking the intelligence to do anything but mock."

That about right?

Well, let's see a politician try to pass a law that will take 30% (government spending as percent of GDP) from every single person with no deductions. The vast majority of people would be worse off in this scenario, and they would vote accordingly.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: JS80

well sad part is super wealthy people barely pay any taxes to begin with. the only people raising taxes affect are middle class (who have no access to tax shelters) and the poor (who get screwed by slowing of the economy).

Actually, the poor and growing portions of the middle class are pretty much off the income tax rolls altogether now. They just get hammered by Social Security, Medicare, and all the other federal taxes lurking in the shadows.

Summary: it's all fvcked up.

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: senseamp
Flat taxes are a nice theory from conservative institutes, just like invading Iraq was a nice theory from a conservative institute. You have to be pretty out of touch with reality to not realize that they aren't workable in the real world, but conveniently a lot of conservatives fit the bill.

you do realize the super wealthy pay a less percentage of their income in the current system than middle class citizens right?

Yes, I do. And I am all for correcting that. We need more progressive taxes.

So why should someone who is more productive in society and provides jobs to the masses pay a more and more bigger percentage of their income in taxes?

Because we live in a democratic country, and we can vote to make it that way.