A History of Taxes

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: senseamp

Taxes are no more stealing than an execution is a murder.

A better way to classify taxes would be to say that they are basically extortion.

By that measure, all laws are extortion and blackmail.

No, not really. The enforcement of all laws are indeed funded through extortion, however.

All laws are blackmail. You either obey them or the government is gonna hurt you.

Uh, no, that's extortion.

Blackmail is: the act of threatening to reveal information about a person unless the blackmailee meets certain demands. This information is usually of an embarrassing or socially damaging nature.

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: senseamp

Taxes are no more stealing than an execution is a murder.

A better way to classify taxes would be to say that they are basically extortion.

By that measure, all laws are extortion and blackmail.

No, not really. The enforcement of all laws are indeed funded through extortion, however.

All laws are blackmail. You either obey them or the government is gonna hurt you.

Uh, no, that's extortion.

Blackmail is: the act of threatening to reveal information about a person unless the blackmailee meets certain demands. This information is usually of an embarrassing or socially damaging nature.

You are right. All laws are extortion, not blackmail. Taxes are no different.

 

[SampSon]

I don't see how that could work in todays economy given how much we import. We've gone too far down the road away from a manufacturing based economy and I suspect that trying to go back in the other direction would be very painful for decades since it took us decades to move away from it.

A country that doesn't produce anything isn't worth much. We need production to remain viable.

I'd also suggesting taxing the sh!t out of goods like cigarettes. Less people smoking, fewer health problems in the future, less burden on our healthcare system in the future. Tax the sh!t out of fast food too. Cut back on obesity. Higher taxes on heavier low mpg cars, better for the environment.

Too much tax revenue for the government from sin taxes, they don't WANT them to go away. Taxing anything and everything that has a potential negative outcome is not a good, fair idea.

that's against WTO rules. which means they'll just tariff us back and we'd all lose. take economics.

I took economics, but thanks for the concern. No need to be confrontational in everyone of your posts, this isn't a competition. America needs to get back to manufacturing. Self-sufficient production that allows higher taxes on simliar imorted goods that would be available here. Idealistic I know, just like my initial post, but that's a general ideal that needs to be respected.

Now replace all of that with a simple straight-forward sales tax. No income tax, no social security tax, no medicare tax, no federal tax of any other kind. Now throw in a monthly prebate check to every household to cover the basic necessities of life up to the poverty level. Voila...the Fair Tax.

So do these "necessities" cover medical expenses? What happens to medicare and other socialized medicine?

 

[Queasy]

Originally posted by: SampSon

I don't see how that could work in todays economy given how much we import. We've gone too far down the road away from a manufacturing based economy and I suspect that trying to go back in the other direction would be very painful for decades since it took us decades to move away from it.

A country that doesn't produce anything isn't worth much. We need production to remain viable.

The USA's manufacturing sector is on its 36th consecutive month of expansion. Link You have to go back 27 years to find a longer streak of expansion.

Now replace all of that with a simple straight-forward sales tax. No income tax, no social security tax, no medicare tax, no federal tax of any other kind. Now throw in a monthly prebate check to every household to cover the basic necessities of life up to the poverty level. Voila...the Fair Tax.

So do these "necessities" cover medical expenses? What happens to medicare and other socialized medicine?

Yes. Medicare and the rest still exist. They just get their funding out of the pool of revenue generated by the Fair Tax. Heck, Social Security revenue is just slushed in with the rest of the taxes anyways.

The Fair Tax is not meant to solve the problems with Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, spending restraint, etc. It is meant as a revenue-neutral replacement for the current tax system that is more fair, more open, more honest, and less susceptible to the machinations of special interests and lobbyists.

 

[SampSon]

Yes. Medicare and the rest still exist. They just get their funding out of the pool of revenue generated by the Fair Tax. Heck, Social Security revenue is just slushed in with the rest of the taxes anyways.

The Fair Tax is not meant to solve the problems with Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, spending restraint, etc. It is meant as a revenue-neutral replacement for the current tax system that is more fair, more open, more honest, and less susceptible to the machinations of special interests and lobbyists.

I must find a way to cheat this system!

After reading further into fair tax, I'm not sure how it would benefit me with business taxes. I write off tens of thousands of dollars for business expenditures, how will that be effected?

 

[Linflas]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: senseamp
Flat taxes are a nice theory from conservative institutes, just like invading Iraq was a nice theory from a conservative institute. You have to be pretty out of touch with reality to not realize that they aren't workable in the real world, but conveniently a lot of conservatives fit the bill.

you do realize the super wealthy pay a less percentage of their income in the current system than middle class citizens right?

Yes, I do. And I am all for correcting that. We need more progressive taxes.

So why should someone who is more productive in society and provides jobs to the masses pay a more and more bigger percentage of their income in taxes?

Because we live in a democratic country, and we can vote to make it that way.

<sigh> mob rule, eh?

I seriously hope you don't believe what you are posting.

We're a Representative Republic btw. Not a democracy.

Progressive Income Taxes is one of the founding tenets of Communism.

Not mob rule, but rule through our elected representatives as the Founders of our country intended. If they didn't want us to vote for our own benefit, they wouldn't have given us the vote. If they wanted flat tax, they would have written it into the Constitution, and not left it up to the Congress

The writers of the Consitution did not intend for 51% of the population to be allowed to steal from the remaining 49%. That's preposterous. Please move to Canada/Europe.

They did intend for the people to vote for members of Congress who would set tax rates. You may not like it, but that's in the Constitution. If you don't like it, you are going to have to move.

And as a check to that impulse they had a Senate to represent the individual states not subject to direct election. I am still of the opinion that the 16th and 17th amendments to the constitution are 2 of the 3 worst ever ratified.

 

[Queasy]

Originally posted by: SampSon

Yes. Medicare and the rest still exist. They just get their funding out of the pool of revenue generated by the Fair Tax. Heck, Social Security revenue is just slushed in with the rest of the taxes anyways.

The Fair Tax is not meant to solve the problems with Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, spending restraint, etc. It is meant as a revenue-neutral replacement for the current tax system that is more fair, more open, more honest, and less susceptible to the machinations of special interests and lobbyists.

I must find a way to cheat this system!

After reading further into fair tax, I'm not sure how it would benefit me with business taxes. I write off tens of thousands of dollars for business expenditures, how will that be effected?

Well, since there won't be any business taxes you won't have anything to write off.

 

[SampSon]

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: SampSon

Yes. Medicare and the rest still exist. They just get their funding out of the pool of revenue generated by the Fair Tax. Heck, Social Security revenue is just slushed in with the rest of the taxes anyways.

The Fair Tax is not meant to solve the problems with Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, spending restraint, etc. It is meant as a revenue-neutral replacement for the current tax system that is more fair, more open, more honest, and less susceptible to the machinations of special interests and lobbyists.

I must find a way to cheat this system!

After reading further into fair tax, I'm not sure how it would benefit me with business taxes. I write off tens of thousands of dollars for business expenditures, how will that be effected?

Well, since there won't be any business taxes you won't have anything to write off.

I'm talking more along the lines of products I purchase in order to conduct business. Many of these purchases probably wouldn't be considered life necessities and I also spend above what limits I can see are set in the fair tax plan.

 

[CPA]

Originally posted by: Quasmo
2010's Middle Class> So I only have to pay taxes when I purchase something, no income tax?
Government> Yup!

well.... atleast I can dream... go Flat Tax.

That's not a flat tax, that's a national sales tax, and I agree with it.

 

[CPA]

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: Quasmo
2010's Middle Class> So I only have to pay taxes when I purchase something, no income tax?
Government> Yup!

well.... atleast I can dream... go Flat Tax.

Sounds more like a nightmare to me, especially since the tax would be around 25%! :Q

Most have estimated it would be about 15%, with food, housing and medical costs excluded.

 

[Linflas]

Originally posted by: CPA

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: Quasmo
2010's Middle Class> So I only have to pay taxes when I purchase something, no income tax?
Government> Yup!

well.... atleast I can dream... go Flat Tax.

Sounds more like a nightmare to me, especially since the tax would be around 25%! :Q

Most have estimated it would be about 15%, with food, housing and medical costs excluded.

Is that including all the entitlement taxes like social security, medicare etc.? The 20-25% number is what I have seen floated around as well.

 

[CPA]

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: JS80

well sad part is super wealthy people barely pay any taxes to begin with. the only people raising taxes affect are middle class (who have no access to tax shelters) and the poor (who get screwed by slowing of the economy).

Actually, the poor and growing portions of the middle class are pretty much off the income tax rolls altogether now. They just get hammered by Social Security, Medicare, and all the other federal taxes lurking in the shadows.

Correct. Something like the wealthiest 5% of Americans pay 90-95% of income taxes.

 

[CPA]

Originally posted by: Linflas

Originally posted by: CPA

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: Quasmo
2010's Middle Class> So I only have to pay taxes when I purchase something, no income tax?
Government> Yup!

well.... atleast I can dream... go Flat Tax.

Sounds more like a nightmare to me, especially since the tax would be around 25%! :Q

Most have estimated it would be about 15%, with food, housing and medical costs excluded.

Is that including all the entitlement taxes like social security, medicare etc.? The 20-25% number is what I have seen floated around as well.

No, because those would still be imposed on income. I'm only talking Federal Withholding.

 

[crownjules]

Originally posted by: BlancoNino
With a flat tax rate the rich guy still pays more dollars in taxes. Anyone else realize that?

Of course. 17% of several million is always going to be greater than 17% of 50k. But it's fair because everyone is taxed the same percentage and the loopholes that exist currently that allow the rich and powerful to evade a good majority of their taxes will hopefully be abolished and/or rectified.

 

[Linflas]

Originally posted by: CPA

Originally posted by: Linflas

Originally posted by: CPA

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: Quasmo
2010's Middle Class> So I only have to pay taxes when I purchase something, no income tax?
Government> Yup!

well.... atleast I can dream... go Flat Tax.

Sounds more like a nightmare to me, especially since the tax would be around 25%! :Q

Most have estimated it would be about 15%, with food, housing and medical costs excluded.

Is that including all the entitlement taxes like social security, medicare etc.? The 20-25% number is what I have seen floated around as well.

No, because those would still be imposed on income. I'm only talking Federal Withholding.

I doubt it will ever happen then since most people will look at it and see that they are still having +/- 10% of their income withheld by the Feds on top of an 18-24% tax on every purchase when you add the Fed tax to the state sales tax. All of this is really just dreaming anyway since Federal pols main form of power is the tax system and all their little social engineering schemes and special tax treatments for all sorts of interest groups and businesses and there is no way they would ever swear off of that willingly.

 

[Queasy]

Originally posted by: SampSon

Originally posted by: Queasy

Originally posted by: SampSon

Yes. Medicare and the rest still exist. They just get their funding out of the pool of revenue generated by the Fair Tax. Heck, Social Security revenue is just slushed in with the rest of the taxes anyways.

The Fair Tax is not meant to solve the problems with Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, spending restraint, etc. It is meant as a revenue-neutral replacement for the current tax system that is more fair, more open, more honest, and less susceptible to the machinations of special interests and lobbyists.

I must find a way to cheat this system!

After reading further into fair tax, I'm not sure how it would benefit me with business taxes. I write off tens of thousands of dollars for business expenditures, how will that be effected?

Well, since there won't be any business taxes you won't have anything to write off.

I'm talking more along the lines of products I purchase in order to conduct business. Many of these purchases probably wouldn't be considered life necessities and I also spend above what limits I can see are set in the fair tax plan.

All the taxes you currently file as a business...GONE. You'll pay the Fair Tax on any new goods or services you purchase. But you'll save lots of time and money in not having to comply with the myriad of federal tax regulations for businesses.

Business don't get the monthly prebate check. Households do. So, according to your household size, you'll get a monthly prebate check that will cover all the necessities of life up to the poverty level.