Reading this thread makes me sad. What the fuck has happened.
Makes me want to not get involved.
But you know what? I will. Every time I am called. It's in my blood.
As another poster said, those are not good comparisons. You're comparing situations in which the moment of last resort had clearly arrived, with situations in which that is not at all clear. There was nobody else to left to act on those planes, and there was no single agency or group that could fully respond to what happened on the ground on 9/11. Those people made the right decision, and showed good judgement. But extending that into the concept that intervening is always the noble and correct thing to do renders it little more than a useless platitude. Rational people evaluate each situation that arises on its own characteristics. There is no evidence that Wilcox needed to intervene in order to either prevent a tragedy or help in recovering from one.
Wasn't her "cover" as an ordinary shopper with a mohawk blown when she helped kill two police officers across the street?
As is often the case, the witness accounts may have made sense to themselves at the time but when included in the overall sequence of events it is extremely unlikely that posing as a shopper, if that's what happened, would have much of a chance of fooling supposedly trained police officers.
I posted in this thread because I think we will be far worse off as a society if we encourage (label as a hero) legally/illegally armed civilians to involved themselves in any event they perceive as criminal, threatening to others, etc. It will inevitably lead to more of the same unfortunate situations that trained officers with legal authority find themselves in, such as killing children with toy guns, shooting up cars driven by confused old ladies, or getting spooked and shooting the neighbor in the dark of night.
Plus, I just don't see this guy as any type of hero or being courageous. I honestly feel he was foolish and accomplished nothing by intervening.
QFTno one left to fully respond or act? how about taking control back of the damned plane. you might be going down, but why let someone else choose that for you and take others with them? you have a chance at a crash landing. you have 0 chance crashing into WTC or the pentagon at the helm of the hijackers.
handful of hijackers vs 120 passengers. passengers could have prevented the planes from crashing into the pentagon and WTC towers, like the folks who crashed in PA did.
the passengers may have lost their lives, but they could prevented the additional loss of life.
is intervening always advisable? maybe not. but in this guy's mind, he thought the risk was obviously acceptable given his knowledge of the situation. unfortunately for him, there was an accomplice.
to add to that, i have a childhood story. the magnitude is nowhere near similar, but i think the principle of the story is along the same line:
two girls in my gradeschool started fighting. i stepped in to break them up, and did so successfully. my mom, a teacher at the school, came over to take care of the aftermath. my mom also chastised me for intervening because of someone might say i sexually assaulted them or some nonsense if i touched someone the wrong way.
honestly, i was very confused, and a little disappointed. i did the right thing - i stopped a fight. but i was being criticized for it.
so what's the moral of the story? the guy saw something wrong - he saw people in danger, and he made a decision to try and stop, what i can only assume in his made, was an already extremely bad situation from going even further south.
yes, he lost his life, and that is tragic, but he was someone willing to do something.
my (soon-to-be) brother in law was in a parking garage and saw multiple men kicking and beating a guy on the ground. he ran in and stopped the fight, at the risk of his own safety. the assailants left, and police later apprehended and charged them.
these are people willing to do the right thing.
unlike the people who could have stopped 9/11 from being as devastating as it was.
unlike the canadians who sat terrified on a bus as a man was beheaded in front of them.
unlike, apparently, so many in this thread.
frankly, i think we need more people like this Wilcox guy, not less.
edit: and since i'm totally armchair quarterbacking this thing, i'll say that i can only hope to have the same courage in a similar situation, but sitting in my chair, i could not tell you what my reaction would be.
LOL. You don't really think you are Spiderman do you?
I think that is totally awesome!
Your bias may not want to admit it, but she well could have blended in until behind Those "trained officers", after which it would have been shooting fish in a barrel, but keep on denying that real possibility...
Again, it wasn't much of a possibility at all being that the store was well equipped with video surveillance that was being monitored by the police and people in contact with the police. To suggest that this lady could have actually "blended in" is ridiculous.
Stupid really, and makes me think you live in a fantasy land where anyone can be a hero, yourself included. A land where just trying, but still getting immediately killed, gets you the same hero trophy that all the people who actually accomplish something get.
You don't get it and never will.
It's the Eagle Scout in me. I can't help but act to help others.
There are two kinds of people. Those that act and those that don't. Most don't.
no one left to fully respond or act? how about taking control back of the damned plane. you might be going down, but why let someone else choose that for you and take others with them? you have a chance at a crash landing. you have 0 chance crashing into WTC or the pentagon at the helm of the hijackers.
When the fuck did I do that?
Fact is, when I was in my 20s I used to be just like you. Wanted to get my CCW so I could protect myself and my loved ones... blah blah blah. It is not an easy thing to do though to get a CCW in CA (although that may be changing). Fact is you will probably live your entire life and never have any real need for a gun, and I own 13 of them including 5 handguns. I have guns I've owned for more than 20 years, haven't had a need to use one yet in self defense... hope I never do. I did drive through an area of Los Angeles during the early 90s that was being looted and I did have a loaded handgun within arm's reach but never had to use it... I sure wasn't dumb fuck enough to try to stop any crimes being committed.
And you're so biased against the possibility that an armed citizen helped to save lives you double down on stupid...the police were not there monitoring those cameras when they walked in, they had not much of anything to go on when they arrived, she could have easily been just another walmartian until she was behind them and opened fire. how can you be so deliberately stupid to not acknowledge his sacrifice and courage? Are you that much of a sheep? I guess so...go on cowering little sheep, there are others willing to step up and be responsible
It's not trolling this story is textbook proof that citizens are not the police and shouldn't have guns the CCW is too easy to obtain in his state. Look at the facts.
1. Applied several times to be a PO and failed. Why? It's not that difficult to be a cop.
2. Fails to become a policeman so he gets a CCW and walks around with a gun ( mall cop mentality )
3. Killers tell everybody to leave, everybody leaves but he decided to stay and kill one of the gunman when no one was in danger.
4. Has CCW but it appears he had no self deference gun training but decided to kill the guy with a gun.
The proper response in this situation would have been to leaved when the guys with guns told him to do so. Pick up his cell phone and call 911 from a safe distance.
If anything, I blame the system that gave a undoubtedly mentally challenged man in some way a CCW. Leave the policing to the Police. In any self deface situation your first priority is to watch out for your safety. Instead dude decided to be Judge Dredd and payed the ultimate price.
You don't get it and never will.
It's the Eagle Scout in me. I can't help but act to help others.
There are two kinds of people. Those that act and those that don't. Most don't.
Seems like the witnesses and police don't share your skepticism...she was pushing around a shopping cart trying to blend in while hubby fired a shot in the air, nobody would have noticed her with him making such a spectacle including those minimum wage "security guards" behind the cameras, they were shitting themselves and looking at the dude that was shooting...but in the end what you "believe" and your opinion amounts to jack, the police and damn near everyone else sees his actions as heroicI believe that the police were in contact with Wal-Mart security, who were certainly monitoring the cameras, before entering the building. One of the first things that happened after entering the building was to then send an officer to the security office to communicate with the two teams who were searching the building. Wal-Mart security is in near daily contact with police. The people and location are familiar to local police and there are plans already in place for if something like this happens.
But yes, I guess it's possible that she could have dove into a cloths rack and popped out dressed in Hello Kitty pajamas or disguised herself as an Igloo cooler and fooled everyone.
People with concealed weapons permits aren't cops, and they aren't trained to deal with other armed opponents in a situation like that, even if they think they are. If you are a civilian carrying a weapon it should be a last resort, imo, in the situation where your own life or someone else's is in immediate danger. And by immediate danger I don't mean armed criminals walking into a store. Until you have reason to believe they are about to harm you or someone else, then I think you should keep that thing in the holster and wait for the cops. You're very likely to just fuck things up, for yourself or others. In fact, opinion aside, I don't see how any other rule of behavior can even work in a setting where CCW is legal. Otherwise, the minute something starts to go down every armed citizen in range transforms into insta-deputy, and we definitely don't want that. I don't trust 90% of you to drive a car on the highway, much less confront armed criminals in a store that I'm in.
As for the general opinion on intervention, I bet there are a few people happy this concealed carry permit holder didn't run away:
http://fox13now.com/2012/04/26/two-stabbed-in-downtown-slc-parking-lot/
Opinions that never change on a forum shouldn't waiver your beliefs in the least. While hindsight is 20/20, the armchair consensus is that going up against another with an already drawn gun is a sketchy scene even if there is not another assailant. If your assailant is determined and you cannot make a perfect nervous system shot, expect return fire that endangers yourself and others. Not knowing what exactly went down, it just appears to me that he made a bad decision to draw. Doesn't reduce the value of CCW in the least, doesn't change the fact that crazy people exist, it was just an unfortunate scene. The last thing we need is hesitation when CCW could be used successfully.Reading this thread makes me sad. What the fuck has happened.
Makes me want to not get involved.
But you know what? I will. Every time I am called. It's in my blood.
meh, the suspect only had a knife. Chances of stopping this guy by simply aiming a gun at him were very high so it's an easy judgment call on the part of the CCW.
Here is another case where a CCW holder saved the day: http://hotair.com/archives/2014/03/...-general-meets-concealed-carry-permit-holder/
Of course, stories like this don't make national news.
