A Good Guy With a Gun Tried to Stop the Las Vegas Shooting

[OlafSicky]

isn't trolling an offense punishable by banning?

It's not trolling this story is textbook proof that citizens are not the police and shouldn't have guns the CCW is too easy to obtain in his state. Look at the facts.

1. Applied several times to be a PO and failed. Why? It's not that difficult to be a cop.
2. Fails to become a policeman so he gets a CCW and walks around with a gun ( mall cop mentality )

3. Killers tell everybody to leave, everybody leaves but he decided to stay and kill one of the gunman when no one was in danger.

4. Has CCW but it appears he had no self deference gun training but decided to kill the guy with a gun.

The proper response in this situation would have been to leaved when the guys with guns told him to do so. Pick up his cell phone and call 911 from a safe distance.
If anything, I blame the system that gave a undoubtedly mentally challenged man in some way a CCW. Leave the policing to the Police. In any self deface situation your first priority is to watch out for your safety. Instead dude decided to be Judge Dredd and payed the ultimate price.

 

[MongGrel]

The police are saying the woman was posing as a regular shopper and was going to ambush police when they found her husband. Mr. Wilcox, through his actions of engaging and about to shoot the man changed their plan and also gave away their position to officers because of the shots fired.

It's not hard to figure out. He disrupted their plan to kill officers.

I'd say you probably nailed it considering the circumstances.

 

[MongGrel]

These situations are very scary, but I lean toward what you said here. If I don't have a gun, and something happens, I am "all in" with regard to trying to think my way out and focus on escape.
If I have a gun, would I hesitate? Would I think to find a tactical position instead of escape? Would I think my chances were better to find a tactical position and try and survive that way?
I don't know, but I do know that once I draw my gun or am about to draw it, then I am all but committed to a firefight. I think winning a firefight is very difficult and even if you manage to actually hit the person, you can still get shot so easily. In this case, the guy didn't even get a shot off.
In a situation like this, my shit would have bolted.
In a gun fight, I have no reason to think I would win against even the most average criminal. Even with training and practice, the unpredictable nature of these situations, as well as difficulty in aiming a hand gun under pressure, makes me think my chances of getting shot are pretty damn good.
And don't troll me about not being able to aim a hand gun. I've seen videos of cops unload a whole mag at a stationary target and completely miss. Under pressure, pistol accuracy sucks unless you are damn good, as in way, way above average.

I'm pretty good with one actually, and still wouldn't have went setting up a firefight in that situation.

 

[moonbogg]

I'm pretty good with one actually, and still wouldn't have went setting up a firefight in that situation.

Fuck no you wouldn't, because that shit was stupid and pointless.

 

[KeithP]

It doesn't sound like he had rambo rage at all because there are no real details, so both of you are blowing hot air.

Since when have people discussed hot button issues after they get complete information so they have a logical basis for their positions? They jump to conclusions based on previously formed opinions and ignore or downplay the facts as they become available to support their original belief. It is was the internet was made for.

-KeithP

 

[Humpy]

"Mostly" empty...and the couple was thrown off track after having to shoot Wilcox dimwit, had that not happened she could have continued to feign not being involved until she got behind the officers going after her husband...it isn't rocket science what they were planning, he was the distraction to get her behind the police, then it would be a cross fire situation...Wilcox messed up their plans

I don't think we know exactly what their plan was do we? Can you link to the actual plan or something other than conjecture?

Saying that "the couple was thrown off track after having to shoot Wilcox" while they were in the midst of a shooting spree strikes me as an odd statement. Their plan was to shoot people no? How did shooting someone screw up the plan?

 

[Markbnj]

Wilcox may have been mistaken from a bird's-eye-view, but that doesn't diminish his courage or intentions.

I don't detract from either.

 

[Humpy]

There we have it ladies and gentlemen. Because Humpy has 20/20 hindsight, he feels that he's morally justified in calling a man who was doing his best to protect others foolish, and calling his death meaningless.

I sincerely hope you're never in need of a hero, policeman, or anyone else who might have to put their lives on the line in an attempt to possibly save yours. Especially since you seem to believe the judgement should be based on the outcome rather than the intent.

Forum posts have to be morally justified now? LOL

Yes, I believe that we should be judged based on the results of our actions and not so much our intent. This applies to "heroes" as well as the criminals.

 

[spidey07]

Fuck no you wouldn't, because that shit was stupid and pointless.

I'm the kind of person who simply must do something if I see danger or somebody needs my help or I could prevent loss of life. I can't stop myself. It's who I am and can't change it. I've had buddies yelling at me to stay away from helping and elderly man who cracked his head wide open after a fall. You're going to get sued they said. Don't get involved they said. They tried to physically restrain me. I treated him anyway.

Doesn't matter. If I can do something to help I will. It's in my nature and I really can't stop it. Some people ate like that. Sounds like he was.

Hindsight and all it was a bad decision. But at the time it was the right one. He's still a hero by definition.

 

[spidey07]

I don't think we know exactly what their plan was do we? Can you link to the actual plan or something other than conjecture?

Saying that "the couple was thrown off track after having to shoot Wilcox" while they were in the midst of a shooting spree strikes me as an odd statement. Their plan was to shoot people no? How did shooting someone screw up the plan?

They were after police. They didn't shoot others in the pizza place. It's not hard to figure out. She was posing as a regular shopper pushing a cart around.

 

[Eli]

Why do we even have to "take a side"? Why does this event have to make you for, or against concealed carry or guns in general? Shit happens.

How can anyone blame this guy for what he did? That's wrong. Some of you are basically calling him an idiot for "getting himself killed". Lovely. I can guarantee you would all be singing his praises if his unfortunately ill-conceived plot had worked.

He did more than most people in this thread would have done, myself included. He should be praised for that.

It is impossible to know what would have happened without his actions. His actions happened, and we have the result. He was killed in the line of duty of being a concerned citizen with the proper tool and will to proceed. That is nothing to be put down for. It's akin to putting someone down for attempting to save a victim(ie: CPR) and failing. Nobody in their right minds would do that, but when you involve guns everyone goes nuts and loses their minds. D:

 

[spidey07]

It's what's wrong with society. The don't get involved attitude.

 

[corwin]

I don't think we know exactly what their plan was do we? Can you link to the actual plan or something other than conjecture?

Saying that "the couple was thrown off track after having to shoot Wilcox" while they were in the midst of a shooting spree strikes me as an odd statement. Their plan was to shoot people no? How did shooting someone screw up the plan?

404: shooting spree not found. They wanted to kill cops, a civilian with a ccw got in their way and screwed up their plan, any one with an iq above 80 should be able to figure that one out

 

[JulesMaximus]

Good for you Cyrano de Bergerac. I hope you never walk into an unexpected situation where your "wits" are insufficient. In the meantime I'll carry my gun the same way I wear my seat-belt. If it's a constant "burden" to you then I agree you have the wrong mentality and shouldn't be carrying. In fact that's the primary trait of someone with a "rambo mentality", they take their carry way too seriously. Being proficient in the use of one's firearm does not require constant alertness.

For my part I've been in a situation where my "wits" told me to feign having a weapon in my pocket (I was unarmed at the time), and it worked; but if the two guys in question had been looking for something other than an easy score or called my bluff the "wittiest" person on earth wouldn't have been able to get me out of a fight with 2 larger guys, nor could they have foreseen the confrontation without a major dose of paranoia.

So to sum up, I agree that even with a firearm the smart thing to to do is run if you have the chance, and if you don't want to carry, fine. But don't equate your "wits" to carrying a firearm in terms of preparation. Bad stuff happens to good people in good areas doing exactly what they're supposed to do.

When the fuck did I do that?

Fact is, when I was in my 20s I used to be just like you. Wanted to get my CCW so I could protect myself and my loved ones... blah blah blah. It is not an easy thing to do though to get a CCW in CA (although that may be changing). Fact is you will probably live your entire life and never have any real need for a gun, and I own 13 of them including 5 handguns. I have guns I've owned for more than 20 years, haven't had a need to use one yet in self defense... hope I never do. I did drive through an area of Los Angeles during the early 90s that was being looted and I did have a loaded handgun within arm's reach but never had to use it... I sure wasn't dumb fuck enough to try to stop any crimes being committed.

 

[spidey07]

One of my favorite quotes.

Evil can only prevail when good men do not act.

 

[JulesMaximus]

One of my favorite quotes.

Evil can only prevail when good men do not act.

I suspect that whomever said that has been dead for a long time. Fact is, we live in a modern society and that's what cell phones, cops and the justice system are for. I'm not a cop and I'm not judge, jury and executioner... nor do I want to be.

 

[Humpy]

404: shooting spree not found. They wanted to kill cops, a civilian with a ccw got in their way and screwed up their plan, any one with an iq above 80 should be able to figure that one out

Yet, I asked you how their plan was screwed up and you weren't able to answer.

It seems to me that what screwed things up was getting pinned down and shot several times by the police.

 

[Humpy]

He was killed in the line of duty of being a concerned citizen with the proper tool to proceed. That is nothing to be put down for. It's akin to putting down a doctor for attempting to save a victim outside of the hospital environment, and failing

I would suggest that a doctor has the training and experience that would preclude most criticism from occurring in the situation presented.

 

[corwin]

Yet, I asked you how their plan was screwed up and you weren't able to answer.

It seems to me that what screwed things up was getting pinned down and shot several times by the police.

And I told you how, you're just a little too dim to admit I have a point...they wanted to shoot cops and Wilcox screwed that up, no more cops got shot thanks to him. I know it doesn't fit your agenda but too damn bad

 

[luv2liv]

One of my favorite quotes.

Evil can only prevail when good men do not act.

be honest. why arent you in Syria saving people from that dictator?

reality is, u you do whatever you can with whatever skills you got. the guy was definitely not trained/prepared for the situation. i dont know if any of us will ever be.

 

[Markbnj]

Why do we even have to "take a side"? Why does this event have to make you for, or against concealed carry or guns in general? Shit happens.

How can anyone blame this guy for what he did? That's wrong. Some of you are basically calling him an idiot for "getting himself killed". Lovely. I can guarantee you would all be singing his praises if his unfortunately ill-conceived plot had worked.

He did more than most people in this thread would have done, myself included. He should be praised for that.

It is impossible to know what would have happened without his actions. His actions happened, and we have the result. He was killed in the line of duty of being a concerned citizen with the proper tool and will to proceed. That is nothing to be put down for. It's akin to putting someone down for attempting to save a victim(ie: CPR) and failing. Nobody in their right minds would do that, but when you involve guns everyone goes nuts and loses their minds. D:

On the other hand, with concealed carry laws back on the books and more citizens exercising their right to be armed at all times, the parameters around when a responsible citizen should or should not draw a firearm and attempt to intervene in a crime would seem like a reasonable topic for discussion.

 

[Humpy]

And I told you how, you're just a little too dim to admit I have a point...they wanted to shoot cops and Wilcox screwed that up, no more cops got shot thanks to him. I know it doesn't fit your agenda but too damn bad

They shot two cops and wanted to shoot more cops, then they begrudgingly shot Wilcox to death (which really fucked up their plan), then continued shooting at the cops but, thanks to our hero, they missed and no more cops got shot.

You know, it took me a while but I will admit you have a point of some sort.

 

[corwin]

They shot two cops and wanted to shoot more cops, then they begrudgingly shot Wilcox to death (which really fucked up their plan), then continued shooting at the cops but, thanks to our hero, they missed and no more cops got shot.

You know, it took me a while but I will admit you have a point of some sort.

Witness accounts of her trying to "look like a shopper" would lead a person to think she wanted to trick the cops responding into thinking she wasn't involved, why else would she do that except to get them to turn their backs on her so she could kill them while they focused on hubby? Her blowing her "cover" to kill Wilcox screwed that up...how much more of a picture do you need painted? they were explicitly looking to kill cops, Wilcox got in the way and potentially saved police lives...will we ever know for sure? nope, but it makes sense

 

[spidey07]

I suspect that whomever said that has been dead for a long time. Fact is, we live in a modern society and that's what cell phones, cops and the justice system are for. I'm not a cop and I'm not judge, jury and executioner... nor do I want to be.

Then you just don't get it. You don't feel that urge to help.

 

[Humpy]

Witness accounts of her trying to "look like a shopper" would lead a person to think she wanted to trick the cops responding into thinking she wasn't involved, why else would she do that except to get them to turn their backs on her so she could kill them while they focused on hubby? Her blowing her "cover" to kill Wilcox screwed that up...how much more of a picture do you need painted? they were explicitly looking to kill cops, Wilcox got in the way and potentially saved police lives...will we ever know for sure? nope, but it makes sense

Wasn't her "cover" as an ordinary shopper with a mohawk blown when she helped kill two police officers across the street?

As is often the case, the witness accounts may have made sense to themselves at the time but when included in the overall sequence of events it is extremely unlikely that posing as a shopper, if that's what happened, would have much of a chance of fooling supposedly trained police officers.

I posted in this thread because I think we will be far worse off as a society if we encourage (label as a hero) legally/illegally armed civilians to involved themselves in any event they perceive as criminal, threatening to others, etc. It will inevitably lead to more of the same unfortunate situations that trained officers with legal authority find themselves in, such as killing children with toy guns, shooting up cars driven by confused old ladies, or getting spooked and shooting the neighbor in the dark of night.

Plus, I just don't see this guy as any type of hero or being courageous. I honestly feel he was foolish and accomplished nothing by intervening.